What causes misunderstanding of Mary?

[YADA]

I can see that you’re very passionate about this. I wouldn’t say it’s an emotional thing for us though, we just want to make sure we’re always looking to Christ. If Catholics feel that looking to Mary is one way of looking to Christ that’s good. If Protestants feel more comfortable loving Mary and respecting her yet looking straight to Christ then that’s good too.

Romans 14 is quite beautiful and if more read it and understood it we would have greater unity.

Yet you act and your post implies that Catholics do not look directly at Christ … We do look to Christ … as directly as you do … This is not an either through Mary or directly to Christ - one or the other but not both …

I think what you fail to recognize is that no one - not you - not any person comes to Christ directly but through the witness of those who are already in relationship with Christ - that is a hard fact …

Point in fact - even if a person had zero personal contact with another human being - and found a bible and could read it * they could only have a relationship with Jesus because other Christians had valued the life of Christ and recorded that faith into the New Testament and others who loved God gave us the Hebrew texts …

A new Christian is brought into a ‘community’ of believers … sustained by a community of believers and taught by a community of believers …Though there much to admire in the faith lives of our separated brethren - and I do admire much and I am eternally grateful for the love of Christ my early protestant faith entrusted and planted in my heart - one of the fruits of the Protestant phenomena is the constant fracturing of belief that transpires because instead of having a teaching authority in the apostolic leadership - everyone gets to be their own ‘pope’ and create their own reality of faith … again I will remind you that in the protestant reality - Mary has been Ever Virgin [the first 300 years or so], only a Virgin before the birth of Jesus [about 150 to 200 years] to the result of a rape by a roman soldier [a little more then a decade]

Most protestants look to their immediate church community and a bible alone Christian formation … thus their understanding of the scriptures is through the lens of their pastor and the faith tradition espoused by the congregation … if they become disenchanted with the that faith community - they move to one that fits their belief system better … and many times this change over how the faith is interpreted happens many times …

Take artificial methods of birth control - at the dawn of the 20th century all of Christianity - Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant in its many variations were united in the belief that the practice of artificial means of birth control was sinful … the first to fall was the Church of England - who allowed it in the 1930s in very restricted situations for married couples only. The Baptists thought this was wrong - they were most vocal against this change … today virtually all protestant faiths allow and even encourage the use of artificial methods of birth control - The same phenomena is happening with abortion and same sex marriage …

Thus I answer your charge that Catholics do not come directly to Christ - we do … the Catholic Church is totally focused on Christ … but we have a real relationship with those who laid the foundation for us - those who serve God in ways that are inspirational and assist us in our walk with Christ … some who help me are living today. I know a Lutheran couple who inspire me daily as they walk with Christ - she is a prayer warrior. I know many Catholics who are dedicated to leaving the world we live in a better place - the challenge me to be the best me I can be. I am also challenged and inspired by St. Jude and St. Francis of Assisi, and our Mother Mary and her most chaste spouse Joseph … I can learn from them how to live the challenges this life sends me - AND turn to Christ daily and directly - I can and do - both - every day*

 

[57Bill]

With sincerity and in charity I have to ask, how does the Mission emphasize Mary more than Christ? Not in the Mass, surely. The whole of the Mass is centered around Christ, not Mary.

Do they pray the rosary before/after Mass? Here again, the emphasis is on Christ because the rosary follows his life through Mary’s experience of him.

Because they have statues of her? Aren’t there any of Jesus too?

QUOTE]

The missions in CA were founded by Bl. Serra who dedicated his missionary work at the shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe in/near Mexico City. Of the missions I have attended it’s almost a prerequisite to have a side altar or shrine dedicated to Our Lady of Guadalupe as well as many other “Our Mary of…”

I’ve been in a monastery in CA and a church in Massachusetts that besides a small crucifix over the tabernacle and stations of the cross (if one wants to get picky) There wasn’t any other references to Christ…just BVM and the Saint the church was dedicated to.

I can see these as a way to evoke their virtues in oneself as mass is celebrated?

 

[Della]

Della;11275822:

With sincerity and in charity I have to ask, how does the Mission emphasize Mary more than Christ? Not in the Mass, surely. The whole of the Mass is centered around Christ, not Mary.

