What can be said of Mohammad and St Paul?

[wwolverine]

Well Mohammad was illeterate as most muslims say hence no scope for advancement unless he became a landlord or owner of camels and sheep.
Paul was well educated by the most famous teacher of his time Gameliel, having great scope for making it big in his time.

Mohammad got changed after conversion to islam, ie he started killing people who did not accept him.
Paul became a changed man, from a killing prosecutor to a humble person who went out preaching the word of God to all.

Mohammad was converted by an angel who seems to have appeared to him and forced him to read something ( well we know he was illeterate.
Paul was converted on his way to Damascus by the voice of God saying ; Paul why are you prosecuting me? a flash of light was seen which almost blinded him.

You may add more to these.

 

[MyzTek]

Well Mohammad was illeterate as most muslims say hence no scope for advancement unless he became a landlord or owner of camels and sheep.

Another career course open to Mohammed would have been as a poet/bard, a respected role in his culture. Mecca was a crossroads of trade and he was, by all accounts, a business man.

Paul was well educated by the most famous teacher of his time Gameliel, having great scope for making it big in his time.

Indeed Paul was privileged, persecuted the Church, and then repented and became a “big time” promoter of the Good News.

Mohammad got changed after conversion to islam, ie he started killing people who did not accept him.

Actually at first he tried to stop the killing, it was several years before he allowed Muslims to kill non-believers or took up arms in battle.

Paul became a changed man, from a killing prosecutor to a humble person who went out preaching the word of God to all.

Yes, he did!

Mohammad was converted by an angel who seems to have appeared to him and forced him to read something ( well we know he was illeterate.

That was Mohammed’s first revelation, I’m not sure it was when he was “converted.” Maybe some of the Muslims on here can clear that up?

Paul was converted on his way to Damascus by the voice of God saying ; Paul why are you prosecuting me? a flash of light was seen which almost blinded him.

He was blinded, and had to go to Ananias to be healed.

You may add more to these.

 

[famdigy]

Well Mohammad was illeterate as most muslims say hence no scope for advancement unless he became a landlord or owner of camels and sheep.
Paul was well educated by the most famous teacher of his time Gameliel, having great scope for making it big in his time.

Mohammad got changed after conversion to islam, ie he started killing people who did not accept him.
Paul became a changed man, from a killing prosecutor to a humble person who went out preaching the word of God to all.

Mohammad was converted by an angel who seems to have appeared to him and forced him to read something ( well we know he was illeterate.
Paul was converted on his way to Damascus by the voice of God saying ; Paul why are you prosecuting me? a flash of light was seen which almost blinded him.

You may add more to these.

It’s regrettable that even today Muslims know very little about their prophet. For example they believe he was Illiterate and propagate this misinformation, when in reality he was well educated, could read and write and speak in excess of 70 languages.

Certainly, there are opposing views of the Prophet (pbuh &hf) and his role in history, one set of records portray him as a killer and cruel person, while another set of records describe him in a completely opposite light.

Many Christians I find will criticize the Prophet based on one view without considering the validity of the other. Ultimately the Muslims are responsible for propagating this misinformation.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

There’s actually a book out - I can’t remember the title, though - that presents a mock debate between Mohammad and St. Paul. Like a real moderated debate, with timed responses and all.

 

[dzheremi]

he…could read and write and speak in excess of 70 languages.

I have never heard this particular claim. What is its source? What were the 70+ languages? Is there a list or partial list somewhere? What is the evidence of his fluency?

 

[famdigy]

I have never heard this particular claim. What is its source? What were the 70+ languages? Is there a list or partial list somewhere? What is the evidence of his fluency?

the controversy is around the word Ummi which they have translated to illiterate / unlettered. The inhabitants of makkah were also referred to as Ummis, abbreviated from the Title Makkah had among the arabian towns. Umm al-qura (mother of all towns). Therefore the inhabitants of Makkah (Umm al-qura) were also referred to as Ummis.

they’re not specific about what the 70+ languages are, however there are hadiths which indicate he spoke hebrew and Farsi.

