What caused God to create the universe?

[gentle_atheist]

God always existed. The universe did not. So what caused God to create the universe 13.7 billion years ago?

In other words, does God really solve the problem of the first cause?

To say that God always existed simply means that the potential to create the universe always existed. But what caused the potential to create the universe – which always existed – to become the actual creation of the universe? And what was the cause of that cause, etc.?

 

[JDaniel]

God always existed. The universe did not. So what caused God to create the universe 13.7 billion years ago?

In other words, does God really solve the problem of the first cause?

To say that God always existed simply means that the potential to create the universe always existed. But what caused the potential to create the universe – which always existed – to become the actual creation of the universe? And what was the cause of that cause, etc.?

GA:

A un-required, un-caused outpouring of Love. Now, you can misconstrue intentions to be “causes,” but intentions are causal only in an extremely wide sense of that word, colored by intention.

God bless,
jd

 

[jochoa]

God always existed. The universe did not. So what caused God to create the universe 13.7 billion years ago?

In other words, does God really solve the problem of the first cause?

To say that God always existed simply means that the potential to create the universe always existed. But what caused the potential to create the universe – which always existed – to become the actual creation of the universe? And what was the cause of that cause, etc.?

Excellent question my friend!

What caused God to create the universe? He wanted to experience, as well as, share the experience of a limitless happiness with unbreakable peace.

Thoughts?

 

[triumphguy]

What caused God to create the universe?

Love.

 

[piejesu]

Love

Yes, it is love. Love that is infinitely more than we can ever hope to comprehend in this lifetime.

 

[johnnyjones]

God always existed. The universe did not. So what caused God to create the universe 13.7 billion years ago?

In other words, does God really solve the problem of the first cause?

To say that God always existed simply means that the potential to create the universe always existed. But what caused the potential to create the universe – which always existed – to become the actual creation of the universe? And what was the cause of that cause, etc.?

If your an Atheist how can you not believe the universe didn’t always exist? If the universe had an origin, what made it. You may believe in infinite matter and not even know it. That is very close to a God concept. Always was.

 

[empther]

Nice try, A-team, but it won’t work.

God was perfectly happy by himself, but he decided to share his happiness with us.
There was no “causing” of God’s causing us. It was entirely his choice.

 

[prodigalson2011]

God always existed. The universe did not. So what caused God to create the universe 13.7 billion years ago?

In other words, does God really solve the problem of the first cause?

To say that God always existed simply means that the potential to create the universe always existed. But what caused the potential to create the universe – which always existed – to become the actual creation of the universe? And what was the cause of that cause, etc.?

1. 
   
   The problem with this question, in my opinion, is the use of the word “always,” which is a qualifier of time. One can only say God has existed “always” in relation to the universe. It is improper to say he existed before the universe. Rather, he exists independently of the universe. Time itself is a property of the universe, not existing outside of it. So, to God, the universe is eternal in that it is present to him in its entirety, past, present and future. You might even say the universe is like a movie on God’s shelf in which the actors chose all of their own lines. The universe would be the reel of tape in the cassette. While it exists as a whole, the characters can only ever be present to themselves in a single frame.
   
   But anyway, the concept of time is one that depends upon contingent beings confined to temporal existence. That is, we lack (in this life) the faculty of eternal perception. You might say, though this should not be taken literally, time is an illusion. It’s not, really, but it is an experiential mechanism given by God to allow us to make choices, culminating ultimately in the decision to love Him.

 

[Mijoy2]

This might just be my prejudice but I think He wanted to go fishing. Creating the universe was a long range plan to accomplish this goal. From big bang to water to ameoba to fish. It was kind-of reverse engineeered.

Oh yeah, and then there is the human thing too. Probably an after thought .

 

[triumphguy]

Well Christ called the Apostles to be “fishers of men” so you may be on to something:thumbsup:

 

[LJH_80]

God always existed. The universe did not. So what caused God to create the universe 13.7 billion years ago?

In other words, does God really solve the problem of the first cause?

To say that God always existed simply means that the potential to create the universe always existed. But what caused the potential to create the universe – which always existed – to become the actual creation of the universe? And what was the cause of that cause, etc.?

