What can science tell us about truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love?

[TEPO]

Modern medicine treats the whole person not only the symptoms. Disease often has its origin in a negative attitude to life whereas Catholicism is based on belief in God’s infinite love demonstrated in the life, death and teaching of Jesus. Depression is widespread in secular societies like Sweden which has one of the highest standards of living and one of the highest rates of suicide in the world.

Though too, a balanced diet with regular exercise in combination with a solid Catholic faith seems to me to be the ticket. Good health promotes positive energy, and with positive energy, one finds the will become more social, confident and charitable towards others.

…but some Catholics view this as vanity because the Church has no doctrine on physical health. Likewise, science is sometimes viewed by Catholics as pseudo, because the Church has no doctrine on it. There are other things that the Church has no doctrine on -and because the Church has no doctrine on it some Catholics view it as non-essential to life. But the Church doesn’t claim to have all the answers. She only claims that what little she does know is the God given truth.

 

[Bahman]

What does science tell us about the origin of consciousness?

No much yet, most people don’t like this approach or believe that is not the right way without proposing other option. Nevertheless, science apparently is the only way to understand consciousness granted by God.

 

[TEPO]

No much yet, most people don’t like this approach or believe that is not the right way without proposing other option. Nevertheless, science apparently is the only way to understand consciousness granted by God.

Here also, this is misleading. Science meaning 'the scientific method" is merely a method of understanding things based on measurements. But measurements are like odds or statistics, and not all things are predictable or measurable because not all factors are known. Nor will they ever be to us. Therefore science can never be the “only” way…

 

[Bahman]

Here also, this is misleading. Science meaning 'the scientific method" is merely a method of understanding things based on measurements. But measurements are like odds or statistics, and not all things are predictable or measurable because not all factors are known. Nor will they ever be to us. Therefore science can never be the “only” way…

I invite you to listen to this talk which explains (in the middle of talk) that consciousness is subject of science as well.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Argumenta ad hominem…

LOL… no.

I do not think that you know what that phrase means. That was not argumentum ad hominem. For that to have been argumentum ad hominem, you would have had to have made an argument to be attacked. You haven’t. Ergo, it’s not argumentum ad hominem.

Nacho45:

I can only guess,

That’s right, you can only guess. You can only guess because OP is a troll. I suggest that we stop taking his bait.

 

[inocente]

Disease often has its origin in a negative attitude to life

Malaria has its origin in a negative attitude?

Science can tell you the truth about social determinants of health: euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/98438/e81384.pdf

Depression is widespread in secular societies like Sweden which has one of the highest standards of living and one of the highest rates of suicide in the world.

Sounds like you’re out of date. The US and UK have higher suicide rates.

In fact 43 countries have higher suicide rates, including France (which is 76% Catholic), Poland (87% Catholic), Ireland (83%) and Hungary (60%) as against Sweden (<2% Catholic).

It would not be scientific to read anything into those ratios - just a lesson on how statistics can bite back.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_by_country

 

[aragonjohn1]

???

nothing except that science is not the source of these good things and that there is truth outside of science and non-science. also proves that because science does not and most likely never will have proof for these but, proves there is Someone besides pride and science is the cause of these gift of and from love: God.

Gode bless

 

[DrTaffy]

What are your first principles?

Logic, maths, that sort of thing. Is this actually relevant to the topic of this thread?

For that matter, what is the point of this thread? It looks a lot like a purely gratuitous sneer at Science, which would probably do less to annoy scientists than it would to humiliate those of your fellow Catholics who object to Catholics being seen as anti-science.

Science is restricted to material reality…] It is incapable of answering questions about the value and purpose of life.

But science has, for example, done what religion promised (and generally fails) to do - make the blind to see, the lame to walk, and so on. In other words, it does a lot, and makes a huge difference to everyone’s lives. Objectively, demonstrably.

So again, what is the point of sneering at it like this?

