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hansard
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I wonder if God can change any of the properties of the universe. For example, can God alter the physical composition of elements at the atomic level, or stop the universe from expanding?
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MindOverMatter2
Guest
If God is the source of all potential beings, then God can certainly change the nature of a contingent being. But God can only do this as far as it doesn’t contradict Gods nature to do so. I say this because i think that dynamism or change is an intrinsic aspect of a contingent being, and thus God cannot stop a thing from expanding with out stopping that thing from ceasing to exist entirely. I might be wrong however; i just have a feeling that this is in fact the case. But perhaps God can stop something from changing without it ceasing.
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4Horsemen
Guest
Would it contradict God’s nature to make Hell cease to exist? I suppose He’d have to end existence of the souls of the damned and demons in order to do this,
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hansard
Guest
Here’s the ultimate extension (as far as I can see it):
Can God cause himself to cease to exist?
Can God cause himself to cease to exist?
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MindOverMatter2
Guest
Not without getting rid of freewill. And if God gets rid of freewill, then he gets rid of the very thing that allows a loving God to create “people” as we understand it. Of course, the correct ontological understanding of hell, in light of Gods nature and his relationship with people, is very important if one is to sufficiently answer you question without error.
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MindOverMatter2
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God is not an extension in space. Your understanding of God is false.
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hansard
Guest
No, no… MindOverMatter
I meant “extension” of the argument. Get it?
If we are debating what God can and cannot do, the question seems to be the ultimate extension of that debate (argument).
Here it is again, simply:
Can God will himself out of existence?
I meant “extension” of the argument. Get it?
If we are debating what God can and cannot do, the question seems to be the ultimate extension of that debate (argument).
Here it is again, simply:
Can God will himself out of existence?
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MindOverMatter2
Guest
Please accept my apology.
Can God will himself not to exist? If that is the question, then I am forced to say no; because God, by the very nature of his being, is the very act of existence in which we finitely and contingently participate. God cannot will that which is the opposite of Gods nature. It is in Gods nature to exist; and thus we find Gods perfect nature to be the root of all logical propositions.Without a perfect being, logic cannot exist, since the principle of antithesis is an intrinsic expression of reality.
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4Horsemen
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Your last sentence has piqued my curiosity. Specifically, what do you mean by “in light of Gods nature and his relationship with people”? How does that have any effect on the “ontological understanding of hell”, or as I demur in my own words, “the nature of hell”?
Isn’t hell one of those immutables? Maybe this question does not belong here. I often meander.
One might say that God has set up His own limitations and those are whatever is incompatible with both divine and natural law, if I’m understanding correctly.
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Zundrah
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Demons! Unleash me onto them! I’ll batter 'em!Sounds like a good book, but a bit more serious look at demons than the one I’m rereading: C.S. Lewis’ The Skrewtape Letters.
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MindOverMatter2
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We exist in the act of Gods being. To say that we are born into existence is really no different to saying that we are born into God. Outside of Gods being there is nothing. God is perfectly good. Thus the act of existence is perfectly good. We merely participate in that existence. God, by himself, does not justify the presence of hell, since hell is not the natural ontological state of existence; hell is not the natural intrinsic act of Gods nature, and thus hell is not an immutable place located in God somewhere. Hell exists as a consequence of evil. The existence of hell is contingent on the mind and will of people, since it is the souls of people that suffer in hell, not things or objects. That is why it doesn’t seem consistent to me to envisage the suffering of hell as being caused by somebodies location in a particular place. Hell is personal and thus spiritual, and its actuality is caused by an ultimate rejection of Gods will from the heart of humanity.Isn’t hell one of those immutables? Maybe this question does not belong here. I often meander.
One might say that God has set up His own limitations and those are whatever is incompatible with both divine and natural law, if I’m understanding correctly.
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4Horsemen
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Windfish
Guest
The only real recourse that a positive atheist has to disprove the existence of God is to show His characteristics and qualities to be logically impossible/inconsistent. This is why this thread is actually important.
Is anyone familiar with all of the arguments involving God’s omniscience, omnipotence, and all-loving nature? Or any of them compelling or true?
Is anyone familiar with all of the arguments involving God’s omniscience, omnipotence, and all-loving nature? Or any of them compelling or true?
