What can or can't a catechumen do?

[Medievalthyme]

I am going through RCIA in my parish and I’m the only one. I’ve been told by the deacon that I should go up during communion and receive a blessing. I did this a few times but then after doing some reading on my own I discovered that this is not proper because the priest gives a general blessing after communion. So I haven’t been going up with everyone; I just stay kneeling in my pew.

Well, now I have been reading that catechumens are dismissed at some point and aren’t supposed to attend the whole Mass. Is this something left up to each parish or is my parish doing something wrong? Should I say something to the deacon next time I have my class or should I just keep silent and do what I’ve been doing?

I also wonder if all the prayers are appropriate for catechumens - are there some that are only proper for baptized Catholics to say?

 

[FrDavid96]

I am going through RCIA in my parish and I’m the only one. I’ve been told by the deacon that I should go up during communion and receive a blessing. I did this a few times but then after doing some reading on my own I discovered that this is not proper because the priest gives a general blessing after communion. So I haven’t been going up with everyone; I just stay kneeling in my pew.

“In a similar way, for others who are not to be admitted to Holy Communion in accord with the norm of law, the Church’s discipline has already made clear that they should not approach Holy Communion nor receive a blessing” Prot. N. 930/08/L From the Congregation for Divine Worship at the Vatican.

There are no blessings at Communion time. At least, according to the discipline of the Church these blessings are not allowed (we all know they happen). You’re correct to stay in the pew—that’s the right thing to do.

Well, now I have been reading that catechumens are dismissed at some point and aren’t supposed to attend the whole Mass. Is this something left up to each parish or is my parish doing something wrong? Should I say something to the deacon next time I have my class or should I just keep silent and do what I’ve been doing?

Yes, there is a dismissal. This is optional. If the parish does it, then you should do likewise. If the parish does not do it (which is a legitimate option) then don’t. You might want to ask “why don’t we do it?” There’s nothing wrong with asking, but you need to know beforehand that it is optional, so by omitting the dismissal the parish is not doing anything wrong.

I also wonder if all the prayers are appropriate for catechumens - are there some that are only proper for baptized Catholics to say?

That was the one of the original reasons behind the dismissal in the first place. However, the historic context was very different in the early Church (when they had to worry about pagans posing as Christians in order to hand them over for persecution).
Feel free to join in all the prayers. There is nothing preventing you, and nothing that would make it wrong. As long as you don’t present yourself for Communion (which you already know) then there is no problem (absolutely none) with participating in all the prayers during the Eucharistic parts of the Mass.

 

[TruthSeeker319]

“In a similar way, for others who are not to be admitted to Holy Communion in accord with the norm of law, the Church’s discipline has already made clear that they should not approach Holy Communion nor receive a blessing” Prot. N. 930/08/L From the Congregation for Divine Worship at the Vatican.

Father David, what does it mean by “others who are not to be admitted to Holy Communion in accord with the norm of law?”
Does this include children?
Confirmed Catholics not in a state of grace?

In other words, is it wrong to go up for a blessing in all cases?

 

[Medievalthyme]

Thank you Father David. This answers all of my questions very well. I appreciate it.

 

[FrDavid96]

“In a similar way, for others who are not to be admitted to Holy Communion in accord with the norm of law, the Church’s discipline has already made clear that they should not approach Holy Communion nor receive a blessing” Prot. N. 930/08/L From the Congregation for Divine Worship at the Vatican.

Father David, what does it mean by “others who are not to be admitted to Holy Communion in accord with the norm of law?”
Does this include children?
Confirmed Catholics not in a state of grace?

“Others who are not to be admitted” means exactly that. Anyone else who is not eligible to receive Communion “should not approach Holy Communion nor receive a blessing”

Does it mean children? It means children who have no yet made their First Communion. (Can they be held or walk-up with mom or day? no problem, but that’s not the issue at-hand).

Confirmed or not has nothing to do with this. It’s about whether or not someone has received First Communion. On the other hand, “not in the state of Grace” is one of those ambiguous terms. I’d prefer to use a more precise “obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin” from canon 915. As stated in the letter from the CDW, they should neither approach nor receive a blessing.

