What can we do?

[STEVERJ]

I am a 50 year old man whose girlfriend disagrees with him on what is fornication and/or what is acceptable behavior amoung two unmarried people. I am of the opinion that intercourse in the dividing line between sin and no sin. She believes that any touching below the neck is a sin. Please help-i just find it hard to believe that hand holding and kissing is the only acceptable contact between two people working towards marriage prior to marraige in God’s eyes

 

[Eucharisted]

You want to be pure before marriage. The purer you are, the happier you’ll be married. Besides, you don’t want to invest any sexuality into the relationship before marriage, because marriage might not happen.

 

[Corki]

I am a 50 year old man whose girlfriend disagrees with him on what is fornication and/or what is acceptable behavior amoung two unmarried people. I am of the opinion that intercourse in the dividing line between sin and no sin. She believes that any touching below the neck is a sin. Please help-i just find it hard to believe that hand holding and kissing is the only acceptable contact between two people working towards marriage prior to marraige in God’s eyes

What is fornication? - sexual activity outside of marriage. It’s not just intercourse.

So, if by “touching below the neck” you mean actions that would usually be foreplay to intercourse, then that would not be proper.

**Handholding and kissing the only acceptable contact between two people? **- no, hugging and cuddling are usually fine too as long as they don’t become occasions of sin.

Ok, at 50 (me too) we aren’t teenagers anymore so the idea of rules for body parts is a bit juvenile. The best way to approach it from a Catholic moral standpoint is 1) if it is something that would, in a holy marriage, logically lead to sex, it is probably wrong now but great when you are married. 2) if the activity creates lustful thoughts and feelings, it is probably wrong. When you are waiting for marriage, it is natural to feel longing and desire, but not lust focused on the moment. 3) If your girlfriend is uncomfortable with it - it’s wrong, period. Pressuring for sexual favors beyond what your partner is comfortable with is wrong, even after you are married. 4) situations that are “near occasions of sin” are to be avoided.

 

[1ke]

I am a 50 year old man whose girlfriend disagrees with him on what is fornication and/or what is acceptable behavior amoung two unmarried people. I am of the opinion that intercourse in the dividing line between sin and no sin. She believes that any touching below the neck is a sin. Please help-i just find it hard to believe that hand holding and kissing is the only acceptable contact between two people working towards marriage prior to marraige in God’s eyes

Your girlfriend is correct. Deliberately stimulating the genital organs or arousing your partner is not appropriate for an unmarried couple.

I suggest you get some study materials on Catholic moral teaching, chastity, etc. www.pureloveclub.com is geared to teens, but contains lots of good information. Christopher West’s Theology of the Body for Beginners and The Good News About Sex and Marriage are others you should look into.

 

[STEVERJ]

Thanks for the feedback and insight from all who have responded so far. I am going to sound judgemental, but i find it dificult to beleive that any of you have dated and found someone you trully love. I find it dificult to believe that all of you were/are virgins. I seems unfair for you to be against something which you probably to part in.

But as i said thanks for the response–i will keep on praying and i have never forced my love to do anything. I deal with her guilt after she thinks we have done something wrong–and 99% of the time, what she regrets is what she started

 

[1ke]

Thanks for the feedback and insight from all who have responded so far. I am going to sound judgemental, but i find it dificult to beleive that any of you have dated and found someone you trully love. I find it dificult to believe that all of you were/are virgins. I seems unfair for you to be against something which you probably to part in.

The “everyone else is doing it” defense isn’t a very sound approach to striving for holiness. As your mother would say, “if everyone else jumped off a cliff would you do it too?”

What other people have done, are doing, or will do in the future should not influence what *you *do.

We are all called to be Saints, to strive for holiness, and live God’s commandments. Those who fall into sexual sin have the opportunity to go to Confession and to make a firm ammendment of purpose to sin no more. You have the opportunity to do so as well.

We are all called to form our conscience by study, prayer, and participation in the Sacraments. We are all called to holiness.

