What Can Christians Learn From Judaism?

[Bubba_Switzler]

History has a way of following its own logic. Christianity was born from Judaism but then followed its own path, independently. This might have been inevitable, given the split of opinion on Jesus, but it was vastly exageraged by the war between Jerusalem and Rome which led to Roman antisemitism which led to Christian antisemitism. Almost from the begninning, Christians sought to differentiate themselves from Jews in the eyes of Romans, which was further exagerated by Constantine and other Roman influences on Christianity.

The question I want to pose here is this: Did something of value get lost in this divorce? I don’t think that modern Judaism has a special claim to faith in the OT/Hebrew Bible but many Christian denominations (Catholicism included) struggle to reconcile the NT with the OT. They are not as incongruous as Jews claim, but not as cleanly continuous as Christians claim.

I wonder if Christianity threw too much of Judaism overboard and if the experience of Judaism since the schism is of value to Christianity. It seems to me that Judaism has moved considerably toward Jesus positions on the Torah without giving him, or Christianity credit. But it also seems that the wisdom of the Talmud might be of relevance to Christians.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

History has a way of following its own logic. Christianity was born from Judaism but then followed its own path, independently. This might have been inevitable, given the split of opinion on Jesus, but it was vastly exageraged by the war between Jerusalem and Rome which led to Roman antisemitism which led to Christian antisemitism. Almost from the begninning, Christians sought to differentiate themselves from Jews in the eyes of Romans, which was further exagerated by Constantine and other Roman influences on Christianity.

The question I want to pose here is this: Did something of value get lost in this divorce? I don’t think that modern Judaism has a special claim to faith in the OT/Hebrew Bible but many Christian denominations (Catholicism included) struggle to reconcile the NT with the OT. They are not as incongruous as Jews claim, but not as cleanly continuous as Christians claim.

I wonder if Christianity threw too much of Judaism overboard and if the experience of Judaism since the schism is of value to Christianity. It seems to me that Judaism has moved considerably toward Jesus positions on the Torah without giving him, or Christianity credit. But it also seems that the wisdom of the Talmud might be of relevance to Christians.

You should check out the book: “Salvation is from the Jews”

by Roy Shoeman.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

You should check out the book: “Salvation is from the Jews” by Roy Shoeman.

Yes, this is on my reading list now. (Perhaps you were the one who mentioned it in another thread?)

Can you tell us a little of his points/argument?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Yes, this is on my reading list now. (Perhaps you were the one who mentioned it in another thread?)

Can you tell us a little of his points/argument?

He’s a Jewish convert.

Here’s a summary with reviews from amazon:

Product Description
The book traces the role of Judaism and the Jewish people in God’s plan for the salvation of mankind, from Abraham through the Second Coming, as revealed by the Catholic faith and by a thoughtful examination of history. It will give Christians a deeper understanding of Judaism, both as a religion in itself and as a central component of Christian salvation.
To Jews it reveals the incomprehensible importance, nobility and glory that Judaism most truly has. It examines the unique and central role Judaism plays in the destiny of the world. It documents that throughout history attacks on Jews and Judaism have been rooted not in Christianity, but in the most anti-Christian of forces.

Areas addressed include: the Messianic prophecies in Jewish scripture; the anti-Christian roots of Nazi anti-Semitism; the links between Nazism and Arab anti-Semitism; the theological insights of major Jewish converts; and the role of the Jews in the Second Coming.

From the Publisher
Roy Schoeman grew up studying Judaism under the most prominent Rabbis in American Judaism. After receiving a B.S. from M.I.T. and an M.B.A. from Harvard Business School, he taught at Harvard. His conversion to Catholicism led to a dramatic refocus of his activities.

amazon.com/Salvation-Jews-Role-Judaism-History/dp/089870975X

 

[trdchubi]

I guess in my humble opinion the existence of Israel, the Jewish people, and Judaism tells of one plain and simple truth towards the Christians.