In other words, is it wrong to go up for a blessing in all cases?

There are no blessings at Communion time, as far as the Church’s liturgical norms are concerned. There is just no such thing. The Roman Missal, the General Instruction, etc. nowhere, absolutely nowhere does the Church allow for blessings at Communion-time. On the other hand, the Church does very strictly prohibit adding anything to the Mass without prior approval from the Holy See.

Changes to the Mass: adding, removing, or altering anything in the Mass can only be done by the Holy See. Not even the conference of bishops or the local bishop has the authority to approve any changes to the Mass that the Holy See has not already approved (or otherwise explicitly authorized the bishops to change–and this is not one of them.)

 

[jcwit]

I’m attending RCIA at a Catholic Church in a small town. Have been attending Mass every week since last Sept. except one when I was sick. Anyway I go forward every Sunday for a Blessing by the Priest, and I have had private meetings with him plus he attends every RCIA class.

Not once has he told any of us in the class not to come forward, we cross our arms in front of our chest and receive a Blessing.

Tomorrow I receive the Sacrament of the Sick. This will be done during the class so the others can enjoy the learning experience, plus my wife will addtnd with me. I wish I could get her to join. But at this point such is not the case. She attends the Lutheran Church. I am the old Geezer in the group, 72, everyone else is in the 30’s or younger. My kidney’s are failing. Not a good thing at all.

God Bless from a future convert, awaiting March 26th.

This whole journey has changed my life a bunch. It’s something I should have done years and years ago.

 

[Casilda]

Jcwit, how wonderful. I do hope your wife joins you but knowing the similarities in faith and practice, she may probably wonder why the bother. My husband came to love liturgical practice, the prayers, the creeds, etc, because of our time in a Lutheran Church. He is now Catholic.

Our Eastern Catholic parish also welcomes those just seeking a blessing. We bow our head down approaching the priest or deacon. They know us by name (small parish) and even children not ready for communion come up for the blessing.

 

[jcwit]

We both have friends in the Lutheran Church, I think this is the main reason she wishes to stay there, which is fine.

I usually attend early Mass “8:30am” then meet my wife at the Lutheran Church so as not to leave her in the cold, bad way to put it, but didn’t know how else to put it.

I’ve talked this over with my Priest and he thought it was a good idea, especially for my wife.

She has attended Mass with me also a number of times but does not wish to confirm. Actually I brought her from a Baptist upbringing to a Lutheran, that was quite a jump.

Of course from now on I do not take Communion at the Lutheran Church.

Sorry to sidetrack this thread.

 

[zab]

“Others who are not to be admitted” means exactly that. Anyone else who is not eligible to receive Communion “should not approach Holy Communion nor receive a blessing”

Does it mean children? It means children who have no yet made their First Communion. (Can they be held or walk-up with mom or day? no problem, but that’s not the issue at-hand).

Confirmed or not has nothing to do with this. It’s about whether or not someone has received First Communion. On the other hand, “not in the state of Grace” is one of those ambiguous terms. I’d prefer to use a more precise “obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin” from canon 915. As stated in the letter from the CDW, they should neither approach nor receive a blessing.

There are no blessings at Communion time, as far as the Church’s liturgical norms are concerned. There is just no such thing. The Roman Missal, the General Instruction, etc. nowhere, absolutely nowhere does the Church allow for blessings at Communion-time. On the other hand, the Church does very strictly prohibit adding anything to the Mass without prior approval from the Holy See.

Changes to the Mass: adding, removing, or altering anything in the Mass can only be done by the Holy See. Not even the conference of bishops or the local bishop has the authority to approve any changes to the Mass that the Holy See has not already approved (or otherwise explicitly authorized the bishops to change–and this is not one of them.)