Narrated Ja’far ibn Muhammd al-sufi: he asked Imam Ridha (as), why was the Prophet (pbuh&hf) called the Ummi prophet?

the Imam Asked: what do the people say about this
Ja’far replied: they claim he was called Ummi because he could not write or read.
Imam said: They lie, Allah curse them. How and Allah (swt) says in his book

“He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca (Ummis) a Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error.”

how can he teach them what he does not know?, by Allah, the Messenger of Allah (pbuh&hf) can read and write in seventy three (73) languages, but he was named Ummi because he was from Makkah, and Makkah was the mother of all the towns (umm al-qura) and this is what Allah said " that you may warn the Mother of the towns [Umm al-qura] and those around it…" [42:7].

Source: Shaikh Saduq, ilal al-shara’ih vol.1. page 125.

 

[dzheremi]

Interesting. So this is a Shi’a belief only? I wish I had heard about it before. It is much more interesting to me than the idea that Muhammad was illiterate and that this “fact” substantiates the claim that the Qur’an is a miracle.

Thanks for the information.

 

[bpbasilphx]

One of the most important things:

St. Paul was NOT a pedophile,as was the other.

 

[famdigy]

Interesting. So this is a Shi’a belief only? I wish I had heard about it before. It is much more interesting to me than the idea that Muhammad was illiterate and that this “fact” substantiates the claim that the Qur’an is a miracle.

Thanks for the information.

Yes it is for the most part, although there are minority sects like Sufis and some small branches of the Sunni sect who came to the conclusion that Muhammad (pbuh&hf) could read and write. For the most part though, Muslims are confused to say the least and the majority of them also believe he either died a natural death or was poisoned by a Jewish woman, while ignoring the evidence that he was poisoned by the people close to him.

And even though this is a Shia belief, it’s true that for every shia belief, there is a counterpart of that belief in Sunni hadiths. For example, we believe he could read and write based on many hadiths we have, in the sunni counterparts we also find hadiths where the prophet requested people bring him a pen and paper so that he would write for them. When you look at the evidence from both sides and especially when they corroborate one another, this gives weight to and helps strengthen our argument.

 

[jakasaki]

Yes it is for the most part, although there are minority sects like Sufis and some small branches of the Sunni sect who came to the conclusion that Muhammad (pbuh&hf) could read and write. For the most part though, Muslims are confused to say the least and the majority of them also believe he either died a natural death or was poisoned by a Jewish woman, while ignoring the evidence that he was poisoned by the people close to him.

And even though this is a Shia belief, it’s true that for every shia belief, there is a counterpart of that belief in Sunni hadiths. For example, we believe he could read and write based on many hadiths we have, in the sunni counterparts we also find hadiths where the prophet requested people bring him a pen and paper so that he would write for them. When you look at the evidence from both sides and especially when they corroborate one another, this gives weight to and helps strengthen our argument.

Hi Famidigy, nice to see you back here.

As you know, we have talked about the “ummi” word in other threads and many of us believe that mohamad was **not **illeterate but the word “ummi” meant “Gentile”.

Also, if you read the Sunni hadiths, he wasn’t “illitarate” and these hadiths we have posted before. When I get caught up on the hadith thread I created, we will discuss this again.

Anyway, this thing about mohamad speaking/understanding/reading 70 languages is new to me.

I would think that since mohamad was around and exposed to Jews, Greeks, Arabs and a few other languages, he would have picked up on them, but fluent on 70 languages…

 

[ralphinal]

70 is an aweful lot of languages, even if they are counting dialects as separate tongues

 

[dzheremi]

70 is a huge number of languages/dialects, and the lack of any hard evidence makes me think that this particular idea probably developed as a sort of Islamic hagiography surrounding Muhammad, not an attempt at a factual claim about the his linguistic prowess. Had he really been such a polyglot, it would have been a historic achievement that certainly would have been recorded in non-Islamic literature. Most polyglots seem to top out in the 15-20 range; the most proficient I have ever personally met spoke 25, and he certainly admitted that his fluency was not anywhere near even across the range, e.g., Spanish, Russian, Hindi, etc. he could speak with a high level of fluency, but he only knew enough of many other languages to have very basic conversations. Is this enough to say that he really speaks (let alone reads and writes, to keep it in line with Famdigy’s claim about Muhammad) all those languages? I guess it depends on who is making the claim and why. If I were trying to make myself look like the smartest, most perfect man in the universe (), I could certainly claim to speak more than the four languages I’ve had lessons in, based on bits and pieces of various languages I’ve worked with over the past few years…

Take such claims (about Muhammad or anyone) with a grain or twenty of salt.

