What causes misunderstanding of Mary?

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Contarini said:
I tried to explain.

God, in the person of Jesus, was born of the Virgin Mary. A newborn baby is about as dependent as anyone can be, right?

God, in the person of Jesus, hung on the Cross, totally helpless.

God didn’t need to do these things. The divine nature is totally independent of us and does not need us. God created the world purely out of generosity.

But having done this, and having created human beings with free will, and having allowed us to misuse our free will to get ourselves and all of creation into a terrible mess, God chose to become one of us and thus, in a qualified sense, “dependent” on us.

Edwin
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Ok…I was trying to get you to drop the “in some sense” from your initial expression. “in some sense” leave room for interpretation and the 4th council at Chalcedon was pretty darn specific about the two natures of Christ. “in some sense” in my mind muddys the water a bit.
 
EIF5A said:
Growing up Protestant, it was never taught to me that God gave Mary a choice. I always assumed Christ was Incarnate before Mary even knew and that the angel Gabriel basically told her, “Congratulations, you’ve been selected as a special human being, and you’re carrying the Savior.”
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Mary said in response to the Angel - “Let it be done to me according to your word” … that was her yes to God …

Elizabeth tells us that Mary heard the word of God and believed …

We are all given a free will - we are free to chose** for** God or chose to turn away from God - and we exercise that choice every day - some times it is many times a day …

Praise be to God that Mary said “Yes, Lord”
 
EIF5A said:
Growing up Protestant, it was never taught to me that God gave Mary a choice. I always assumed Christ was Incarnate before Mary even knew and that the angel Gabriel basically told her, “Congratulations, you’ve been selected as a special human being, and you’re carrying the Savior.”
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Ah yes, this goes back to the whole “we are totally depraved” mentality that has poisoned so much of Protestant thinking. If Mary was not a free agent, then total depravity theology may have a leg to stand on. But she was a free agent, and she did make a choice, so that knocks “TD” right out of the picture.
 
Della said:
Ah yes, this goes back to the whole “we are totally depraved” mentality that has poisoned so much of Protestant thinking. If Mary was not a free agent, then total depravity theology may have a leg to stand on. But she was a free agent, and she did make a choice, so that knocks “TD” right out of the picture.
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Total depravity? I don’t think it means what you think it means.
 
concretecamper said:
Ok…I was trying to get you to drop the “in some sense” from your initial expression. “in some sense” leave room for interpretation and the 4th council at Chalcedon was pretty darn specific about the two natures of Christ.
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Chalcedon left some room for development. It was the next Council, 2 Constantinople, which clearly affirmed the formula “One of the Holy Trinity suffered for us.” But of course, Ephesus had already affirmed that Mary is the Theotokos. At any rate, Chalcedon wasn’t as clear as all that or there wouldn’t have been more Councils, would there?
“in some sense” in my mind muddys the water a bit.
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Intentionally. I don’t think we will ever fully understand the paradox. Chalcedon, by itself, could seem to limit the paradox a bit too much.

Edwin
 
For those who “don’t understand” a picture is worth 1000 words:

Pictures of groups of people and the pope kneeling before a statue of Mary.

When you walk into a Catholic Church how is Jesus represented?
  1. As a helpless infant
  2. As a helpless pathetic dead person.
So it’s easy to see why people get this idea. Even if it is a misunderstanding.
 
Hockeygurl said:
For those who “don’t understand” a picture is worth 1000 words:

Pictures of groups of people and the pope kneeling before a statue of Mary.

When you walk into a Catholic Church how is Jesus represented?
  1. As a helpless infant
  2. As a helpless pathetic dead person.
So it’s easy to see why people get this idea. Even if it is a misunderstanding.
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  1. He lowered Himself to become one of us.
  2. Well, He did die. And brought about our salvation as a result. I’m sorry if that’s “pathetic” to you.
 
EIF5A said:
  1. He lowered Himself to become one of us.
  2. Well, He did die. And brought about our salvation as a result. I’m sorry if that’s “pathetic” to you.
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To a person new to Christianity… what would you think when you see these things? I am just saying that one has to take SOME responsibility as to how they may “appear” to others… unless you don’t care, which you probably don’t. But then don’t whine when everyone “assumes” things about your religion.

As an outsider looking in… I understand what causes the misunderstandings… I was just answering the question… that sometimes a picture is worth 1000 words.

How is Mary represented? How are the saints represented? I just feel this CAN be misleading to non-catholics.
 
Hockeygurl said:
To a person new to Christianity… what would you think when you see these things? I am just saying that one has to take SOME responsibility as to how they may “appear” to others… unless you don’t care, which you probably don’t. But then don’t whine when everyone “assumes” things about your religion.
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New to Christianity? Or new to a Protestant denomination that falsely accuses Catholics of Marian worship and fills minds with defamatory ideas?