Do they pray the rosary before/after Mass? Here again, the emphasis is on Christ because the rosary follows his life through Mary’s experience of him.

Because they have statues of her? Aren’t there any of Jesus too?

QUOTE]

The missions in CA were founded by Bl. Serra who dedicated his missionary work at the shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe in/near Mexico City. Of the missions I have attended it’s almost a prerequisite to have a side altar or shrine dedicated to Our Lady of Guadalupe as well as many other “Our Mary of…”

I’ve been in a monastery in CA and a church in Massachusetts that besides a small crucifix over the tabernacle and stations of the cross (if one wants to get picky) There wasn’t any other references to Christ…just BVM and the Saint the church was dedicated to.

I can see these as a way to evoke their virtues in oneself as mass is celebrated?

I think a couple of things might help you understand where we Catholics are coming from:

Firstly, shrines dedicated to Mary are going to feature her, that’s a given, as shrines dedicated to any other saint. However, the liturgies celebrated in them are all centered in Christ.

The size of statues and crucifixes has nothing to do with how Catholics regard Mary or Jesus. As you cited, they are merely reminders of our devotion and aids to faith.

 

[EIF5A]

I was curious about Our Lady of Guadalupe after reading the previous posts, so I did a cursory look online.

Our Lady says, “Know for certain, least of my sons, that I am the perfect and perpetual Virgin Mary, Mother of the True God through whom everything lives, the Lord of all things near and far, the Master of heaven and earth. It is my earnest wish that a temple be built here to my honor. Here I will demonstrate, I will exhibit, I will give all my love, my compassion, my help and my protection to the people. I am your merciful mother, the merciful mother of all of you who live united in this land, and of all mankind, of all those who love me, of those who cry to me, of those who seek me, of those who have confidence in me. Here I will hear their weeping, their sorrow, and will remedy and alleviate all their multiple sufferings, necessities and misfortunes.”

I can imagine what the Protestant response to this is.

Did God give Mary the authority and power to grant alleviation of sufferings and misfortunes? Is it implied that she obtains all graces from her Son, the True God?

 

[Della]

I was curious about Our Lady of Guadalupe after reading the previous posts, so I did a cursory look online.

Our Lady says, “Know for certain, least of my sons, that I am the perfect and perpetual Virgin Mary, Mother of the True God through whom everything lives, the Lord of all things near and far, the Master of heaven and earth. It is my earnest wish that a temple be built here to my honor. Here I will demonstrate, I will exhibit, I will give all my love, my compassion, my help and my protection to the people. I am your merciful mother, the merciful mother of all of you who live united in this land, and of all mankind, of all those who love me, of those who cry to me, of those who seek me, of those who have confidence in me. Here I will hear their weeping, their sorrow, and will remedy and alleviate all their multiple sufferings, necessities and misfortunes.”

I can imagine what the Protestant response to this is.

Did God give Mary the authority and power to grant alleviation of sufferings and misfortunes? Is it implied that she obtains all graces from her Son, the True God?

Anything of merit that any of us do comes from God’s grace working in and through us. Mary, being fully in compliance with God’s will in all things and the one whom he deigns to send to us from time to time to encourage us, certainly can do such things through the power God gives her. Still, it is God who does the giving and Mary who is his instrument, just as we are when we help each other mentally, physically and spiritually.

 

[YADA]

I was curious about Our Lady of Guadalupe after reading the previous posts, so I did a cursory look online.

Our Lady says, “Know for certain, least of my sons, that I am the perfect and perpetual Virgin Mary, Mother of the True God through whom everything lives, the Lord of all things near and far, the Master of heaven and earth. It is my earnest wish that a temple be built here to my honor. Here I will demonstrate, I will exhibit, I will give all my love, my compassion, my help and my protection to the people. I am your merciful mother, the merciful mother of all of you who live united in this land, and of all mankind, of all those who love me, of those who cry to me, of those who seek me, of those who have confidence in me. Here I will hear their weeping, their sorrow, and will remedy and alleviate all their multiple sufferings, necessities and misfortunes.”

I can imagine what the Protestant response to this is.