This has long been a topic of discussion for at least 8 years and the Sacred Congregation For Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has never given a definitive response on this issue. There seems to be a difference of opinion on this practice even among clergy participating on this board. See Post

 

[utah_rose]

“Others who are not to be admitted” means exactly that. Anyone else who is not eligible to receive Communion “should not approach Holy Communion nor receive a blessing”

Does it mean children? It means children who have no yet made their First Communion. (Can they be held or walk-up with mom or day? no problem, but that’s not the issue at-hand).

Confirmed or not has nothing to do with this. It’s about whether or not someone has received First Communion. On the other hand, “not in the state of Grace” is one of those ambiguous terms. I’d prefer to use a more precise “obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin” from canon 915. As stated in the letter from the CDW, they should neither approach nor receive a blessing.

There are no blessings at Communion time, as far as the Church’s liturgical norms are concerned. There is just no such thing. The Roman Missal, the General Instruction, etc. nowhere, absolutely nowhere does the Church allow for blessings at Communion-time. On the other hand, the Church does very strictly prohibit adding anything to the Mass without prior approval from the Holy See.

Changes to the Mass: adding, removing, or altering anything in the Mass can only be done by the Holy See. Not even the conference of bishops or the local bishop has the authority to approve any changes to the Mass that the Holy See has not already approved (or otherwise explicitly authorized the bishops to change–and this is not one of them.)

I wondered about the Blessing, because I’ve seen adults go up to get a blessing, and also teenagers in our parish and adjoining ones. But there is also a parish that does a special blessing for children after the Mass is ended. This seems more appropriate.

 

[FrDavid96]

… the Sacred Congregation For Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has never given a definitive response on this issue. …

Not true.

[14.] “The regulation of the Sacred Liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, which rests specifically with the Apostolic See and, according to the norms of law, with the Bishop

[16.] “It pertains to the Apostolic See to regulate the Sacred Liturgy of the universal Church, to publish the liturgical books and to grant the recognitio for their translation into vernacular languages, as well as to ensure that the liturgical regulations, especially those governing the celebration of the most exalted celebration of the Sacrifice of the Mass, are everywhere faithfully observed”

[31.] …They [priests] ought not to detract from the profound meaning of their own ministry by corrupting the liturgical celebration either through alteration or omission, or through arbitrary additions. …

[174.] Furthermore, those actions that are brought about which are contrary to the other matters treated elsewhere in this Instruction or in the norms established by law are not to be considered of little account, but are to be numbered among the other abuses to be carefully avoided and corrected.

[175.] The things set forth in this Instruction obviously do not encompass all the violations against the Church and its discipline that are defined in the canons, in the liturgical laws and in other norms of the Church for the sake of the teaching of the Magisterium or sound tradition. Where something wrong has been committed, it is to be corrected according to the norm of law.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

 

[zab]

Not true.

[14.] “The regulation of the Sacred Liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, which rests specifically with the Apostolic See and, according to the norms of law, with the Bishop

[16.] “It pertains to the Apostolic See to regulate the Sacred Liturgy of the universal Church, to publish the liturgical books and to grant the recognitio for their translation into vernacular languages, as well as to ensure that the liturgical regulations, especially those governing the celebration of the most exalted celebration of the Sacrifice of the Mass, are everywhere faithfully observed”

[31.] …They [priests] ought not to detract from the profound meaning of their own ministry by corrupting the liturgical celebration either through alteration or omission, or through arbitrary additions. …

[174.] Furthermore, those actions that are brought about which are contrary to the other matters treated elsewhere in this Instruction or in the norms established by law are not to be considered of little account, but are to be numbered among the other abuses to be carefully avoided and corrected.

[175.] The things set forth in this Instruction obviously do not encompass all the violations against the Church and its discipline that are defined in the canons, in the liturgical laws and in other norms of the Church for the sake of the teaching of the Magisterium or sound tradition. Where something wrong has been committed, it is to be corrected according to the norm of law.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

So you disagree with another member of the clergy on this forum. The following is a quote from **Don Ruggero **on this topic. I have highlighted in bold the part that you say is untrue. This is just an exerpt. The rest is worth reading , too:

*The question is about the appropriateness of imparting blessings to individuals who come forward in the line for Communion but who indicate by a gesture that they can’t receive the Eucharist. **It’s a disputed question that has not been definitively resolved.