The universe has “always” existed because when it didn’t, time had no meaning. It’s not like “the universe is 14 billion years old, but 15 billion years ago, there was no universe.”
Instead it’s “the universe is 14 billion years old, and there is no before then.” There is nothing “before” the universe because time is a part of the universe.

This is not an argument for or against creation, it’s simply science.

Therefore, if God exists, He exists outside of time. As such, He did not “kick start” the universe by launching the big bang and then just hanging back to watch the show. He created the entire thing, from beginning to end, at once, seeing every part of it.
Humans have a hard time thinking outside of time, so any example I give will be necessarily imperfect, but think about it like a printing press. When the press hits, it doesn’t print one letter after the other, it prints the entire page at once. The reader (i.e. humanity), however, reads it sequentially, so it seems that some words come before others.

If you prefer an atheistic interpretation (which, from your name I’ll assume you do), it’s still the same thing. The universe came into being with four dimensions. The universe is not bound by any specific perception of time any more than it’s bound by a particular frame of reference for space. Asking “what came before time=0” is like asking “what is to the left of the leftmost point on the universe?”
But asking what happened before the big bang is like asking what happened on page -1 of a book; there are no negative pages.

 

[LJH_80]

This might just be my prejudice but I think He wanted to go fishing. Creating the universe was a long range plan to accomplish this goal. From big bang to water to ameoba to fish. It was kind-of reverse engineeered.

Oh yeah, and then there is the human thing too. Probably an after thought .

Humans were the trial run… Dolphins are when he actually got it right.
Douglas Adams:

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

 

[Robertanthony]

The universe has “always” existed because when it didn’t, time had no meaning. It’s not like “the universe is 14 billion years old, but 15 billion years ago, there was no universe.”
Instead it’s “the universe is 14 billion years old, and there is no before then.” There is nothing “before” the universe because time is a part of the universe.

This is not an argument for or against creation, it’s simply science.

Therefore, if God exists, He exists outside of time. As such, He did not “kick start” the universe by launching the big bang and then just hanging back to watch the show. He created the entire thing, from beginning to end, at once, seeing every part of it.
Humans have a hard time thinking outside of time, so any example I give will be necessarily imperfect, but think about it like a printing press. When the press hits, it doesn’t print one letter after the other, it prints the entire page at once. The reader (i.e. humanity), however, reads it sequentially, so it seems that some words come before others.

If you prefer an atheistic interpretation (which, from your name I’ll assume you do), it’s still the same thing. The universe came into being with four dimensions. The universe is not bound by any specific perception of time any more than it’s bound by a particular frame of reference for space. Asking “what came before time=0” is like asking “what is to the left of the leftmost point on the universe?”
But asking what happened before the big bang is like asking what happened on page -1 of a book; there are no negative pages.

First of all, have you applied for Mensa yet?

Second of all, you don’t mention your beliefs, but I would gather you’re atheist/agnostic, and as an educated one, how would you qualify whatever that was prior to the universe/time starting to exist, would you say absolute nothingness, not even particles, atoms, niet? What set “nothing” in motion to make the universe? (just curious, not trying to win you over)

As for the question, I’d say (half-jokingly)1st because he had no one/nothing to rule over and 2nd that three’s a crowd! (God has a sense of humor. right?)

 

[LJH_80]

First of all, have you applied for Mensa yet?

I was accepted at 13, but never followed up on it. Thank you for the compliment.

Second of all, you don’t mention your beliefs, but I would gather you’re atheist/agnostic,

Actually, no.
I was one since I was very young (I am actually writing a book titled “The Five Year Old Atheist” about how that happened, what changed my mind, and how I have developed my theology since). At about 25, I had an experience that changed my view, and I could not intellectually claim to be an atheist anymore (I still acknowledge the possibility that there isn’t a god, but then I also acknowledge the possibility that I am a human battery living in a simulation created by machines who fear Keanu Reeves).
Since then, I have developed a spirituality based on logical deduction and critical examination of the world we inhabit. Oddly enough, it comes remarkably close to Christianity, which is why I’m here.

With that said, my main enemy is not atheism or theism, but faulty arguments.