Did God give Mary the authority and power to grant alleviation of sufferings and misfortunes? Is it implied that she obtains all graces from her Son, the True God?

Yes - Mary advocates for her children and tries to obtain for them the benefits that God wills for them … I believe that Mary first acknowledges that fact by what follows the True God … specifically she states that He is the True God through whom everything lives, the Lord of all things near and far, the Master of heaven and earth. … If Jesus is the Master of heaven and earth and the Lord of All things near and far - Mary could not do anything that Jesus does not allow - nor would she if she is obedient to God …

Jesus - himself - gave His mother for our mother - from the Cross He did this … the apostle John representing us - the adopted sons and daughters …Mary submitted to God’s will with her “let it be done unto me according to Your Word” - Why would she be any different now?

 

[mexolic]

Misunderstandings about Catholic’s view of Mary by non-Catholics I think comes from hearing only the arguments from other non-Catholics. Do non-Catholics ever read or hear about Mary from Catholic sources? Sadly, I would say that’s a major reason and will continue to be so.

 

[hn160]

With sincerity and in charity I have to ask, how does the Mission emphasize Mary more than Christ? Not in the Mass, surely. The whole of the Mass is centered around Christ, not Mary.

Do they pray the rosary before/after Mass? Here again, the emphasis is on Christ because the rosary follows his life through Mary’s experience of him.

Because they have statues of her? Aren’t there any of Jesus too?

Forgive me, but maybe it’s only your perception coming from a Protestant background in which Mary is hardly ever mentioned that it seems she is getting more attention than Christ, when in reality you are simply not used to her being part of your worship experience. Just a thought.

Worship offered to God is sacrificial in nature. It is only to God that we re-present the one sacrifice of Christ and to no one else. Merely praising a saint is not worship anymore than praising a good football player for being good at his game. We do not offer sacrifices to football players because they are good at passing or tackling or whatever else for which they may excel, but we do offer them praise for doing it well. Do you see what I mean?

I probably should have been clearer, what I was referring to was all the art work that was inside the mission church on the walls and or paintings. These mission churches which were constructed by the Spanish to bring Christianity to the Indians are really worth visiting.

 

[dronald]

Yet you act and your post implies that Catholics do not look directly at Christ … We do look to Christ … as directly as you do … This is not an either through Mary or directly to Christ - one or the other but not both …

I think what you fail to recognize is that no one - not you - not any person comes to Christ directly but through the witness of those who are already in relationship with Christ - that is a hard fact …

Thus I answer your charge that Catholics do not come directly to Christ - we do … the Catholic Church is totally focused on Christ … but we have a real relationship with those who laid the foundation for us - those who serve God in ways that are inspirational and assist us in our walk with Christ … some who help me are living today. I know a Lutheran couple who inspire me daily as they walk with Christ - she is a prayer warrior. I know many Catholics who are dedicated to leaving the world we live in a better place - the challenge me to be the best me I can be. I am also challenged and inspired by St. Jude and St. Francis of Assisi, and our Mother Mary and her most chaste spouse Joseph … I can learn from them how to live the challenges this life sends me - AND turn to Christ daily and directly - I can and do - both - every day

So then you don’t look to Mary?

I don’t get how you got all that from my post.

I can see that you’re very passionate about this. I wouldn’t say it’s an emotional thing for us though, we just want to make sure we’re always looking to Christ. If Catholics feel that looking to Mary is one way of looking to Christ that’s good. If Protestants feel more comfortable loving Mary and respecting her yet looking straight to Christ then that’s good too.

Romans 14 is quite beautiful and if more read it and understood it we would have greater unity.

 

[Reuben_J]

… we just want to make sure we’re always looking to Christ. If Catholics feel that looking to Mary is one way of looking to Christ that’s good. If Protestants feel more comfortable loving Mary and respecting her yet looking straight to Christ then that’s good too.

The Catholic’s position is more on the latter and there are Protestants as mentioned who love Mary just like Catholics do.

‘looking to Mary is one way of looking to Christ’ though is true is by no means the primary teaching on her. In fact, this would fall under devotional prayer and practice.