 

[tonyrey]

Logic, maths, that sort of thing. Is this actually relevant to the topic of this thread?

For that matter, what is the point of this thread? It looks a lot like a purely gratuitous sneer at Science, which would probably do less to annoy scientists than it would to humiliate those of your fellow Catholics who object to Catholics being seen as anti-science.

But science has, for example, done what religion promised (and generally fails) to do - make the blind to see, the lame to walk, and so on. In other words, it does a lot, and makes a huge difference to everyone’s lives. Objectively, demonstrably.

So again, what is the point of sneering at it like this?

The sneer is in your imagination:

God is truth. God is beauty. God is love.

According to Romans 1:19, science can tell us about God.

Thus, science can tell us about truth, beauty, and love

.*
(My response) Indeed:

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

St Paul was inspired by Jesus:

                                                  26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor  gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not  of more  value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add  one cubit to his span of life? 28 And why are you anxious about  clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither  toil nor spin; 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not  arrayed like one of these.

Science has revealed the exquisite complexity of nature and of the genetic code in particular.

I’m pleased you used “generally” instead of “always” with reference to religion. A spate of miracles would wreak havoc on scientific predictions, wouldn’t it?

 

[tonyrey]

nothing except that science is not the source of these good things and that there is truth outside of science and non-science. also proves that because science does not and most likely never will have proof for these but, proves there is Someone besides pride and science is the cause of these gift of and from love: God.

God bless

In other words science cannot explain itself or the scientist or the origin of the scientist or the origin of the universe…

 

[tonyrey]

Malaria has its origin in a negative attitude?

Science can tell you the truth about social determinants of health: euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/98438/e81384.pdf

Sounds like you’re out of date. The US and UK have higher suicide rates.

In fact 43 countries have higher suicide rates, including France (which is 76% Catholic), Poland (87% Catholic), Ireland (83%) and Hungary (60%) as against Sweden (<2% Catholic).

It would not be scientific to read anything into those ratios - just a lesson on how statistics can bite back.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_by_country

You’ve bitten off far more than you can chew!

1. Disease often has its origin in a negative attitude to life.
2. Modern medicine treats the whole person.
3. Sweden is one of the top ten nations with the highest suicide rates and the top ten highest development indices.
   who.int/topics/en/
4. Is belief in God’s infinite love less significant and less powerful than social determinants?

 

[tonyrey]

LOL… no.

I do not think that you know what that phrase means. That was not argumentum ad hominem. For that to have been argumentum ad hominem, you would have had to have made an argument to be attacked. You haven’t. Ergo, it’s not argumentum ad hominem.
Not an attack? :

“I do not think that you know what that phrase means. That was not argumentum ad hominem. For that to have been argumentum ad hominem, you would have had to have made an argument to be attacked. You haven’t. Ergo, it’s not argumentum ad hominem.”

Not an attack?

You can only guess because** OP is a troll**. I suggest that we stop taking his bait.

Not an attack?

 

[tonyrey]

No much yet, most people don’t like this approach or believe that is not the right way without proposing other option. Nevertheless, science apparently is the only way to understand consciousness granted by God.

“apparently” gives the game away! Appearances are often very deceptive!

Can science explain itself or the scientist or the origin of the scientist or the origin of the universe?

 

[StevenFrancis]

???

The sciences of philosophy and theology can tell us plenty. But are your referring to the traditional physical sciences? If so, then I guess the answer would be almost zip. The physical sciences are about measurement; use of material and resources, and whatnot. They don’t really, or shouldn’t really dip into the area of the soul, and man’s relationship to the creator.

 

[tonyrey]

The sciences of philosophy and theology can tell us plenty. But are your referring to the traditional physical sciences? If so, then I guess the answer would be almost zip. The physical sciences are about measurement; use of material and resources, and whatnot. They don’t really, or shouldn’t really dip into the area of the soul, and man’s relationship to the creator.

I agree - although philosophy and theology are not usually regarded as sciences.

