What Can or Should the Catholic Church Do if Gendercide Continues?

[JimG]

Sex selection abortion indeed has and will continue to warp societies. China’s one-child policy, for example, turned into a gendercide policy against girls. See this article from Catholic World Report.

“Females of all ages have suffered disproportionately from the government restrictions. Mosher writes, “Within a few years of the introduction of the one-child policy, hundreds of thousands of baby girls were being drowned, smothered, or abandoned at birth each year…even in relatively wealthy areas like the Pearl River Delta, where female infanticide was unknown in earlier times.””

The Catholic Church has been like a voice in the wilderness speaking out against such policies.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

that’s because I heard a story about this on NPR a couple of weeks ago.

My general sense is that infanticide and sex-selective abortion is more common than it used to be, but I don’t really know. Well of course sex-selective abortion is recent because it depends on ultrasound technology. But I have always thought that most people around the world, regardless of culture or religion, have historically valued children, maybe boys a little more than girls, but not to the point of killing the girls.

So I wonder if maybe this is a phenomenon of a culture clash - a traditional sense that boys are more valuable than girls, combined with a crass modern materialism and utilitarianism.

That doesn’t sound like a cultural ‘clash’ it sounds like 2 trends meeting and giving each other more momentum.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

AngryAtheist ,
Why does your anger seem to be so selective ? How willing are you to proclaim all abortion is wrong ? These gender selective abortions in China & India are " warping societies " but the 40 -50 million abortions in the U. S. are NOT warping U. S. Society ? How about all the abortions in the west besides the U.S. , why aren’t those societies being warped ? How do you explain the birth rate in Europe , at a time when Europe has never been so prosperous and secure ? Europe is certainly dyeing at a much faster rate than China & India ( and they are not really dyeing ) .
In the U.S. there is a ’ holocaust " in the Black community, it’s called abortion ( and to a slightly lesser extent it is also happening in the Hispanic community ) .
Why does it seem that abortion based on gender draws your ire but abortion as "birth control ( i.e., to allow for sex without consequences ) doesn’t elicit a peep ?
The Catholic Church has always condemned abortion , why do they have to do anything more ?
In your posts you keep asking what more can the Church do , I’m curious , how much more do you want the Church to do in opposing same-sex marriage ?

Why would whether or not Gay Marriage is legal effect the ratio of baby girls at birth and how many of them survive to adulthood?

Do you think that gay women will have more baby girls (and presumably boys) if they are not allowed to marry each other?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

AngryAtheist ,
What part of “free will” don’t you understand ? There are seven deadly sins , which is the greatest ? I’ll give you a hint , Lucifer , Adam and Eve were all guilty of it . They all had free will and they all disobeyed God ( and don’t knock free will , if you didn’t have it you would be condemning God ) …In China , the Catholic Church is not free to practice it’s faith openly and w/out restraint . The state sanctioned Catholic Church is not likely to oppose the govt . India is also somewhat hostile to the Catholic Church as well .
Oh , I think I know what you want ! Tello me , where do you want the Vatican to send the Swiss Guard first , China or India ?

Sarcasm is hard to communicate online, especially with such poor grammar and so many spelling errors.

I suggest the use of spell-check and emoticons.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Angry ,
Why isn’t it appropriate, at least in the West , to blame Feminism , Secularism and Modernism ( and their corruptive influences , not all their influences are corrupt ) to some degree for our high rates of abortion ?
Why isn’t China’s govt. to blame for it’s war on second children ? How is this one child policy not directly responsible for many abortions , some of which will be gender based ?

Please actually read posts before responding to them.