Catholics venerate Mary simply because she is a saint. The fact that she is the mother of Jesus thus the Mother of God makes her a powerful intercessor. We love her in a special way because she is Jesus’ mother and if we are heir to Jesus, she is therefore our mother too. We can only think that Jesus loves his mother, and so do we.

 

[dronald]

The Catholic’s position is more on the latter and there are Protestants as mentioned who love Mary just like Catholics do.

‘looking to Mary is one way of looking to Christ’ though is true is by no means the primary teaching on her. In fact, this would fall under devotional prayer and practice.

Catholics venerate Mary simply because she is a saint. The fact that she is the mother of Jesus thus the Mother of God makes her a powerful intercessor. We love her in a special way because she is Jesus’ mother and if we are heir to Jesus, she is therefore our mother too. We can only think that Jesus loves his mother, and so do we.

So your devotion and reverence to Mary sometimes doesn’t have to do with Christ but with just Mary herself?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I believe many Christians do not think all that much about St Mary. It may be less a misunderstanding and more a disinterest. That may not speak well for many Protestants but so long as they love and follow Christ than there really is no major problem, in my opinion.

Many Lutherans have no opinion on Mary other than the Nativity and at other times when the blessed Virgin is mentioned in the Sunday readings. “He became incarnate from the virgin Mary, and was made man” is said every Sunday in the creed. The Easter eucharistic prayer mentions blessed Mary first among the apostles and saints. Churches are named Our Lady in Europe where there may be a statue or side altar with her image.

Evangelical Catholics may pray the Angelus but otherwise Lutherans believe she is the Mother of God.

Anglicans probably are the same.

 

[tarboy]

That when she “saves”, she takes on the role of the Savior. That prayer to her mean that people are worshipping her. That’s she’s just some ordinary woman.

I think you answered your own question, in the first sentence. The misunderstanding is caused by Catholics, who over reach when describing Mary.

 

[YADA]

So then you don’t look to Mary?

I don’t get how you got all that from my post.

I am not sure what you mean by “look to Mary” … Christ is my Lord and Savior - I look to Him . Mary is our spiritual Mother - she is the best model of Christian discipleship - Mary always leads one to her Son - the King of kings and Lord of lords …

Mary is friend - one who prays for us and brings our needs to Jesus - she is our advocate in her role as our mother - we are Jesus’ younger siblings - sons and daughters by adoption - She prays for us just as I bring the needs of my friends and family in prayer before Jesus.

What is so hard to understand about that? … I am sure you ask people to pray for you - you are not elevating them to a godly status by doing so … My God is the God of the living - and those who have left this life in His friendship - the Saints pray for us and want the best for us … whether that is my spouse who has left this world, Mary, or St Peter or the individual members of my small faith sharing group, or my grandchildren …

We are called to pray for each other and to model a good, faithful Christian life … Mary is unique in all the world - one who every generation has called Blessed - she deserves respect and honor.

One must ask why you think this takes anything away for Christ?

 

[YADA]

Originally Posted by EIF5A View Post
That when she “saves”, she takes on the role of the Savior. That prayer to her mean that people are worshipping her. That’s she’s just some ordinary woman.

I think you answered your own question, in the first sentence. The misunderstanding is caused by Catholics, who over reach when describing Mary.

But who is it that says Mary “SAVES” and takes on the role of the Savior … EIF5A wrote that but offered no example …

Personally, I find more protestants fixated on the Catholics and their Marian beliefs then I find Catholics praying the rosary … I actually know many cradle Catholics who have never prayed a rosary … and more who only do so at funerals …

Fact - the Mass is totally Christ centered - every day except for Good Friday around the world a Mass is said - in many parishes more then one … even on Good Friday a Christ centered liturgy is held … nothing about the Catholic Church is focused other then Christ … but we have 2000 years of communion with Christ and His followers - all around the world - many of which are very inspirational and worthy of our attention. They can assist us in our walk with Christ … and that is something to be proud of - not afraid of nor should we apologize for

 

[dronald]

One must ask why you think this takes anything away for Christ?

This is my issue with what you’ve been saying though; is that I never said this. Not once.

 

[believerdoc]

You say they are not plain truths - but is that really an unbiased statement or does it flow from your point of view as a non-catholic 00 years into this great schism and from what you are taught?

