What causes misunderstanding of Mary?

[Hockeygurl]

AH! Thank you Yada!

FYI… My 3 kids actually went to a catholic school. So I have spent a LOT of time in a Catholic Church which is why I am here searching like many others…

 

[YADA]

My grandchildren go to our parish school …

Good luck in your searching … Life is a journey and each of us has to study and learn for ourselves … it is what gives our life meaning

Me = well I am a history buff and I ask questions!! - my mom said I could ask 5000 questions a day …

So when I was trying to grasp Christianity and the multiple - and often contradictory practices of the many variations that exist - for me it was mind boggling. In several churches I heard that the Catholics were in error and that the early church was hidden for many years before being restored in the 1500s …

Another story I heard was that there were some Christians that became cut off from the rest of the world for a long time and that was used as a proof that the Catholics went astray … I heard that at Church of Christ summer camp, from my Baptist family and in non-denominational “Bible” churches … No real facts - just a story told as fact with no details - as I got older I was curious about these ‘cutoff Christians’ I had heard the story so consistently that I never doubted it was true - that story was told along with the “underground church, persecution and being fed to lions” etc. …

That one story though - as a student who loved history - I wanted to know about them - where had this occurred geographically? When did this happen and how long were they cut-off? How were they re-united with the rest of the world? What did their church worship services look like? What ‘scriptures’ did they use and have at their disposal? How was their church organized? I had some very specific questions … and never found or was provided any answers about this ‘cutoff Christian Community’ …

However, I was able to read the scriptures and the writings of the early church fathers - the history of the Great Schism, the reformation and counter reformation, the crusades, etc …

Reading the writings of those early Christians brought me to the Church - when I read them - the teachings, the church in worship and organization - all is very Catholic - it resembled nothing like I had experienced in attending Baptist, Assembly of God, Methodist, Lutheran, Church of Christ, Presbyterian, Episcopal nor any of the non-affiliated evangelical or Bible churches I attended …

I worked with RCIA - for 15 years - and the reasons people decide to join the Church [or against joining] - are as individual as the people themselves our goal was not to bring everyone into the Church either - it was to be a resource and companion on the walk - to help them discern if God was calling them home with us

 

[JonNC]

=Hockeygurl;11280777]Yes, like glimpsing out of the corner of your eye. … BUT you are giving people WAY too much credit. They don’t take the time to take a 2nd look. I’m sorry but I didn’t put the caricature out there… but it is… and no one has gotten rid of it yet. Otherwise there would be no misunderstandings.

Rectifying a misunderstanding usually requires participation and effort from the one who misunderstands, as well. Just sayin’.

Just like I am sure you don’t like people telling you what you believe… why are you “generalizing” ALL protestants.

A common problem not only here, but also among some Lutherans.

I know the church I was raised in (LCMS-sorry, no charismatic preachers NOR electronic rock music/media) had no statues of Jesus nor anyone else either. We did however have an empty cross which symbolizes the resurrection and the defeat over death.

I won’t apologize for there being few charismatics in the LCMS, nor am I particularly fond of the praise bands that do exist in LCMS parishes. But I wish to clarify your empty cross comment; from what I can tell, the use of the empty cross is atypical in European Lutheran parishes, and I suspect only more common here in the US due to what I said above - Lutherans trying to appear run of the mill protestant. Now, while there is nothing wrong with the bare cross, the crucifix is perhaps an even better symbol of the reality that we, as Lutherans, preach Christ, and Him crucified.
Our parish has a large crucifix hanging over the altar, and our synod president, Rev. Matthew Harrison, has called for a return to the use of iconography in Lutheran places of worship, so that our sanctuaries look Lutheran and not Reformed.

Jon

 

[Hockeygurl]

Jon… I find that very interesting.

Where are you at? I am in northern Minnesota where the Germans and the Scandinavians (Finnish) tended to settle.

I was brought up in the LCMS church in 2 different towns in MN… both of them very similar. I have been non-active (but attended occasionally) for the past 10 years or so… just trying to find my way through the maze. We tend to have liturgy very close to Catholics… I NEVER saw a charismatic preacher nor ever attended a “modern” ( musical/ alternative) worship service… they were not offered in my towns. I am searching because I just didn’t like the answers I was given to my questions. Which is why I am on this frustratingly long journey… I don’t like any of the answers I have gotten so far.