But as i said thanks for the response–i will keep on praying and i have never forced my love to do anything. I deal with her guilt after she thinks we have done something wrong–and 99% of the time, what she regrets is what she started

The Sacrament of Marriage is a Sacrament of service-- the spouses to each other and to their children. They serve each other through holiness. It is our job to assist our spouse and children in attaining heaven-- in forming ourselves, and them, into Saints.

So, you can start doing this now with your girlfriend. It’s an opportunity to remind her of your mutual committment to chastity and be the leader in the relationship.

 

[Godfollower]

Thanks for the feedback and insight from all who have responded so far. I am going to sound judgemental, but i find it dificult to beleive that any of you have dated and found someone you trully love. I find it dificult to believe that all of you were/are virgins. I seems unfair for you to be against something which you probably to part in.

But as i said thanks for the response–i will keep on praying and i have never forced my love to do anything. I deal with her guilt after she thinks we have done something wrong–and 99% of the time, what she regrets is what she started

We aren’t telling you what we have or haven’t done; we’re telling you what we understand to be the teaching of the Church. The fact that some of us have sinned against that teaching doesn’t change what that teaching says; that’s just a reflection of the fact that we’re all sinners and fall short of the glory of God. We’re just happy He chose in His grace to save us.

Should you be interested, a good text on the Church’s teaching about sex, one that is in full keeping with the Magisterium’s teaching, is William May et al., Catholic Sexual Ethics, 2nd edition. Or you could try the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which teaches us that

“The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”

CCC 2352 (citing Persona Humana, “Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics” by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith).

Although I am not 50, I have to second Corki’s comment, that

Ok, at 50 (me too) we aren’t teenagers anymore so the idea of rules for body parts is a bit juvenile. The best way to approach it from a Catholic moral standpoint is 1) if it is something that would, in a holy marriage, logically lead to sex, it is probably wrong now but great when you are married. 2) if the activity creates lustful thoughts and feelings, it is probably wrong. When you are waiting for marriage, it is natural to feel longing and desire, but not lust focused on the moment. 3) If your girlfriend is uncomfortable with it - it’s wrong, period. Pressuring for sexual favors beyond what your partner is comfortable with is wrong, even after you are married. 4) situations that are “near occasions of sin” are to be avoided.

That’s a very good presentation of the Catholic Church’s teaching.

 

[GraceDK]

Thanks for the feedback and insight from all who have responded so far. I am going to sound judgemental, but i find it dificult to beleive that any of you have dated and found someone you trully love. I find it dificult to believe that all of you were/are virgins. I seems unfair for you to be against something which you probably to part in.

But as i said thanks for the response–i will keep on praying and i have never forced my love to do anything. I deal with her guilt after she thinks we have done something wrong–and 99% of the time, what she regrets is what she started

OHHHHHHH!!! Don’t let her go through that shi-t!
look, I was in a relationship with a guy that didn’t understand the chastity thing either. But that was understandable because he was not a man of faith at all. What was wrong was however the subtle ways of trying to pursuade me to go further with him than my conscience could bear… When we then did something stupid I would be the most lonely and sad person in the world because he would somehow ridicule me, and not understand me. It hurt me so much that he even didnt listen when I said: “Hey I know you dont really follow me here nor understand what I feel, but I am telling you this behaviour will hurt me so please dont tempt me”… he just kept on saying: “please… just this time”… and try to rationalise to me and say that I was just a poor guilt-ridden Christian girl.
He didn’t know any better. You ought to!

I am telling you! are you planning to overhear the voice of the Holy Spirit in the temple/body of the woman you claim to love??? Why are you doing this?

Do you love your own lust more than you love her? The fact that she feels bad afterwards should be enough reason for you to BACK OFF! If you don’t she will resent you always and wonder inside: “Is this man worthy of respect. Is he a spiritual leader like Jesus… should he run my house when he is this selfish as he has proven to be… is he a true man or a rainworm?”