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MindOverMatter2
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I do not deny that God is transcendent of particular forms; it is necessarily the case. I do not intend to suggest that we are God. This is impossible. But we do participate in the reality of God since we have no reality of our own. Reality is not intrinsic to our being. One could perhaps say that we are God by participation, but only if you mean that we exist through God in so far as we are actualised by Gods reality. It would be a mistake to identify the infinite nature of God with a particular finite or contingent form, since the two are not synonmous. Thus it is correct to say that Gods nature transcends us and yet somehow we exist in God at the same time while also possessing something distinct from Gods infinite nature (our particular form).
I do not see the necessary link. We are physical beings, but our qualitative moral experience is spiritual not physical. Jesus often speaks in figurative language; the bible is full of it. When Jesus says he is preparing a place in heaven, he is not speaking about this in the context of an actual 3 dimensional realm called heaven. The experience of Heaven cannot possibly be caused by the experience of a contingent being, since a created being has nothing that hasn’t been given to it by God. The experience of heaven is dependent on our experience of God; the beatific vision. That’s got nothing to do with being in a particular place at a particular time. We will no doubt be in a place where we will have these spiritual experiences. But to identify heaven or hell with a place is to miss the point. Heaven and hell is expressed through our relationship with God.
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mangy_dog
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The only thing God cannot do is contradict His own nature. So, would God do or create something that would go against His nature…no because God is omniscient and omnipotent. All of creation would be in a heap of caos if God were to contradict His nature -essence/existence.
God is the only being whose essence and existence coincide. His essence is His existence is His essence…ad eternum.
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4Horsemen
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I don’t think an atheist would get very far trying to disprove the existence of God by attempting to show that His attributes are “logically impossible/inconsistent.” S/he should come to the opposite conclusion, just by the empirical examination of the world and the self. Of course, St. Thomas Aquinas is the master to go to for the “proofs” of the existence of God. These are not proofs in the sense of the natural sciences, but “converging and convincing arguments,” which brings our minds to certainty about the truth.
Just checking the catechism is helpful to get a very short summary of how to begin ways of approaching God through the physical world–movement, becoming, contingency, and the world’s order and beauty–and the human person–moral goodness, freedom, beauty, voice of conscience and our own longing for the infinite and for pure happiness.
St Paul says of the Gentiles: “For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.” (Rom 1:19-20, Acts 14:15,17,27-28).
On the lightweight side, there is C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity who writes for those who haven’t the time or opportunity to study the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas.
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mangy_dog
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Atheists are walking, talking oximorons.
Using their free will and intellect to deny the very existence of God - who sustains their existence with His Word.
They are poor souls.
Using their free will and intellect to deny the very existence of God - who sustains their existence with His Word.
They are poor souls.
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JDaniel
Guest
Welcome Clipperride:
This is no doubt one of the biggest boondoggle arguments against God’s existence that has ever been conceived. If you consider it carefully, you’ll soon come to realize that it is also one of the most childish arguments ever conceived. Can we jump out of an airplane from 60,000 feet, without a parachute, hit the ground and walk away? Can the child who gave you the argument walk out into speeding traffic, get creamed by a motorist doing 70 mph, not be damaged in the mishap? The argument is absurd.
Without much difficulty, humans can fully get that creation is within the competence of omnipotence alone. What is creation? It is not merely causation. Creation begins with nothing and originates an utterly and completely new thing. It begins with nothing and brings matter into being, for example. Furthermore, causation can only bring that which is other than itself into Being. Only Creation can bring the creator into Being.
We, as finite, contingent being cannot even permanently sustain ourselves, much less bring ourselves into being. It is apparent that only omnipotent power can bring such a finite universe into existence. Even if science extends the lives of men many times, ultimately there will be an end to it. In such a process, men will still only be able to regard God’s Omnipotence and Power as a distant analogy. As man strives to become god, we will still only participate partially in creation in the fullest sense of that word.
The pregnant question should not be, "Can God create a rock . . . ", but rather, “Can God create and sustain a Universe?” The contingency of the Universe leads us to only one conclusion: only Omnipotence could have created it. Finite being cannot create; its causal activities presuppose already existing material upon which to operate.
God bless,
jd
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MindOverMatter2
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I can’t believe it…hes back.
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Soulewolf
Guest
According to the quantum eraser experiment, observation of a particle can change the outcome of an experiment even after the experiment has been performed. Which means that time has no effect on the collapsing of its wave function. which means that us observing the universe right now could mean that through our observation, the wave function of the “seed” was/is collapsed/collapsing and the universe was created. This also falls in line with Einstinian Relativity.
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