1. Because the church says so… really? God created intelligence for a reason… so you should at least be able to defend the position. YADA is a great historian and I realize I have a LOT to learn… but am I wrong for seeking intelligent Answers?
2. I am not yet ready to just totally submit… I am sorry if that is offensive but it’s real and it’s my journey! Although the more I educate myself the more I can reconcile my feelings.
3. I don’t understand why… when I just responded honestly to a question… I get attacked. (Not a friendly way to respond to a person offering a different perspective and excuse me but very “stereotypical” of a protestants view of how Catholics act toward others.) About as welcoming and understanding as when you show up new at Mass.
   A. If people didn’t want an honest answer to the question. why did they ask it?
   B. I am sick and tired of having to repeat that I don’t necessarily feel that way ,but it is what I perceive as being a cause (From experience).

Maybe the crucifix is closer to being the real symbol. I don’t know. .I never made a claim that any particular symbol is right, but only an opinion of how I have viewed it in the past… all. I know is that the death is JUST as great as the Resurrection. From my perspective the resurrection is what defines Christianity… because… any crazy person could convince others he is the messiah and die to prove it… but only one person could have rose from the dead, … and convinced others that it was true enough to die for what they saw and believed. Plus,
I am a little squeamish… so I kind of get sick when I look at blood and torture…

If you feel good praying for Mary’s intercession… OK. I accept that. But why am I wrong in enjoying an empty cross because of a resurrected Jesus.

From what I have learned the church has never dogmatically defined what the “cross/crucifix” should look like. So does it matter in the grand scheme of things?

 

[YADA]

, but am I wrong for seeking intelligent Answers?

I’m not Jon - but no - you should seek intelligent answers I do …

1. I am not yet ready to just totally submit… I am sorry if that is offensive but it’s real and it’s my journey! Although the more I educate myself the more I can reconcile my feelings.

I do not believe that anyone wants you to submit - um … not sure what you would submit to

If you feel good praying for Mary’s intercession… OK. I accept that. But why am I wrong in enjoying an empty cross because of a resurrected Jesus.

No one is forcing you to pray for Mary’s intercession - the discussion was misunderstandings - as in Catholics worshiping Mary and other Saints … I am sorry that no of the answers here have resonated with you …

I guess I find it hard to understand why people don’t comprehend the communion of Saints and our Lord being the God of the living and not the dead and Mary being the first and best example of Christian discipleship …

That coupled with the Christ centered Sacrifice of the Mass that occurs each and every day - except Good Friday when a non Mass Liturgy is offered … all over the world and for over 2000 years … The Church is the longest organization in existence … no country or company has been in continual operation for anywhere near 2000 years - if that does not speak to divine intervention - what could

Becomes Mary worship … just hard to fathom

From what I have learned the church has never dogmatically defined what the “cross/crucifix” should look like. So does it matter in the grand scheme of things?

The Church does require a cross **with corpus ** present at the altar when Mass is offered … specifically a cross with corpus [crucufix] … so even during Lent - when we shroud the large crucifix in the Church and substitute a bare cross as is done in my home parish … a small crucifix will be place at the altar during the Mass

FYI - I know many cradle Catholics who never say a rosary or pray to Mary or other Saints … some who only do this at funeral services [in place of a Vigil Service] … and some Catholics don;t realize that the Church has a Vigil Service Liturgy because they only have experienced the Rosary … Mary and the other Saints are there - its up to the individual whether to seek them out … similarly - you can ask your friend to pray for you - many don’t avai themselves of that assistance either - go figure …

 

[Reuben_J]

If you feel good praying for Mary’s intercession… OK. I accept that. But why am I wrong in enjoying an empty cross because of a resurrected Jesus.

From what I have learned the church has never dogmatically defined what the “cross/crucifix” should look like. So does it matter in the grand scheme of things?