…how would you qualify whatever that was prior to the universe/time starting to exist, would you say absolute nothingness, not even particles, atoms, niet? What set “nothing” in motion to make the universe? (just curious, not trying to win you over)

That’s just it. The entire concept of “before” ceases to exist. Again, it really hurts the brain to try and think about, but going back to the page metaphor, what is the word before the first word on the page? I’m going to assume you were born sometime in the last 1,000 years (a safe assumtion, I think). That means you started reading this really long page of the universe nowhere near the beginning. And from our vantage point here, it looks like it goes on infinitely in all directions, but that’s an illusion just like being in the middle of the ocean and the water looking like it goes on forever.
But if we did get back to the first word of the page, and find that word, then someone will ask what is the word before the first word? There isn’t one. The entire concept doesn’t exist, and the sequential aspect of the story we’re reading breaks down.

What was Hamlet’s childhood like? he doesn’t have one because it wasn’t written.

As for the question, I’d say (half-jokingly)1st because he had no one/nothing to rule over and 2nd that three’s a crowd! (God has a sense of humor. right?)

I hope so, because if not, I’m in real trouble.

 

[JDaniel]

The universe has “always” existed because when it didn’t, time had no meaning. It’s not like “the universe is 14 billion years old, but 15 billion years ago, there was no universe.”
Instead it’s “the universe is 14 billion years old, and there is no before then.” There is nothing “before” the universe because time is a part of the universe.

This is not an argument for or against creation, it’s simply science.

LJH:

Welcome to CAF.

Aren’t we presuming much when we presume that the universe is the first of God’s creations? Since our science can’t look beyond the first Planck length at the beginning of our universe, we can only presume. (And, of course, that is also a presumption.)

Therefore, if God exists, He exists outside of time. As such, He did not “kick start” the universe by launching the big bang and then just hanging back to watch the show. He created the entire thing, from beginning to end, at once, seeing every part of it.

More than likely. But, this, too, is a presumption.

Humans have a hard time thinking outside of time, so any example I give will be necessarily imperfect, but think about it like a printing press. When the press hits, it doesn’t print one letter after the other, it prints the entire page at once. The reader (i.e. humanity), however, reads it sequentially, so it seems that some words come before others.

Not bad.

If you prefer an atheistic interpretation (which, from your name I’ll assume you do), it’s still the same thing. The universe came into being with four dimensions. The universe is not bound by any specific perception of time any more than it’s bound by a particular frame of reference for space. Asking “what came before time=0” is like asking “what is to the left of the leftmost point on the universe?”
But asking what happened before the big bang is like asking what happened on page -1 of a book; there are no negative pages.

If God created other mobile being(s) prior to the instantiation of our universe, it can also be presumed that time existed at any point during which there was something more than infinite motionless-ness.

Time is a correlate of motion. No motion, no time. Motion is what we can see and measure. In fact, strangely enough, we measure time by using the mobile. Thus, the universe can (and has) aged. Science says its age is as much a function of “red shift” as it is of “entropy.” But, you knew this.

God bless,
jd

 

[Alterum]

To say that God always existed simply means that the potential to create the universe always existed. But what caused the potential to create the universe – which always existed – to become the actual creation of the universe? And what was the cause of that cause, etc.?

This is incorrect, namely, that to say God “always existed” is to say that potentiality always existed. It looks like you’re asking about the conclusion of a “first mover” argument. The arguments concludes that only something actual can reduce a potentiality to an actuality, so there needs to be something which has no potency but is pure act, “and this,” as Aquinas says, “is what men call God”. In efficient-causal language, the argument concludes that there must be a first uncaused cause.

Unless I’m misinterpreting your question, you’re asking, “what caused the first cause?” or “what reduced the first potency?” But the strictly logical conclusion of “first mover” arguments is that there must be something which is the source of the relevant feature.

Consider the analogy of illumination. An analogous “first mover” argument traces the cause of illumination from, say, the light reflecting off a tree, to the illumination of the air, to the light coming from the sun, to the sun itself. In this analogy, the sun is illumination. Accepting the argument but asking, “what illuminates the sun?” is simply a misunderstanding of the conclusion, which proved that it is logically impossible for the question to regress to infinity.

 

[JDaniel]

This is incorrect, namely, that to say God “always existed” is to say that potentiality always existed. It looks like you’re asking about the conclusion of a “first mover” argument. The arguments concludes that only something actual can reduce a potentiality to an actuality, so there needs to be something which has no potency but is pure act, “and this,” as Aquinas says, “is what men call God”. In efficient-causal language, the argument concludes that there must be a first uncaused cause.