*** The Undersecretary for the Congregation of Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, in a letter responding to an individual, made several comments of theological opinion. They’re not without merit or value. But the letter did not constitute an official response from the Congregation. Father went on to say that the Congregation has the matter under consideration.

Until the Congregation issues a determination, the question is unresolved. Some diocesan bishops, because the bishop is the moderator of the liturgy for his diocese, have decreed that this practice is not to happen in their dioceses. The clergy of those dioceses should comply.

In other places, bishops and conferences of bishops have expressed support for this practice. Pope Benedict spoke favorably of it and Pope John Paul did it on various occasions. The Congregation has chosen…for years…to leave this matter unresolved. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13630771&postcount=9

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Anyone else who is not eligible to receive Communion “should not approach Holy Communion nor receive a blessing” As stated in the letter from the CDW, they should neither approach nor receive a blessing

There are no blessings at Communion time, as far as the Church’s liturgical norms are concerned. There is just no such thing. The Roman Missal, the General Instruction, etc. nowhere, absolutely nowhere does the Church allow for blessings at Communion-time. On the other hand, the Church does very strictly prohibit adding anything to the Mass without prior approval from the Holy See

Father, with due respect, and I have esteem for your evident competence with the various issues you capably address, please be advised that what you write is in direct opposition to the dispositions of the Conference of Bishops of England & Wales and the practices that we legitimately have in Europe. I’d be glad if you did not sweepingly indict us or the bishops on the other side of the Atlantic opposite America of wrong doing; we are glad of their leadership and our cordial relations with them. We find our actions quite licit

Norms of the papal court are a thing apart and distinct, but both Popes St John Paul II and Benedict XVI did this; I’ve heard Benedict speak on it. It’s something we implement at diocesan & parish levels. It’s something I do. We use a sign on the continent different from that used by North Americans

Celebrating the Mass: A Pastoral Introduction was published by the Bishops Conference to address matters and provide clarification on the Mass. In Number 212, page 95, we read:

Even though some in the assembly may not receive ‘sacramental’ Communion, all are united in some way by the Holy Spirit. The traditional idea of ‘spiritual’ communion is an important one to remember and reaffirm. The invitation often given at Mass to those who may not receive sacramental communion – for example children before their First Communion and adults who are not Catholics – to receive a ‘blessing’ at the moment of Communion emphasises that a deep spiritual communion is possible even when we do not share together the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ.
liturgyoffice.org.uk/Resources/GIRM/Documents/CTM.pdf

So you disagree with another member of the clergy on this forum. The following is a quote from **Don Ruggero **on this topic. I have highlighted in bold the part that you say is untrue. [Quotes removed]

I find myself a bit in the crossfire. It’s my preference not to escalate this to another series of confrontations needlessly

As zab quotes of me, I’m aware of the letter that was sent to a private person by Father Ward, the Priest Under Secretary for the Congregation of Divine Worship (CDW) and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

He wrote his reflection under the rubric that “this matter is presently under the attentive study of the Congregation” and he added that “for the present, this dicastery wishes to limit itself to the following observations”. The observations are useful but they’ve not been enacted by a positive act and we still await a definitive ruling, after 8 years.

Meanwhile, Father Ward has received company. Arthur Roche, the former Bishop of Leeds and Chairman of the Department for Christian Life & Worship of the Conference of Bishops of England & Wales, who oversaw the document I quoted above and wrote its forward, was appointed as His Grace, the Archbishop Secretary for the CDW!

Joined by a new CDW prefect, His Eminence Robert Cardinal Sarah, it is hoped that the issue could be brought to resolution.

I’ve visited with various clerics with strong opinions about this matter.

The Archdiocese of New York in the United States has a very good statement which I think sounds a balanced approach to a contentious issue that concerns the expression by gestures of what we can all agree are very different values.
*Should an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion give a blessing to one who comes forward in the Communion procession, but who does not wish to receive the Eucharist?