Really - are you aware that all of the original Reformers held that Mary was a perpetual virgin? That this belief that she was not - is something that came out of the “Enlightenment” movement - which is hardly Christian in its very core … but that has been coupled with the point in time that the Church dogmatically declared the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary to deny what has been long held by all of Christianity … the fact that a dogmatic decree was made in a certain year does not mean that no Christian believed it prior to that point. Mary’s title as the Mother of God was the direct result of the Church fighting the Arian heresy - those that denied the divinity of Christ … when the Church theologically proved, declared and stated as an article of faith that Jesus had two natures - human and divine - then Mary has to be the Mother of God - she gave birth to Christ … your [ie Protestantism] turning away from authentic Christian belief has led to nothing but further division and bizarre beliefs - one example is Bishop Spong - who now says that Mary was not even a Virgin when she conceived Jesus - but that Jesus is most probably the result of a rape by a roman soldier

You are correct - this is only in Protestant thought - it is not Catholic in thought or practice … you made this up - like Bishop Spong … it sounds good when you say it - and the more you say it the more you believe it.

• I don’t think you have something against Mary - I do not know you … but the vast majority of protestants * ignore Mary and relegate her to a vessel - an incubator - host that carried Jesus for 9 months and took care of him until he could enter into the world … and they believe that he held her in little esteem - referring to her as “woman” at the marriage feast in Cana and by saying that his family was those who believed and did what God commands - when told that his family was outside the tent and wanted to speak with him … trust me - those passages are used to show that Mary is not important - it may not be hate - but it is definitely not respect - and Protestants are not calling her “Blessed in every generation” -

No Mary - No Jesus … Know Mary - Know Jesus … Mary always points to Christ … In Cana she told them to “do whatever He tells you” - good advice … At the annunciation she answered God’s request for her very life with “Let is be done unto me according to your Word” - the proper response we are to have for God’s call in our life.

This same type of faith and action is also what Jesus referred to when his family was outside the tent - Mary answered God’s call - Mary is Jesus’ mother and ours - He is her first born - we are his brothers by adoption - and He entrusted us to her while He was hanging on the cross … have you taken her into you home and cared for her - accepted her as your spiritual Mother? Shown her respect, look to her for guidance and advice?

Mary is the best example of discipleship we have to model our lives after …*

We did not make anything up; quite the contrary. You cannot point to the fact that the church declares something then validate it by saying we said it so it is true. There must be validation; the validation of sacred scripture.

While I do not believe that it will do any good to debate you because we both know that neither of us will change our beliefs I must take the strongest offense to this statement “No Mary - No Jesus … Know Mary - Know Jesus”. Our Lord was and is in no way dependent on Mary. While I am the first to admit that within Mary all of the fullness of God did dwell in the person of Jesus she is not necessary to the plan of salvation. To say other wise demeans our Lord by saying a created being (Mary) in any way was or is responsible for salvation. As much as Our Lord loved his Blessed Mother He loves us. He is our High Priest, Our Brother, Our Friend, Our Savior, and Our God; no other in all of creation is necessary for salvation. Christ made for us a path to return home to God and in Christ was all totally complete and finished. “No one comes to the Father but by Me”.

Your last statement I totally agree with and most all Protestants accept. Mary was the perfect witness, disciple, and through her total submission to the Will of God is a perfect example of how we should live our lives. That is Protestant theology; other Marian dogma aside she is a wonderful example for us all!!!

 

[YADA]

This is my issue with what you’ve been saying though; is that I never said this. Not once.