Wake up and smell the coffee… It takes TWO to be in a chaste relationship. Your “love” is not made of stone, man … what do you think! if you are both not comitted to chastity it will not work. The sexual drive is so strong…

But if you don’t respect her I sincerely hope she will find someone who does.
I speak from experience… I know how a woman suffers in a way a man doesn’t know anything about when he has used her and calls it love. Its not love… its plain lust. get it???

 

[STEVERJ]

You have all got to be kidding, especially you gracedk. What a bunch of hypocrites, i thought this was a catholic forum. Seems to be a whole lot of judging going on by a group of so-called christians.

Why do you always assume that it is the man. I am not pushing sexual relations in any way, shape, or form. And please, there is probably not a virgin marriage amoung you. You all had your fun and now that some of you are married, you are forgiven. Look yourselves in the mirror before you judge me. You are a bunch of tired a#$^s. I am sorry i came to this site, a catholic man-looking for catholic answers, not a bunch of do-gooders

 

[GraceDK]

You have all got to be kidding, especially you gracedk. What a bunch of hypocrites, i thought this was a catholic forum. Seems to be a whole lot of judging going on by a group of so-called christians.

Why do you always assume that it is the man. I am not pushing sexual relations in any way, shape, or form. And please, there is probably not a virgin marriage amoung you. You all had your fun and now that some of you are married, you are forgiven. Look yourselves in the mirror before you judge me. You are a bunch of tired a#$^s. I am sorry i came to this site, a catholic man-looking for catholic answers, not a bunch of do-gooders

Actually Steve,
I have no business lying to you or anyone here. I am not a virgin and I am sorry for it. But yes, manipulation and seduction exists. The sex drive is a strong force in us and we need each other to stay chaste until the wedding night… okay? And actually, when I was 17 I sounded like you: “everyone else is doing it, its no big deal, so why not me?”… and that made me miserable as soon as I had overstepped my limits and overheard the voice of the Holy Spirit. Still 7 years later I wanted to KILL the man that had pressured me… yes, resentment exists too… and even if you say “she is willing” woe to the man that tempts someone who loves Jesus. She will fell resentment towards you a long time if you dont stop now.
I think that your arrogance here is enough to make me really sad for your future bride. Maybe you ought to show her this thread and ask her whom she agrees with and then respectfully hear her point. Okay? We all talk about reality, our own reality as we experience it. You seem to only accept your own view and not recognize that you are hurting the one you claim to love.
This is not about us or whether we have sinned or not - and believe me, there are many people on this forum that have not comitted the sins you seem to take so lightly - but about you hurting the one you claim to love, because you dont respect the law of God that he placed in the heart of your fiancee as well as in Scripture and the catechism. So why dont you get taught and start asking Him why it is, that this dear woman of yours have sadness in her eyes? Thats YOUR problem Steve… Do you love her?
You can yell all you want… I dont really care about your sexual frustration. What I care about is her. I have comitted grave sins and I am not happy to tell my future spouse about it… nor the children I might one day have. All I know is that if I ever date such a man again, who doesnt respect my purity and his, I hope I have the courage and grace to walk away.

Look at Jesus… You know you are wrong.

Peace and wisdom be with you.
Grace.

 

[Corki]

What a bunch of hypocrites, i thought this was a catholic forum. Seems to be a whole lot of judging going on by a group of so-called christians.

Why do you always assume that it is the man. I am not pushing sexual relations in any way, shape, or form. And please, there is probably not a virgin marriage amoung you. You all had your fun and now that some of you are married, you are forgiven. Look yourselves in the mirror before you judge me. You are a bunch of tired a#$^s. I am sorry i came to this site, a catholic man-looking for catholic answers, not a bunch of do-gooders

I don’t see anyone judging here. And none of us said we weren’t without sin. We are all sinners. If you look around the forums, you will see lots of posts about people, married and unmarried struggling with chastity. And you will also see lots of posts about sorrow when somone has failed. Everyone knows it’s not easy.