No. In this case, an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion should direct the individual who wishes to receive a blessing to the nearest priest or deacon. In general, the practice of giving blessings in the course of distributing Holy Communion is discouraged (see Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments, (Protocol No. 930/08/L).*
nyliturgy.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/EMHCGuidelines10.12.141.pdf

I don’t know where the original poster resides.

If she resides in the United Kingdom, the custom is well established and the poster should come forward for a blessing if she wants to. No one is forced!

If she lives on the continent, it is a norm also there but check carefully before proceeding as the gesture does vary and using a gesture of another land or culture can be very confusing to us. Eastern Catholics who wish to receive here in a Latin rite parish use a gesture identical to the gesture Americans use to indicate they want a blessing rather than receiving

If she lives in USA…I shall leave that to the American clergy to sort out. In the Archdiocese of New York it’s “discouraged.” I know some bishops have banned and reprobated the practice. While I appreciate the rationale they present, it really has to be understood as proper to the limits of their jurisdiction. It does not apply beyond. If the bishop orders it not to happen, it should not happen by clergy or laity in that diocese. If he allows it or does not forbid it, it is the discretion of the priest. If the priest allows it, it is the discretion of the person to go forward or not

Beyond that, I prefer not to discuss differing opinions as they serve little purpose in the absence of authoritative pronouncement

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I’m attending RCIA at a Catholic Church in a small town. Have been attending Mass every week since last Sept. except one when I was sick. Anyway I go forward every Sunday for a Blessing by the Priest, and I have had private meetings with him plus he attends every RCIA class.

Not once has he told any of us in the class not to come forward, we cross our arms in front of our chest and receive a Blessing.

Tomorrow I receive the Sacrament of the Sick. This will be done during the class so the others can enjoy the learning experience, plus my wife will addtnd with me. I wish I could get her to join. But at this point such is not the case. She attends the Lutheran Church. I am the old Geezer in the group, 72, everyone else is in the 30’s or younger. My kidney’s are failing. Not a good thing at all.

God Bless from a future convert, awaiting March 26th.

This whole journey has changed my life a bunch. It’s something I should have done years and years ago.

This is a lovely post that you make. I bless you from afar and ask that the Lord’s presence will bring you grace and consolation. In the anointing, may you receive strength and healing and comfort. I will pray for you and for your wife.

I am retired now but there is a wonderful writing on Catholic Lutheran Relations done by the Joint Commission on Catholic Lutheran Relations. On the Catholic side are officials named by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, which is a dicastery of the Vatican.

It is an amazing document prepared for us to JOINTLY commemorate the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. It is a whole new analysis of the events with a much more positive and balanced perspective. It is a big document, but you and your wife might enjoy reading it and sharing it with others in both of your communities.

Our Holy Father will go to Sweden for Reformation Sunday and begin a year long commemoration through to Reformation Sunday 2017. There will be special surprises for 2018. Ecumenism was the great work of my life, more than teaching.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html

 

[FrDavid96]

So you disagree with another member of the clergy on this forum. The following is a quote from **Don Ruggero **on this topic. I have highlighted in bold the part that you say is untrue. This is just an exerpt. The rest is worth reading , too:

I don’t care for proxy debates where one person quotes a third party as if that third party had posted a reply to me or as if I were posting a reply to that third party.

It is unfair to everyone involved.

I did not address it the first time you posted and I’m not going to address it now either.

If I have something to say in reply to what another party wrote, I’ll respond to that party.

If that other party has something to say to me, he’s welcome to respond to me.

 

[FrDavid96]

Father, with due respect, and I have esteem for your evident competence with the various issues you capably address, please be advised that what you write is in direct opposition to the dispositions of the Conference of Bishops of England & Wales and the practices that we legitimately have in Europe. I’d be glad if you did not sweepingly indict us or the bishops on the other side of the Atlantic opposite America of wrong doing; we are glad of their leadership and our cordial relations with them. We find our actions quite licit

I deleted most of the original simply for the sake of space as it was a long post. The whole can still be read in its entirety,

I understand what you’re saying about the bishops conferences making decisions.