Only God is worshipped. But He allows humans to participate in His plans. Some have been chosen for great things. Some have been chosen for more common things. Showing honor and veneration to those God has chosen is not worship.

If some Protestants refuse to acknowledge the difference even when explained to them, then there’s nothing more that can be done.
 
NovusAugustus said:
My statement is not actual Church doctrine, it is just a poetic statement of that doctrine. When I say the Church is Mary’s legacy, I am simply saying that Mary was the first Christian. Mary did not save, and neither does the Church, but both Mary and the Church respond to God’s will by starting (Mary) and continuing (the Church) the work of salvation. Mary, like the Church, exists to devote herself to Christ. That is why we honor (or, using the archaic sense of the word, “worship”) Mary.
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I know Lutherans honor Mary and the rest of the Saints. I have really tried to get around praying through Mary, but struggle because of my background. I know Saints are praying for us because it is written in Scripture. I would definitely be Catholic if I could pray though her because everything else in Catholicism is fairly easy for me understand.
 
Hockeygurl said:
How is Mary represented? How are the saints represented? I just feel this CAN be misleading to non-catholics.
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As the Mother of God, Jesus. As a queen. As a woman with head covering and blue cloak. As a woman that tramples on the serpent.

Saints sometimes hold the Crucifix. Or pray. Or wield weapons. As a cloud of witnesses in heaven praying.
 
EIF5A said:
As the Mother of God, Jesus. As a queen. As a woman with head covering and blue cloak. As a woman that tramples on the serpent.

Saints sometimes hold the Crucifix. Or pray. Or wield weapons. As a cloud of witnesses in heaven praying.
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Ok, I see you are not understanding my point. I will try to explain it a little clearer if I can.

People who do not understand what the Catholic Church actually believes, MAY interpret these things they see as Mary and the Saints being more powerful, or they can be of more help than Christ because Jesus is represented in a more “helpless” form.

I NEVER said I agreed… in fact I believe I said it IS a misunderstanding… I am just trying to provide a perspective as to WHY there is a misunderstanding. But unless you stand at the church door and “explain” what you really believe to non-catholics, people will assume what they will.
 
Hockeygurl said:
To a person new to Christianity… what would you think when you see these things? I am just saying that one has to take SOME responsibility as to how they may “appear” to others… unless you don’t care, which you probably don’t. But then don’t whine when everyone “assumes” things about your religion.

As an outsider looking in… I understand what causes the misunderstandings… I was just answering the question… that sometimes a picture is worth 1000 words.

How is Mary represented? How are the saints represented? I just feel this CAN be misleading to non-catholics.
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But your picture is unrealistic and a caricature of authentic Catholic belief and practice … like glimpsing a movement in the rear view mirror out of the corner of your eye - and declaring you see the big picture - just saying …

Equally true by your standards of picture is worth a 1000 words - for a large number of protestant churches I would say Jesus has no role at all - not as Lord or God - that your worship is centered on secular electronic media, charismatic personalities and an appeal for money … I don’t see either Christ crucified nor the Christ Child
 
Hockeygurl said:
Ok, I see you are not understanding my point. I will try to explain it a little clearer if I can.

People who do not understand what the Catholic Church actually believes, MAY interpret these things they see as Mary and the Saints being more powerful, or they can be of more help than Christ because Jesus is represented in a more “helpless” form.

I NEVER said I agreed… in fact I believe I said it IS a misunderstanding… I am just trying to provide a perspective as to WHY there is a misunderstanding. But unless you stand at the church door and “explain” what you really believe to non-catholics, people will assume what they will.
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So you have never been to many Catholic Churches - there are many representations of Christ in art [statues, stain glass, Iconography] that are not Christ as a Child nor Christ crucified … The Sacred Heart of Jesus is a common one …

But the Church is not defined by its architecture and furnishings … you mentioned kneeling …

We kneel in reverence during every Mass - the Mass is 100 percent scriptural - and we hear God’s word proclaimed in the prayers, in the Old Testament reading and the Psalm, in the New Testament reading of the letters and in the Gospel reading - which we hold in such respect that we stand to hear it proclaimed …

A Mass - a public corporate worship of Christ - is held every single day of the year - except Good Friday where another liturgy is held - all over the world … how often does your community come together to worship Christ? …to hear His Word proclaimed? , once a week? …

Everyday - the Catholics feed people, provide medical care for people, educate people and house people all over the world in the name of Christ … does not not count for what people see of the Church ?.. Or is all that counts to you is that you believe we have ‘powerful’ [whatever that means] statues of Mary and other Saints and Jesus [powerless] on a Cross - .