As you said, you came here looking for Catholic answers and were provided with Catholic answers according to Catholic teaching on sexuality and morality. This is the Moral Theology forum, after all.

Nobody “assumed” it was the man. Your first post said you, the man, thought anything short of intercourse was not sinful while your girlfriend, not the man, disagreed. That’s what people responded to.

And as for “do-gooders,” most Christians, especially Catholics, would consider that a compliment. I’m not sure why it would be a bad thing.

 

[1ke]

You have all got to be kidding, especially you gracedk. What a bunch of hypocrites, i thought this was a catholic forum. Seems to be a whole lot of judging going on by a group of so-called christians.

To me it seems you are the one being judgmental. You have made accusations and called people “hypocrites.”

Why do you always assume that it is the man. I am not pushing sexual relations in any way, shape, or form.

I can only speak for myself. I did not assume that you, the man, were pushing for a sexual relationship. You stated she initiates and then backs off. I pointed out that it was an opportunity for you to be the spiritual leader of the relationship and reaffirm a commitment to chastity and Christ when she does initiate something.

And please, there is probably not a virgin marriage amoung you.

You are very mistaken in this regard.

You all had your fun and now that some of you are married, you are forgiven.

There are certainly many who have committed sexual sins, gone to Confession, and been forgiven.

Again, the “everyone else is doing it” mentality is not fruitful. Christ is clear in his teaching.

Look yourselves in the mirror before you judge me.

No one here is judging you. YOU ASKED our opinion in your dispute with your girlfriend on appropriate behavior before marriage. We answered. You did not like the answer and so you have now decided that everyone is a hypocrite and judgmental.

Christ’s teaching is clear. That was enumerated for you. There were books and websites suggested that could help you strive for chastity and holiness. You can take the advice or leave it. But, getting angry over it is an odd reaction.

You are a bunch of tired a#$^s.

Are you 12 years old or 50? Temper tantrums and insults are the realm of adolescents, not grown men.

I am sorry i came to this site, a catholic man-looking for catholic answers, not a bunch of do-gooders

You got Catholic answers. You just didn’t like them. So, if you want to take your toys and leave the sandbox that is your perogative. It does not change the Church’s teaching. It does not change my answer to you.

I hope you will strive to live in holiness and chastity. It’s what we are all called to do.

So, what exactly do you want here Steve? Do you want people to agree with you that genital foreplay is acceptable?

 

[STEVERJ]

Well thanks for the response grace. I have a whole bunch to say in response to your note, but i will let it go. I still think you should look in the mirror, and take respondsibility for your own actions… From your reply it sounds like you were raped, that it was all the mans fault, i am sorry.

I will continue to pray that Gods face shines upon you all

Steve

 

[GraceDK]

Well thanks for the response grace. I have a whole bunch to say in response to your note, but i will let it go. I still think you should look in the mirror, and take respondsibility for your own actions… From your reply it sounds like you were raped, that it was all the mans fault, i am sorry.

I will continue to pray that Gods face shines upon you all

Steve

Actually I look in the mirror every day and I finally have peace, because I went through a process that you refuse to enter. You see, I admitted my sins to myself (and yes they were many) and felt deeply ashamed and confessed my sins to the priest after I had cried my eyes out at the heart of Jesus for months.

We have all sinned and lost the glory of God… But the reason why I fear for your coming bride and why I speak harshly to you is because you are not even willing to admit that you are missing the mark soo much by your actions.

And yes, I felt almost like I had been raped while I hadnt. I just had been manipulated and pressured by my boyfriend… and for that I needed many years healing. Believe me you dont want your coming wife to feel resentment to you like I have felt towards that man.

But whats the point… you are too proud to listen…
Do you even wonder why we care to write these posts to you?

 

[DJgang]

Here really is the bottom line…

She doesn’t want to do anything from the neck down.

You should respect her wishes.

Sounds like Catholic teachings is no where associated with this at all … she’s put a halt to it and either you abide or let her go.

Marry her. That will make the decision easy.