However, as I understand it the conference of bishops of any given country/region can only propose changes to the Mass. Any changes require the recognition of the Holy See before they can be implemented (excepting ad experimentum but that’s beyond the scope here.)

Therefore, what I don’t see is how changes can be made without that official recognition from the Holy See.

If the Holy See has given such recognition to this for the U.K., I’m not aware. As far as I do know, no such thing has happened in the U.S., and unless it happened very recently I think it’s safe to say that I would have heard about it.

Here is where I see the difference between the 2 sides of the discussion:

The letter from the CDW does quote the law (even though indirectly).

On the other hand, the guidelines from the Conference do not cite any justification for this from the liturgical laws/norms of the Church or an adaptation that has been requested and approved. If such exists, I’m unaware.

The CDW letter says “…the Church’s discipline has already made clear that they should not approach Holy Communion nor receive a blessing.”

Now, I don’t know where “the Church’s discipline has already been made clear.” And frankly, ever since the letter was posted here, I’ve always wondered about that. There is no citation or reference given. However, from my perspective, I’m willing to trust that since the under secretary of the CDW sees it that way, then if I see it the same way, I can continue to do so unless or until something is proven to the contrary.

Am I missing something?

(By the way, Wednesdays in Lent are rather busy in my schedule, so my future response might not be timely).

 

[Medievalthyme]

Not true.

[14.] “The regulation of the Sacred Liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, which rests specifically with the Apostolic See and, according to the norms of law, with the Bishop

[16.] “It pertains to the Apostolic See to regulate the Sacred Liturgy of the universal Church, to publish the liturgical books and to grant the recognitio for their translation into vernacular languages, as well as to ensure that the liturgical regulations, especially those governing the celebration of the most exalted celebration of the Sacrifice of the Mass, are everywhere faithfully observed”

[31.] …They [priests] ought not to detract from the profound meaning of their own ministry by corrupting the liturgical celebration either through alteration or omission, or through arbitrary additions. …

[174.] Furthermore, those actions that are brought about which are contrary to the other matters treated elsewhere in this Instruction or in the norms established by law are not to be considered of little account, but are to be numbered among the other abuses to be carefully avoided and corrected.

[175.] The things set forth in this Instruction obviously do not encompass all the violations against the Church and its discipline that are defined in the canons, in the liturgical laws and in other norms of the Church for the sake of the teaching of the Magisterium or sound tradition. Where something wrong has been committed, it is to be corrected according to the norm of law.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

I am going to continue to stay seated until I am able to receive the Eucharist. It didn’t set well with me to go up for a blessing for some reason and now I think the reason is that it muddies the pure intent of the Mass. I think people started going up for a blessing because in our modern culture everyone feels they need to be included in everything and it feels weird to stay behind when everyone else is participating, but I know that the Mass is not about us - it’s about worshiping God. I have a little laminated card that I can read during this time. It reminds me that even though I cannot receive the body and blood of our Lord, I can still be with Him and I can still receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[zab]

I don’t care for proxy debates where one person quotes a third party as if that third party had posted a reply to me or as if I were posting a reply to that third party.

**It is unfair to everyone involved.
**

And it is unfair to the rest of us board members as well when someone as yourself says that it is not true that the matter of receiving blessing in the Communion line is unresolved. Don Ruggero is right and I agree with him that it serves little purpose to discuss differing opinions in the absence of authoritative pronouncement. I will just say that it is confusing not only to the OP but to a lot of people who question the authority of good priests who do not discourage this practice. When my own lax daughter asked me what she should do when attending a funeral recently, I told her it would be better for her to remain in the pew even though Father made it seem ok to approach for a blessing. Even if he didn’t mind, there would sure to be others who would be annoyed by what they believe is liturgical abuse. It is kind of odd, that once our Liturgies were plagued with liturgical abuses and now that they have all been corrected, there are still people who look for the littlest things to complain about. Well, I have had my say so I, too, will refrain from further discussing this topic on this thread.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

The thread is now closed to prevent the discussion from becoming overheated. Thank you for the discussion, everyone.