 

[famdigy]

Hi Famidigy, nice to see you back here.

As you know, we have talked about the “ummi” word in other threads and many of us believe that mohamad was **not **illeterate but the word “ummi” meant “Gentile”.

Also, if you read the Sunni hadiths, he wasn’t “illitarate” and these hadiths we have posted before. When I get caught up on the hadith thread I created, we will discuss this again.

Anyway, this thing about mohamad speaking/understanding/reading 70 languages is new to me.

I would think that since mohamad was around and exposed to Jews, Greeks, Arabs and a few other languages, he would have picked up on them, but fluent on 70 languages…

thanks Jak, good to see you too. Actually there’s a difference of opinion on what the word “ummi” means. According to the school of Ahlul-Bayt however (12er shia theology). It means a native of Makka. I agree he wasn’t illiterate and the sunni hadiths only confirm what we believe about his literacy.

The idea of our Prophet being illiterate and propagated by most Muslims today was part of the Ummayid effort to slander the prophet and take away from his true image. We believe the prophet’s true character and teachings were preserved and taught by the infallible imams from his household, the Ahlul-bayt whose teachings the Shia school of thought is modeled after.

I don’t know if there are any hadiths where the prophet (pbuh&hf) spoke in other languages, it would be interesting to find out what languages he spoke in publicly. As for the prophet having the ability to read and write in 70+ languages, this is one of the many miracles of our Prophet.

 

[StrawberryJam]

What books did he have at his disposal that were written in 70 plus languages? Who taught him these languages?

 

[famdigy]

What books did he have at his disposal that were written in 70 plus languages? Who taught him these languages?

he didn’t have any books at his disposal, the prophet did not learn from another human. he was taught by God himself, refer to the first 17 verses of Surah 53.

By the Star when it goes down―
(1) Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled,
(2) Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.
(3) It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:
(4) He was taught by one mighty in Power,
(5) Endued with Wisdom: For he appeared (in stately form)
(6) While he was in the highest part of the horizon:
(7) Then he approached and came closer,
(8) And was at a distance of but two bow-lengths or (even) nearer;
(9) So did (Allah) convey the inspiration to His Servant (conveyed) what He (meant) to convey.
(10) The (Prophet’s) (mind and) heart in no way falsified that which he saw.
(11) Will ye then dispute with him concerning what he saw? (12) For indeed he saw him at a second descent.
(13) Near the Lote-tree beyond which none may pass:
(14) Near it is the Garden of Abode.
(15) Behold, the Lote-tree was shrouded (in mystery unspeakable!)
(16) (His) sight never swerved nor did it go wrong!
(17) For truly did he see of the Signs of his Lord the Greatest!

 

[StrawberryJam]

he didn’t have any books at his disposal, the prophet did not learn from another human. he was taught by God himself, refer to the first 17 verses of Surah 53.

Wouldn’t he have had a moral obligation to translate the Koran into all the languages he was literate in then?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

he didn’t have any books at his disposal, the prophet did not learn from another human. he was taught by God himself, refer to the first 17 verses of Surah 53.

I believe most religions with prophets at their center believe God teaches and endows them with wisdom and knowledge, through one method or another, although the verses you provided do not seem to say that Mohammad knew 70 languages.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I believe most religions with prophets at their center believe God teaches and endows them with wisdom and knowledge, through one method or another, although the verses you provided do not seem to say that Mohammad knew 70 languages.

Let’s overlook the minor fact that someone else would have had to be fluent in the same number of languages to know that Mohammad actually did have such a vast grasp of them. Unless those passages are pure and simple naked assersions without evidence…

 

[Kadaveri]

Famdigy’s beliefs about Muhammad are well outside the mainstream. It’s not an insult at all to believe Muhammad was illiterate (which he almost certainly was), the vast majority of people in the 7th Century were illiterate. I don’t know of any credible evidence that Muhammad spoke any language other than Arabic.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Let’s overlook the minor fact that someone else would have had to be fluent in the same number of languages to know that Mohammad actually did have such a vast grasp of them.

That’s a good point, actually - how would we know he spoke these languages unless there is recorded instances where someone heard him speak these languages and could understand him in this context? For example, when it is said that the apostles spoke in tongues it meant that any one who listened to them could understand them in their own language, and it is recorded that this crowd included “Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians…” (Acts 2:9-11), so we know that we have a frame of reference for this.