I specifically said (in this thread) that China was a special case and that governmental policies were partially responsible for the situation there.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Angry ,
**Why isn’t it appropriate, at least in the West , to blame Feminism , Secularism and Modernism ( and their corruptive influences , not all their influences are corrupt ) to some degree for our high rates of abortion ? **
Why isn’t China’s govt. to blame for it’s war on second children ? How is this one child policy not directly responsible for many abortions , some of which will be gender based ?
China and India have something in common , both of their moral systems are not based on Judeo/Christian values . Show me a country that’s moral system is based on Judeo/Christian values that is engaging in what you call gendercide ? All moral systems are not equal .
Why don’t you ask the editor of Reason Magazine , Bill Maher,or any of the " New Atheists" to solve this problem ? Until recently you could have asked Antony Flew to solve this problem , but then he up and became a Deist . What can a man count on ?
Why don’t you enlist the Gender Feminists to engage this issue ? Up until now , these " ladies " have claimed that every woman has a right to abort her innocent child from conception until it’s head is half-way out the birth canal .In other words , abortion at any time for any reason . How can you hold that position and then tell Chinese and Indian women to stop having abortions for whatever reason they choose ? I can see it now , at the U.N. , Chinese and Indian women accuse western Feminists of Cultural Imperialism !

This is not about Western society.

Western society is not showing such eagerness to eliminate its female population. Despite the fact that Western cultures are the most *corrupted *by the influence of things like Feminism and Secularism.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

The Church is doing something and has been doing something for a very long time, Catholics have gave their lifes in both China and India to try and stop this kind of thing, what have you been doing to support the Church in her efforts to stop abortion?

What has the rest of the world been doing to stop what is happening?

I will tell you, they have actually been funding it through the UN and other organizations while at the same time trying to undermine the Churches moral authority. All who deny the Church’s moral authority play a part in preventing the Church from stopping this great tragedy that you are now lamenting.

msnbc.msn.com/id/28812519/ns/politics-white_house/
cwalac.org/cwblog/?p=290

Feminists, modernists secularists and atheists are overwhelmingly in favor of abortion, which is the cause of gendercide by the way.

No, if abortion were the main factor the same would be happening in the West.

The main factor behind this is the age-old cultural belief in places like China and India that girls are virtually worthless. Moreover infanticide (especially of girls) is already well established in many (or most, its hard to tell) such places. Ultrasounds and abortions have just made things easier for these kinds of people (that believe having a daughter is a burden/shame).

 

[Brendan_McCabe]

No, if abortion were the main factor the same would be happening in the West.

The main factor behind this is the age-old cultural belief in places like China and India that girls are virtually worthless. Moreover infanticide (especially of girls) is already well established in many (or most, its hard to tell) such places. Ultrasounds and abortions have just made things easier for these kinds of people (that believe having a daughter is a burden/shame).

So indiscriminate killing of babies is ok with you, you just don’t like targeted killing?

Baby girls are also been killed in their thousands in the West, are you ok with that?

If women have a right to abortion then who are you to question their reasons for having one?

Your position is not logical.

It cannot be both ok to kill a baby simply because the mother chooses to but then not ok to kill the baby for a specific reason, such as not wanting a baby girl.

Also these cultural beliefs are centuries old, how then is it only becoming a problem now? It is because as you said abortions have made it easier, much easier, in fact it is abortions that make it possible.

But it is not just the access to abortion itself that has caused this it is the marketing of abortion just as much. The marketing of abortion has convinced the world that it is ok to to kill babies, and so has made it much easier for people to do so without troubling their conscience.

The cultural beliefs did not cause this problem until abortion was available AND accepted as a good or at least morally neutral act…

Stop access to abortion and undo the new belief introduced to these cultures just recently that it is ok, in fact a good act to kill babies and limit the number of children you have and you will stop the gendercide.

The Catholic communities in these cultures do not practice gendercide, we know that our way works.

 

[st_lucy]

No, if abortion were the main factor the same would be happening in the West.

The main factor behind this is the age-old cultural belief in places like China and India that girls are virtually worthless. Moreover infanticide (especially of girls) is already well established in many (or most, its hard to tell) such places. Ultrasounds and abortions have just made things easier for these kinds of people (that believe having a daughter is a burden/shame).