Unless I’m misinterpreting your question, you’re asking, “what caused the first cause?” or “what reduced the first potency?” But the strictly logical conclusion of “first mover” arguments is that there must be something which is the source of the relevant feature.

Consider the analogy of illumination. An analogous “first mover” argument traces the cause of illumination from, say, the light reflecting off a tree, to the illumination of the air, to the light coming from the sun, to the sun itself. In this analogy, the sun is illumination. Accepting the argument but asking, “what illuminates the sun?” is simply a misunderstanding of the conclusion, which proved that it is logically impossible for the question to regress to infinity.

Alterum:

An excellent analogy. The problem is, that so many people conflate the (at least) two meanings of potential.

For some, it is viewed as something akin to a battery, in that there is stored within it, a certain amount of energy - awaiting release. For others, who understand the concept of potency as that which is not yet actual, or actualized, potency takes on a wider meaning. You, of course, know the two senses and can keep them separate, but, alas, many others cannot.

God bless,
jd

 

[Tigress]

“Wisdom comes in knowing that you know nothing.” (Socrates)

Though we can all interpret it as we like I think there is no sure answer. The Bible hints here and there that we were created for worship, but scientifically speaking it took four billion years or so for the first real stars to form after ages of combusting dark matter. Somehow that makes me feel like there is more to the universe than just us; there was so much before us and there is sure to be much after us. As humans we truly know nothing. All we can do is theorize.

 

[empther]

As humans we truly know nothing. All we can do is theorize.

This false humility won’t fool anybody.

We know a lot.

 

[LJH_80]

LJH:

Welcome to CAF.

Thank you. I’ve enjoyed this place so far. (although the wine bar has a slightly bloody taste… is there someone I should talk to about that?)

Aren’t we presuming much when we presume that the universe is the first of God’s creations? Since our science can’t look beyond the first Planck length at the beginning of our universe, we can only presume. (And, of course, that is also a presumption.)

In order to answer this question, I’m going to have to invent some terms, so bear with me a moment.
ourtime= time on the timeline of this universe as we perceive it.
godtime= time on the timeline that God/Heaven experiences.
elsetime#= time for some other creation(s) of God’s.

Okay, ourtime is a property of this universe. There can be no ourtime before the creation of this universe because ourtime is a property of this universe.
However, that does not preclude the idea of additional timelines, by any stretch. God may exist in a universe that experiences godtime, and the angels may experience it with Him (this is just speculation). On the godtime timeline, there is a “before” our universe, and an “after.” Just as with the person operating the printing press, there is a “before I stamped the page” and “after I stamped the page.” But the timeline of the characters on the page has no relation to the timeline of the person who stamped the page.
The printer may also have stamped other pages (other universes) that also have other timelines (elsetime1, elsetime2, etc.). But elsetimes are not on the same timeline as ourtime (Which happened first, from the characters’ point of view: Lord of the RIngs or Star Wars?).

Regarding God being outside ourtime, there are two possibilities. Since ourtime is a property of this universe, it had to have been created when this universe was created, thus God must:
1.) Have exist outside of ourtime, since He created it.
2.) Have created ourtime and the universe as part of the act of creating Himself.
There is a third option: that He didn’t create the universe, but that’s not relevant to a Catholic forum.

Not bad.

Thanks

If God created other mobile being(s) prior to the instantiation of our universe, it can also be presumed that time existed at any point during which there was something more than infinite motionless-ness.

Time is a correlate of motion. No motion, no time. Motion is what we can see and measure. In fact, strangely enough, we measure time by using the mobile. Thus, the universe can (and has) aged. Science says its age is as much a function of “red shift” as it is of “entropy.” But, you knew this.

God bless,
jd

Indeed, but I still don’t get how you are asking what existed before ourtime. Do you agree that ourtime is a component of our universe?
If I’m reading your intentions correctly, you’re going to mention the angels as mobile objects created prior to the universe (this is an assumtpion). But let me ask this: is time, as the angels perceive it affected by acceleration/gravity? I grant it’s an assumption, but I had never considered angels be be subject to the physical laws of our material universe.