“The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is steadfast with His words.
He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He is a faithful and a very patient God. He remains true with His every words”.

Will you serve a God who changes His mind?

 

[ForMary]

I guess in my humble opinion the existence of Israel, the Jewish people, and Judaism tells of one plain and simple truth towards the Christians.

“The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is steadfast with His words.
He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He is a faithful and a very patient God. He remains true with His every words”.

Will you serve a God who changes His mind?

Whoa, how did you get from A to B?

God chose Israel to be a light unto nations of the one true living God.

Israel broke itself into groups; according to their righteousness (Pharisees, Essenes, for example), turning their back on sinners; “outcasts.”

Jesus went to those “outcasts” cleansed them to bring the people of Israel together again to shine the light of God on others, when they would not, Jesus chose another 12 and sent them to all the nations in the world to be the New Israel. (ok…the New Israel might be a stretch…sometimes I get carried away)

A covenant was made with Abraham, then one was made with David, did God change his mind?

But to answer the initial question of this thread; we can learn a heck of a lot from Judaism!

 

[Robbinson]

I’ll echo the recommendaton of Salvation is from the Jews - great book. Another great one is Michael Brown’s answering Jewish Objections to Jesus. While the latter is an apologetic work, it provides tremendous insight on Jewish beliefs, faith and the basis of Christian thought in the Hebrew scriptures and the Talmud.

I believe that an understanding of the Hebrew scriptures is critical to a fuller understanding of the New Testatment. Jesus and all 12 of his diciples were Jews and most of the New Testament was written for a jewish audience. Much of the dialogue and word play in the New Testament is based upon the Old Testament scriptures. For example, the “keys to the kingdom” (a heavily disputed passage regarding Peter is consistent passages from Isaiah regarding the office of the prime minister (also given the “keys”). Pentacost (the giving the Holy Spirit) coincides with the Shavout (the celebration of the giving of the Mosaic Law to the Jews - see the parallel?).

In addition, understanding Isaiah 53 and Wisdom 22 provide a better understanding of Jesus’ role as the suffering servant and the Jews reactions to him (fortold in scripture).

Christianity started as a sect of judaism - in fact, the early Christians were so Jewish that there was serious debate (recorded in Acts) about whether Gentile believers would have to become Jewish in order to be Christian.

I agree with you premise that the separation of Christianity and Judaism was exacerbated by the political situation. But also by the animosity of the Jews to the Christians (claiming to still be Jews at that time); and the increasing percentage of Christians with Gentile/Pagan backgrounds as the gospel spread.

Today’s rabbinic judaism is pretty different from the scriptural judaism of Jesus’ day - but much can be learned and shared even today between these two faiths which each worship the same God and both pray for the coming (or returning) of the Messiah.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[trdchubi]

Whoa, how did you get from A to B?

God chose Israel to be a light unto nations of the one true living God.

Israel broke itself into groups; according to their righteousness (Pharisees, Essenes, for example), turning their back on sinners; “outcasts.”

Jesus went to those “outcasts” cleansed them to bring the people of Israel together again to shine the light of God on others, when they would not, Jesus chose another 12 and sent them to all the nations in the world to be the New Israel. (ok…the New Israel might be a stretch…sometimes I get carried away)

A covenant was made with Abraham, then one was made with David, did God change his mind?

But to answer the initial question of this thread; we can learn a heck of a lot from Judaism!

Yes we know the Covenant with Abraham and the Covenant with David. God’s own credibility is at stake.He made sure both covenants came to pass.

The Covenant with David was made through the Prophet Nathan.
The Covenant with Abraham was made through the prophets Amos, Jeremiah, Joel, Elisha etc.

Im glad that the Lord Jesus chose another twelve to bring forth the Gentiles into his kingdom.

Are we not glad that the Christian (descendants of David) also serves the Mighty God of Israel(descendants of Abraham)?