Though I would argue that Jesus’ Sacrificial Act of Self Giving Love for us on the Cross -*** is in fact the most powerful act that ever occurred in the history of mankind ***…

Can you identify by name something more powerful then that? Let me know if you do … I am anxious to learn what it might be …
 
YADA said:
But your picture is unrealistic and a caricature of authentic Catholic belief and practice … like glimpsing a movement in the rear view mirror out of the corner of your eye - and declaring you see the big picture - just saying …

Equally true by your standards of picture is worth a 1000 words - for a large number of protestant churches I would say Jesus has no role at all - not as Lord or God - that your worship is centered on secular electronic media, charismatic personalities and an appeal for money … I don’t see either Christ crucified nor the Christ Child
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Yes, like glimpsing out of the corner of your eye. … BUT you are giving people WAY too much credit. They don’t take the time to take a 2nd look. I’m sorry but I didn’t put the caricature out there… but it is… and no one has gotten rid of it yet. Otherwise there would be no misunderstandings.

Are you debating or trying to be unfriendly? I’m not sure…

Just like I am sure you don’t like people telling you what you believe… why are you “generalizing” ALL protestants.

I know the church I was raised in (LCMS-sorry, no charismatic preachers NOR electronic rock music/media) had no statues of Jesus nor anyone else either. We did however have an empty cross which symbolizes the resurrection and the defeat over death. And you are right… to someone who didn’t know what that represented they may believe there is no Jesus. However, I would think that someone seeing the Cross would think that Christ is somewhere in there… Now maybe I am giving them too much credit!

Hey, I just answered the question and was trying to be helpful to the OP…Trying NICELY to provide a different perspective… Sorry if you didn’t take it that way.
 
Contarini said:
Chalcedon left some room for development. It was the next Council, 2 Constantinople, which clearly affirmed the formula “One of the Holy Trinity suffered for us.” But of course, Ephesus had already affirmed that Mary is the Theotokos. At any rate, Chalcedon wasn’t as clear as all that or there wouldn’t have been more Councils, would there?

Intentionally. I don’t think we will ever fully understand the paradox. Chalcedon, by itself, could seem to limit the paradox a bit too much.

Edwin
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I understand your point…
 
YADA said:
So you have never been to many Catholic Churches - there are many representations of Christ in art [statues, stain glass, Iconography] that are not Christ as a Child nor Christ crucified … The Sacred Heart of Jesus is a common one …

But the Church is not defined by its architecture and furnishings … you mentioned kneeling …
We kneel in reverence during every Mass - the Mass is 100 percent scriptural - and we hear God’s word proclaimed in the prayers, in the Old Testament reading and the Psalm, in the New Testament reading of the letters and in the Gospel reading - which we hold in such respect that we stand to hear it proclaimed …

A Mass - a public corporate worship of Christ - is held every single day of the year - except Good Friday where another liturgy is held - all over the world … how often does your community come together to worship Christ? …to hear His Word proclaimed? , once a week? …

Everyday - the Catholics feed people, provide medical care for people, educate people and house people all over the world in the name of Christ … does not not count for what people see of the Church ?.. Or is all that counts to you is that you believe we have ‘powerful’ [whatever that means] statues of Mary and other Saints and Jesus [powerless] on a Cross - .

Though I would argue that Jesus’ Sacrificial Act of Self Giving Love for us on the Cross -*** is in fact the most powerful act that ever occurred in the history of mankind ***…

Can you identify by name something more powerful then that? Let me know if you do … I am anxious to learn what it might be …
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Ok, someone it getting touchy for NO reason.

I NEVER mentioned kneeling… I think you are mistaken? Oh, I mentioned kneeling only in the context of before a statue and a picture could be taken wrong… I was not talking about kneeling during Mass.

I have no control over how other people may view images, art etc…

I believe I said they MISTAKENLY think this way… why can’t you understand that.

I would say the self giving act not only on the cross, but through his torture, perseverance, and resurrection IS the most powerful act that ever occurred in the history of mankind.

You are preaching to the choir… I may have listed myself as protestant affiliation, but I NEVER said I didn’t agree with the Catholic position… but it was only after educating myself on what Catholics REALLY believe that I finally overcame my misunderstandings.

I really don’t get what the problem is…
 
Hockeygurl said:
Ok, someone it getting touchy for NO reason.

…
I really don’t get what the problem is…
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I am sorry you took offense … and I am glad you don’t feel that way

My point is that in reality the Church is very visible - as noted in the work that the Church does in the world. This is even true if the only peek inside of a Catholic Church you have experienced is from Hollywood movies …

That if the image of the Church is as you depicted - it has to be contrived - it is not real … that is my point , even one taking a cursory look at the Church would not initially see the truncated “Catholics only worship Mary” view … I am not a cradle catholic - I know what it is to be an outsider and walk into a Catholic Church … to know the Church from the periphery … Only a person who comes with a preformed bias would reduce the Church to the worship of Saints with no real presence of Christ. You really need to come looking for Mary worship to find it
 
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