I think the discussion on the empty cross came about because of the attack on the Catholic’s crucifix. There is nothing wrong with the empty cross as there is none on the crucifix. Both carry a message. However, there are Protestants who are against the crucifix due to some reasons.

 

[JonNC]

=Hockeygurl;11284657]Jon… I find that very interesting.

Where are you at? I am in northern Minnesota where the Germans and the Scandinavians (Finnish) tended to settle.

North Carolina, but I was raised in Pa.

I was brought up in the LCMS church in 2 different towns in MN… both of them very similar. I have been non-active (but attended occasionally) for the past 10 years or so… just trying to find my way through the maze. We tend to have liturgy very close to Catholics… I NEVER saw a charismatic preacher nor ever attended a “modern” ( musical/ alternative) worship service… they were not offered in my towns. I am searching because I just didn’t like the answers I was given to my questions. Which is why I am on this frustratingly long journey… I don’t like any of the answers I have gotten so far.

As a rule, you won’t find very many Charismatics in the LCMS. Lutheran Divine Service sounds like Catholic Mass because its roots are in the Mass. The Confessions of the Lutheran Church call it The Mass.
If I can be of help with questions you have, you can certainly PM me.

1. Because the church says so… really? God created intelligence for a reason… so you should at least be able to defend the position. YADA is a great historian and I realize I have a LOT to learn… but am I wrong for seeking intelligent Answers?

As a Lutheran, when it comes to doctrine, that’s the same answer you should get. Of course its ok to ask questions, but for confessional Lutherans, doctrine is doctrine, and doctrine is determined by the Church.

1. I am not yet ready to just totally submit… I am sorry if that is offensive but it’s real and it’s my journey! Although the more I educate myself the more I can reconcile my feelings.

Submit in what way? For me I feel more like trusting than submitting.

1. I don’t understand why… when I just responded honestly to a question… I get attacked. (Not a friendly way to respond to a person offering a different perspective and excuse me but very “stereotypical” of a protestants view of how Catholics act toward others.) About as welcoming and understanding as when you show up new at Mass.
   A. If people didn’t want an honest answer to the question. why did they ask it?
   B. I am sick and tired of having to repeat that I don’t necessarily feel that way ,but it is what I perceive as being a cause (From experience).

This is one for YADA to answer.

Maybe the crucifix is closer to being the real symbol. I don’t know. .I never made a claim that any particular symbol is right, but only an opinion of how I have viewed it in the past… all. I know is that the death is JUST as great as the Resurrection. From my perspective the resurrection is what defines Christianity… because… any crazy person could convince others he is the messiah and die to prove it… but only one person could have rose from the dead, … and convinced others that it was true enough to die for what they saw and believed.

Neither did I make a claim. I just wanted you to know that, historically, the crucifix is a typical feature of a Lutheran sanctuary. Without the passion, there is no resurrection.

Plus,
I am a little squeamish… so I kind of get sick when I look at blood and torture…

I understand.

If you feel good praying for Mary’s intercession… OK. I accept that. But why am I wrong in enjoying an empty cross because of a resurrected Jesus.

I don’t practice invocation, and there’s nothing wrong with an empty cross.

From what I have learned the church has never dogmatically defined what the “cross/crucifix” should look like. So does it matter in the grand scheme of things?

Only in your understanding that the crucifix is part of our Lutheran tradition.

Jon

 

[SteveVH]

Ok, I see you are not understanding my point. I will try to explain it a little clearer if I can.

People who do not understand what the Catholic Church actually believes, MAY interpret these things they see as Mary and the Saints being more powerful, or they can be of more help than Christ because Jesus is represented in a more “helpless” form.

I NEVER said I agreed… in fact I believe I said it IS a misunderstanding… I am just trying to provide a perspective as to WHY there is a misunderstanding. But unless you stand at the church door and “explain” what you really believe to non-catholics, people will assume what they will.

I actually agree that it would be very easy to misconstrue. Without prior knowledge of the intention of the person or the teaching of the Church it is not unreasonable that one witnessing a Catholic kneeling down before a statue of Mary and praying could be misinterpreted.

However, for one to persist in the belief that this constitutes idolatry without investigating the truth behind the action is irresponsible.