God message is clear, the descendants of David and the people in his ancient nation will continue to exist.

 

[Hisalone]

You should check out the book: “Salvation is from the Jews”

by Roy Shoeman.

Two books:
“COPERNICUS AND THE JEWS”. by Daniel Gruber.
“Homecoming” - Our Return to Biblical Roots
Chuck Cohen

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

“COPERNICUS AND THE JEWS”. by Daniel Gruber.

This one looks very promising.

amazon.com/Separation-Church-Faith-Copernicus-Jews/dp/0966925351

Have you read it? Can you tell us more? There is not much in the reviews on Amazon.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I found this:

tikkunministries.org/reviews/copjews.asp

He says: “One would never learn [from Gruber] that the Roman Catholic Church absolutely repudiated replacement theology in Nostre Atate embraced by the Second Vatican Council in 1968.”

(Current CC says “Israel is the priestly people of God…”. But this raises the interesting question: if all of Israel were to accept Jesus as Messiah, would would be Israel’s role in Christianity?)

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Two books:
“COPERNICUS AND THE JEWS”. by Daniel Gruber.
“Homecoming” - Our Return to Biblical Roots
Chuck Cohen

I just finished Copernicus and the Jews. It is mildly anti-Catholic but nevertheless he makes some great points. One of his most interesting points is that both Christians and Jews underestimate the extent that the Jews did, in fact, enbrace Jesus.

Also, while he is deeply critical of anti-semitism in Christianity from 2AD on, he debunks the myth that the NT is anti-Semitic. The main accusation (in addition to the simplistic notion that Christians were, and sometimes still are, anti-semitic and therefore Christianity must be) comes from John’s repeated disparaging references to “the Jews”. What Gruber shows is that each and every one of these references are to the Jewish authorities, not to the common Jews.

There is one elephant in the room that Gruber completely ignores, perhaps because it occurs after the end of the NT. Namely the Jewish war with Rome. Gruber rightly states that “Chrisianity” of Acts was thoroughly Jewish and headquartered in Jerusalem. Then, somehow magically, it ends up centered in Rome and Constantinople and detached from Judaism. What happened? Well, the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple, in the first war, and the end of Israel, in the second. What were Christians supposed to do in that situation?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I agree with you premise that the separation of Christianity and Judaism was exacerbated by the political situation. But also by the animosity of the Jews to the Christians (claiming to still be Jews at that time); and the increasing percentage of Christians with Gentile/Pagan backgrounds as the gospel spread.

Do you think this is something that can or ought to be repaired? Or is there too much water under the bridge already. I have a hard time imagining anything more than the most polite ecunimisn between Jews and Catholics today, like each thinks the other is crazy but smiles politely anyway.

Today’s rabbinic judaism is pretty different from the scriptural judaism of Jesus’ day - but much can be learned and shared even today between these two faiths which each worship the same God and both pray for the coming (or returning) of the Messiah.

I would like to hear more of your thoughts on this. The conventional wisdom is that Christianity is based on Judaism but if you lay both side by side they are, I think, more like siblings because Judaism went through enormous changes after the destruciton of the Temple.

 

[Robbinson]

Do you think this is something that can or ought to be repaired? Or is there too much water under the bridge already. I have a hard time imagining anything more than the most polite ecunimisn between Jews and Catholics today, like each thinks the other is crazy but smiles politely anyway.

The rift/annimosity between many Jews and Catholics has been reduced since Vatican II. The Church has done much (and probably can do more) to address negative perceptions among many Jews regarding the “christianity’s” persecution of the Jews (I quote “christianity” (with a lowercase “c”) because, ironically, to be “Christian” is to love the Jews - but many perverted the gospel in the name of "christianity) and some of the Church’s statements regarding reducing evangelical efforts have been well received by the Jewish community. (Ironically, on this latter point, I personally support spreading the gospel, respectfully, to the Jewish people - that can be a separate thread, perhaps).