… we just want to make sure we’re always looking to Christ. If Catholics feel that looking to Mary is one way of looking to Christ that’s good. If Protestants feel more comfortable loving Mary and respecting her yet looking straight to Christ then that’s good too…

This implies that Catholics do not look directly to Christ - but only look to Christ through the Saints …

Sorry if that is not what you meant to say …

I often times pray direct Christ - most often in fact … though I pray also with the Saints and with my fellow Christians - both Catholic and Protestant … my point is that this is not a matter of one way or the other … its a both and situation … no Saint stands between Jesus and the Catholic Christian … but we are a Communion of believers … the Church Triumphant and the Church Militant … to look to inspiration for a Saint or the believer sitting next to me at Mass does not mean that I don;t have a direct relationship with Christ …by the same token - no one becomes a Christian in a vacuum … we are are initially brought to Christ through the faith of people already in relationship with Christ - and those people - for all of us - include those long dead and still here on earth …

 

[dronald]

This implies that Catholics do not look directly to Christ - but only look to Christ through the Saints …

Sorry if that is not what you meant to say …

I often times pray direct Christ - most often in fact … though I pray also with the Saints and with my fellow Christians - both Catholic and Protestant … my point is that this is not a matter of one way or the other … its a both and situation … no Saint stands between Jesus and the Catholic Christian … but we are a Communion of believers … the Church Triumphant and the Church Militant … to look to inspiration for a Saint or the believer sitting next to me at Mass does not mean that I don;t have a direct relationship with Christ …by the same token - no one becomes a Christian in a vacuum … we are are initially brought to Christ through the faith of people already in relationship with Christ - and those people - for all of us - include those long dead and still here on earth …

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but no that’s not what I wanted to say. I was speaking on a personal level as a non-Catholic how one might feel on their conscience. I also wanted to point out that if one feels like praying to Mary is one way to connect with Jesus that is good too if that’s how a Catholic feels.

Then I mentioned Romans 14.

 

[YADA]

We did not make anything up; quite the contrary. You cannot point to the fact that the church declares something then validate it by saying we said it so it is true. There must be validation; the validation of sacred scripture.

While I do not believe that it will do any good to debate you because we both know that neither of us will change our beliefs I must take the strongest offense to this statement “No Mary - No Jesus … Know Mary - Know Jesus”. Our Lord was and is in no way dependent on Mary. While I am the first to admit that within Mary all of the fullness of God did dwell in the person of Jesus she is not necessary to the plan of salvation. To say other wise demeans our Lord by saying a created being (Mary) in any way was or is responsible for salvation. As much as Our Lord loved his Blessed Mother He loves us. He is our High Priest, Our Brother, Our Friend, Our Savior, and Our God; no other in all of creation is necessary for salvation. Christ made for us a path to return home to God and in Christ was all totally complete and finished. “No one comes to the Father but by Me”.

Your last statement I totally agree with and most all Protestants accept. Mary was the perfect witness, disciple, and through her total submission to the Will of God is a perfect example of how we should live our lives. That is Protestant theology; other Marian dogma aside she is a wonderful example for us all!!!

Mary was necessary because that is the way God decided to have Salvation history play out … why? Got me - when I get to heaven I’ll ask Him … Mary is not our savoir Christ is … Mary is saved by Christ - she still had a major role in how that salvation occurs … I never said that Christ was or is ‘dependent’ on Mary … Christ was born of Mary - Mary said yes to God - if she had not - Salvation history would not have played out as it did … that is the basis upon which the No Mary - No Jesus … is made - but it is just a catch phrase - …

Know Mary - Know Jesus likewise merely means that if one comes to know the mother of Jesus - they cannot but come to know and love her Son - … do you believe that anyone could not ‘listen’ to Mary tell them to do whatever Jesus tells you to do and not want to do as God asks? Do you believe that anyone who contemplated the virgin birth - Mary fiat - which placed her very life in jeopardy - and which she did out of love and obedience to God not come to trust and love that same God when we deal with the trials of this life? … What does it mean that Mary “pondered in her heart” the things God asked of her that she did not understand and which she had trouble grasping? As a parent - you know how much you love your children and how hard it is to let them go to meet their destiny - thinking about Mary and Jesus - her at the foot of the cross - believing in-spite of the anguish she must have felt … do you not see that coming to live Jesus through the eyes of Mary would be to know and love him deeply?

Please don’t forget that the love God inspires in our souls and which we try to put into words not perfect …

Also- the Church and Christian belief existed before the new testament scriptures were written and collected with the Hebrew texts into what we call the Bible … there is nothing that we believe about Mary that is contrary to what is in the scriptures nor has it changed through time in any real degree - some protestant faith traditions have vastly changed what they believe about Mary though - perhaps not you - but some hold some very bizarre ideas