 

[inocente]

You’ve bitten off far more than you can chew!

1. Disease often has its origin in a negative attitude to life.
2. Modern medicine treats the whole person.
3. Sweden is one of the top ten nations with the highest suicide rates and the top ten highest development indices.
   who.int/topics/en/
4. Is belief in God’s infinite love less significant and less powerful than social determinants?

No, Sweden isn’t! You are using old data. Stop it! As I cited, lots of majority Christian countries have higher suicide rates. Also, if you look around, lots of majority Christian countries have higher crime rates. The notion that secular societies are worse societies is false, false and false.

And no, just repeating your opinion about disease doesn’t make it true, where is your evidence?

What can science tell us about truth? That it is a far more reliable indicator of truth than folk myths, fairy tales, personal opinions and old statistics.

 

[tonyrey]

No, Sweden isn’t! You are using old data.

The data is dated 2010. The onus is on you to produce more recent statistics which demonstrate a swift change in social mores.

Stop it!

Unnecessary and discourteous remark.

As I cited, lots of majority Christian countries have higher suicide rates. Also, if you look around, lots of majority Christian countries have higher crime rates. The notion that secular societies are worse societies is false, false and false.

Non sequitur. You are confusing crime with depression!

Depression is widespread in secular societies like Sweden which has one of the highest standards of living and one of the highest rates of suicide in the world.

And no, just repeating your opinion about disease doesn’t make it true, where is your evidence?

People become depressed and commit suicide when they believe there is no point in living, no solution to their problems, no one loves them, no reason why they were born…

What can science tell us about truth? That it is a far more reliable indicator of truth than folk myths, fairy tales, personal opinions and old statistics.

Christians and members of other religions believe in a far more reliable source of knowledge than science with regard to truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love…

 

[inocente]

The data is dated 2010. The onus is on you to produce more recent statistics which demonstrate a swift change in social mores.

In the WHO link you gave, the Sweden figures are for 2010, but France is 2007 and USA 2005. The latest figures are in the Wikipedia table I linked.

Unnecessary and discourteous remark.

Stop it!

Non sequitur. You are confusing crime with depression!

What, let’s conveniently ignore homicide rates? Total suicides + homicides per 100,000 people: USA 17.2, France 15.8, Sweden 12.1.

*People become *depressed and commit suicide when they believe there is no point in living, no solution to their problems, no one loves them, no reason why they were born…

Sure, but for the truth we need to be more scientific. Deaths by suicide are swamped by other causes: for every suicide there are 85 deaths from other causes each year in Sweden (65 in the US).

Christians and members of other religions believe in a far more reliable source of knowledge than science with regard to truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love…

You’ll need to explain why Christians and members of other religions become scientists if they already have a far more reliable source of knowledge.

And if it’s a far more reliable source of knowledge why does it differ from one religion to another?

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

“I do not think that you know what that phrase means. That was not argumentum ad hominem. For that to have been argumentum ad hominem, you would have had to have made an argument to be attacked. You haven’t. Ergo, it’s not argumentum ad hominem.”

Not an attack?

Not an attack?

Let’s try this again.

I do not think you know what the phrase argumentum ad hominem means. For that to have been argumentum ad hominem, you would have had to have made an argument to be attacked.

 

[DrTaffy]

The sneer is in your imagination:

I did say only that it looks like a sneer. But you didn’t answer my question, what is the point of this thread, given that it panders to the stereotype of Catholicism as being anti-science?

I’m pleased you used “generally” instead of “always” with reference to religion.

It’s called intellectual honesty. I may doubt that Monica Besra was cured of cancer by a miracle from Mother Theresa as the Church claims, rather than the medical treatment she was receiving, but I cannot prove it.

A spate of miracles would wreak havoc on scientific predictions, wouldn’t it?

Not really, it would excite and invigorate the scientific world like nothing else. You don’t really understand the scientific mind, I suspect.