I think real progress and healing will occur through divine intervention - we know from Zechariah that ultimately, the Jewish people will mourn for the one whom they have pierced and call on the name of the Lord. This is echoed in Romans 11. That is when there will be real reconcilliation.

I would like to hear more of your thoughts on this. The conventional wisdom is that Christianity is based on Judaism but if you lay both side by side they are, I think, more like siblings because Judaism went through enormous changes after the destruciton of the Temple.

Christianity is not only based upon Judaism, but I would say it is the fullfillment of Judaism. But to your point - yes, Christianity is the fullfment and natural extension of “scriptural” judaism (the judaism described in the Hebrew scriptures. After the destruction of the second Temple, the eradication of the Sanhedrin and the inability to continue the Levitical sacrificial system (whcih constituted a majority of the Mosaic law) came the birth, in earnest, of rabbinic judaism. That is quite different today, and considerably less messianic, then the scriptural judaism of the period before Christ (and as reflected in the Talmud in the periods before Christ).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The rift/annimosity between many Jews and Catholics has been reduced since Vatican II. The Church has done much (and probably can do more) to address negative perceptions among many Jews regarding the “christianity’s” persecution of the Jews (I quote “christianity” (with a lowercase “c”) because, ironically, to be “Christian” is to love the Jews - but many perverted the gospel in the name of "christianity) and some of the Church’s statements regarding reducing evangelical efforts have been well received by the Jewish community. (Ironically, on this latter point, I personally support spreading the gospel, respectfully, to the Jewish people - that can be a separate thread, perhaps).

I think that the Church’s efforts have been two parts public relations and one part promise not to evangalize Jews. Of course, recognizing that the OT covenants are still in force (a significant theological concession) and the Jewish origin of Christianity (a historical fact) was serious but these were merely corrections of errors (if I dare say that in regard to the Church). But it seems that the real, practical issue was that of evangilization. Which is a shame because it means that there will be no serious theological discussions, just a theological cold war.

Which leaves…

I think real progress and healing will occur through divine intervention - we know from Zechariah that ultimately, the Jewish people will mourn for the one whom they have pierced and call on the name of the Lord. This is echoed in Romans 11. That is when there will be real reconcilliation.

It’s hard to imagine anything else that would break this impasse.

Which is sad, because I think Christianity lost something when it became unmoored from Judaism and modern Judaism seems almost to define itself by its theological hostility to Christianity. (I roll my eyes when I hear Jews assert, matter of factly, that Jesus cannot be God as if it were written in the Torah when in fact the Torah contains some suggestions that it occured before.)

Christianity is not only based upon Judaism, but I would say it is the fullfillment of Judaism.

Could you elaborate on this? I’ve heard this, of course, but I’d like to understand it from your perspective.

But to your point - yes, Christianity is the fullfment and natural extension of “scriptural” judaism (the judaism described in the Hebrew scriptures. After the destruction of the second Temple, the eradication of the Sanhedrin and the inability to continue the Levitical sacrificial system (whcih constituted a majority of the Mosaic law) came the birth, in earnest, of rabbinic judaism. That is quite different today, and considerably less messianic, then the scriptural judaism of the period before Christ (and as reflected in the Talmud in the periods before Christ).

It’s strange how few Jews really appreciate this. I almost feel like an intellectual bully when I point to the centrality of the Temple to “scriptural” Judaism. It’s almost cognitive dissonance.

On the other hand, Christianity has had its own cognitive dissonance in the unmooring of Christianity from Judaism (sometimes almost as if Jesus was a haplass european who was ambushed by the perfidious Jews).

 

[inJESUS]

I think the problem is that nowadays we need to explain every single sentence of the NT because we are far from the time when understanding didn’t need so much explaining because it was an extension of Jewish thought. Ignorance of Judaism and its development is a problem for humans nowadays who fail to understand many things because of the discontinuity beween Jewish and Christian thought, things you can learn about only by personal research.