I understand your anger towards these horrific events and I even applauded it, But your anger should not just stop at with the genocide of girls but should be extended towards the world wide extermination of children in the womb. The church is the only notable institution in the world right now who is speaking out against these horrific acts, but she does not just stop at the murder against her daughters but also of her sons. If more people felt as you do and spoke out in unison with the Church against these acts against all children people will stop and listen. Please don’t stop voicing your concerns on this matter let all know how horrific they are and the devastation that abortion is leaving behind. The whole world will not listen unless we keep crying out from the roof tops what is happening, in other words we need to be the voice for the voiceless. Keep up the good work on letting people know, just remember that Church is on your side is fighting very hard on this front…

 

[manualman]

I, for one, appreciate the question. The answer is in two parts:

1. First we, the church, must recognize that what is happening in China and India to unborn baby girls is no different than what is happening in the USA / Europe to all sorts of “unwanted” babies (but perhaps especially minority babies). We need to remember that what THEY are doing isn’t all that much worse than what our OWN culture is doing. To neglect this is to fall into self-righteousness that’s very much unwarranted.
2. We need to do more of what we’ve always done: Feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned, care for the dying, raise the orphans, etc. And when people notice and wonder how this can be, to TELL them about the hope that motivates us: the joy that we have that comes from knowing we can rise above our failures and be redeemed of our sins in Christ. Moral persuasion is the best weapon we have, and really always has been.

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

Why would whether or not Gay Marriage is legal effect the ratio of baby girls at birth and how many of them survive to adulthood?

Do you think that gay women will have more baby girls (and presumably boys) if they are not allowed to marry each other?

It wouldn’t ! I asked the question to determine the extent of your " selective " ( pun intended ) moral outrage .

No.

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

Why would whether or not Gay Marriage is legal effect the ratio of baby girls at birth and how many of them survive to adulthood?

Do you think that gay women will have more baby girls (and presumably boys) if they are not allowed to marry each other?

Why did you ignore 90% of this post and focus on my last question ?

Why do you think the 40-50 Million abortions in the US since Roe v Wade and the many more millions in the West in that time are either not " Warping" our society or are not worth being concerned about ?

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

Sarcasm is hard to communicate online, especially with such poor grammar and so many spelling errors.

I suggest the use of spell-check and emoticons.

angry,
I appreciate constructive criticism, so thank you . I also appreciate generaliztion , but generalization without specific , concrete examples is useless . So , could you please point out my spelling and grammar errors . I quickly reviewed my post and I did misspell
" tell " ( I added an “o” ). But really , why do you think you are "worth " spell -check ?
I think emoticons are " frivolous " and " effete " , ergo I refrain from using them .

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

Please actually read posts before responding to them.

I specifically said (in this thread) that China was a special case and that governmental policies were partially responsible for the situation there.

angry ,
I did read the post , you adorable knucklehead ! Yes , really , and I didn’t simply read it , I "actually " read it ! You criticism is witout substance , why don’t you actually respond to my posts instead of being so passive-agressive ?
I know what you said and I "broadened " the parameters of our discussion . I made an executive decision ! I made it about the WEST as well !
Were you pro-abortion before you became aware of gender -specific abortion ?

 

[ChristineML]

Pardon me if someone posted this already…

It’s my understanding that much of this countable preference for boys in China and India came about after the (imposed, in the case of China, and voluntary, in the case of India) insistence on smaller and smaller family sizes. When people were open to more children, folks knew that sooner or later they’d get a boy, so they didn’t have to take draconian measure towards their girls. It’s the relatively recent move towards one- or two-child families that makes people think, “I want a son, and I need one NOW, because I won’t have any more children after this.”

So a “generosity in the service of life” would naturally allow more girls to be born.

It’s yet another example of the Church, in her wisdom, knowing what’s good for us better than we do.

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

This is not about Western society.

Western society is not showing such eagerness to eliminate its female population. Despite the fact that Western cultures are the most *corrupted *by the influence of things like Feminism and Secularism.

angry ,
I chose to make it about Western as well as Eastern societies . Why your reluctance to engage this abortion problem in the West ?
You are clueless . You say the West is not showing an eagerness to eliminate it’s female population .That’s not true , the West IS showing an eagerness to eliminate BOTH it’s male and female populations ( and the "Deep Greens " are fine with this - the people who only want 1 billion people on earth ) . At least in China and India they are saying boys have value , in the West we are saying neither boys nor girls have value ! Which is worse ? And we in the West can’t excuse our depravity of abortion on demand ( from conception untl the head is half -way out the birth canal ) on poverty or government policies .
Again , why didn’t you rise to the challenge of our abortions warping our society ?

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

angryatheist8,
What are angry atheists , agnostics , sucularists , materialists , positvists, objectivists et al doing to stop this gendercide ?How much heavy lifting are those folks doing ?
How much heavy lifting have YOU done to stop abortion in the West ? And don’t weasel out and say this isn’t about you ! If you can ask the Catholic Church what it is doing , I can ask YOU what you are doing or have done .

 

[Wowbagger]

So you’re saying that that the Catholic Church can do nothing, aside from what its already doing?

Give me a stake and an Inquisition to put murderers on it and I’ll have this problem more or less solved inside of three weeks.

The trouble with being the moral and spiritual authority on Earth is that, well, being the moral and spiritual authority (I do love how you added the bold there!), does not actually necessarily come with armies or laws or judges or even a modest police force. The Catholic Church can’t make people not kill their babies, and we can’t make governments do their jobs, either.

We preach the Truth. We provide the sacraments, which are opportunities for grace. We pray for conversion and repentance, and we live in the certain hope that God will do all in His power to turn the hearts of men and women towards Him. We try to help those who suffer as a result of sin, and we even try to help those who suffer because of the sins they’ve committed – like gendercide by abortion.

But if you really, really want to kill your baby girls, despite our warnings about earthly misery and eternal fire and God’s love and hope and forgiveness and how great girls are and how your cultural hatred of girls is the work of the devil (although we’ll always put it more politely than that, I hope)… there’s nothing we the Church can do to stop you.

Unless, again, you’re willing to bring back the alliance between Church law and secular law, in which case I’ll go grab the stake I’ve been saving for the occasion!

 

[praxising]

Western society is not showing such eagerness to eliminate its female population.

Okay, first, conflating what happens in China with what’s happening in India is just obfuscating the real issues.

In India, as I understand it, they are not trying to "get rid’ of girls as much as have two male children. That’s because in India, it is the responsibility of the second-born son to house and care for his parents in their old age. The second son is their pension. Given the right to choose and birth control, a family that can only afford two or three children, will take no chances and be sure to have those two boys, or face dying in the street. We can protest all we want, but this has been the culture for thousands of years and no one is changing that overnight.

Now, if the belief of the culture is that a fetus is not a human being until born, which is still the law in this country, also, then they aren’t doing anything wrong in their minds. They might value girls very much, but will only have one after the two boys are born.

What’s going on in China is world’s different.

So let’s focus on India. Tell ya what won’t help: widespread atheism and “rational” thinking. They already don’t ascribe human status to a fetus.

All any person can do, and that’s what the Church is, a lot of persons, is live their faith, whatever that is, as well as they can. Jesus’ message is that all are willed to be with Him forever. That means all persons, from conception to death, are highly valued and to be treated as we wish ourselves to be treated. And after death, in fact, as we are called to pray for them.

What can the Church do? Spread the gospel and hope for conversions, because people that believe in their own value and the value of all life find peaceful and not violent solutions.

Here’s my question: what are you doing about it? You think the world gets better by posting your personal outrage on message boards? Convert, find a ministry, or found one, go to India, learn to love these people and respect them and maybe the Holy Spirit will guide you to be part of change.

Otherwise, I say move on with your self-righteousness. We stand for respect for all life and try to act on that. What do you stand for?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Why did you ignore 90% of this post and focus on my last question ?

Why do you think the 40-50 Million abortions in the US since Roe v Wade and the many more millions in the West in that time are either not " Warping" our society or are not worth being concerned about ?

Why are you ignoring the main topic of the thread?

Which are the questions:
What can the Church do about this problem?
What should the Church do about this issue?
And
How will this effect the Church?