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Annunciata
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Now this I like Asteroid!:clapping:
I have you on my prayer list while you are going through RCIA (used to teach it) …welcome on your journey home to to the fullness of the Faith!
God Bless,
Annunciata
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I have you on my prayer list while you are going through RCIA (used to teach it) …welcome on your journey home to to the fullness of the Faith!
God Bless,
Annunciata
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foolintherain
Guest
I have a Baptist friend
(Hey who doesn’t, right? and BTW should “Baptist” be capitalized?.. different thread I guess… anyway)
this friend of mine makes statements against the RCC and some of them are completely outlandish like, “I disagree with about 90% of what the Catholic Church says.” When in reality he actually agrees with 90% or more! Usually that remaining 10% are the hard social questions we all struggle to reconcile Catholic or not.
My point is that the anti-Catholic will focus on what they don’t agree with rather than the commonality and point to the faithless as representative of the whole. They will point (as my friend has) to our stained glass windows and gold leaf and guilded cups as “proof” of our vanity and pride. But they will not look at themselves and say it is proud to assume salvation because of faith alone.
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Annunciata
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Yes, Baptist should be capitaized and I was a Baptist… And Yes, I believe pride is at the root of it…I think more than love as some posters have stated before… Again, what some don’t understand, they ATTACK and I still say that most often it boils down to fear! Annunciata
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Annunciata
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I started this thread because I really wanted to know what your thoughts were on the above…And, I stated that I felt that it was out of fear…I’m going to add another reason beside pride or ignorance as have already been mentioned…I think it is out of self-love…love of what they know and anyone having a different view is a threat to their puffed up self importance so they set out to attack…to even discredit.
What a shame. Sometimes I wonder what our Protestant brethern think of some us here when they read some of these posts of so-called Catholics spewing venom upon each other?
Annunciata
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George2
Guest
It is the sin of pride.
They know in their hearts that their arguments have flaws or are completely untenable but they have too much pride to admit they are wrong.
I was a bible believing protestant for three years. I had so much confidence in what I was being taught until I started to examine each document.
Ironically, it was a buddhist dentist who told me to have a “wide mind” - to be objective.
Objectively speaking, I can find no teaching superior to Catholicism and I believe Christ is our Lord and Savior - even of those who reject His Holy Church.
They know in their hearts that their arguments have flaws or are completely untenable but they have too much pride to admit they are wrong.
I was a bible believing protestant for three years. I had so much confidence in what I was being taught until I started to examine each document.
Ironically, it was a buddhist dentist who told me to have a “wide mind” - to be objective.
Objectively speaking, I can find no teaching superior to Catholicism and I believe Christ is our Lord and Savior - even of those who reject His Holy Church.
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patricius
Guest
Another perspective on the fear hypothesis:
I’ve seen bumper stickers that say “If you’re living like there’s no God, YOU’D BETTER BE RIGHT!” Couldn’t we also say, “If you’re living like sola fide is true, You’d better be right?”
Also, I think many fundamentalist Christians subconsciously realize that history is on the Catholics’ side-- after all if you believe in some kind of “faithful remnant” of persecuted Baptists existing unnoticed throughout Christian history, then you’re pretty much a conspiracy theorist. And isn’t there a saying that being a conspiracy theorist makes you paranoid and cranky? (I.e., “the Jesuits are taking over the country?”-- obviously an extreme example.)
As for intra-Church attacks, I think it’s the Utopia paradox in action-- if you think you can create a perfect world, it’s easy to psychologically justify the most horrible actions in order to bring that world about. A lot of Catholics feel like the Church would be so great if only… you fill in the blank.
I’ve seen bumper stickers that say “If you’re living like there’s no God, YOU’D BETTER BE RIGHT!” Couldn’t we also say, “If you’re living like sola fide is true, You’d better be right?”
Also, I think many fundamentalist Christians subconsciously realize that history is on the Catholics’ side-- after all if you believe in some kind of “faithful remnant” of persecuted Baptists existing unnoticed throughout Christian history, then you’re pretty much a conspiracy theorist. And isn’t there a saying that being a conspiracy theorist makes you paranoid and cranky? (I.e., “the Jesuits are taking over the country?”-- obviously an extreme example.)
As for intra-Church attacks, I think it’s the Utopia paradox in action-- if you think you can create a perfect world, it’s easy to psychologically justify the most horrible actions in order to bring that world about. A lot of Catholics feel like the Church would be so great if only… you fill in the blank.
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FelixBlue
Guest
To add to the above (fear, pride/arrogance, ignorance) an honest difference of view (strongly held!) has to be recognized.
I have been thinking about this issue the past few days and have wondered what the MO of making arguments should be. Certainly charity…but what does that mean? What does it allow? Looking throughout Church history, there are some pretty obnoxious characters…St. Jerome is one that comes to mind…yet a Saint.
I was thinking about this and wondering if St. Paul went to far in telling the pro-circumcision crowd to “go all the way and emasculate themselves!” I was wondering what type of a statement this was: sarcasm? humor? what? and is it appropriate to a saint? Any thoughts?
I have been thinking about this issue the past few days and have wondered what the MO of making arguments should be. Certainly charity…but what does that mean? What does it allow? Looking throughout Church history, there are some pretty obnoxious characters…St. Jerome is one that comes to mind…yet a Saint.
I was thinking about this and wondering if St. Paul went to far in telling the pro-circumcision crowd to “go all the way and emasculate themselves!” I was wondering what type of a statement this was: sarcasm? humor? what? and is it appropriate to a saint? Any thoughts?
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jmm08
Guest
I am in RCIA. But I used to order Jack Chick’s tracts – in case you don’t know Jack Chick is a big-time anti-Catholic. And I’ve read most of his stuff. I had a lot of mis-trust to overcome just to think that Catholics might be right. Even my priest doesn’t understand how much junk I had to come through. “Trail of blood”, etc. I think if he knew any better that he should mis-trust me and suppose that I might be under-cover and not genuine about converting.
Not necessarily in any order:
(a) Pride. When you see somebody doing a lot better than yourself. Pride means that you must find something to put the other person down. So you feel better about yourself. Humility means that you see the truth and perhaps you will ask the other person to help you. This trap is really very common even among Christians. More than you think.
(b) Envy. When you see somebody doing a lot better. You dislike the other person because they didn’t deserve it. Example: where I was working. Somebody really didn’t like so-and-so because they got to be division president and made gobs of money more than we did. My co-worker didn’t think they deserved it. It made them angry.
(c) Ignorance. If a blind person were to knock your coffee over and it spilled all over you, would you want to hit them? I hope not. Some people do what they do because they don’t see. They don’t understand. What they do is a mistake that they cannot understand.
(d) Lies. See Matthew 13:24-30 and 13:37-42. When it comes to the Catholic Church (vs. other Christian denominations), the devil is working overtime in an effort to hide the truth. There are a lot of weeds and a lot of lies. If you believed the lies or if you only saw the weeds then you might think you hate the Catholic Church. The secret is that we must look at the best Catholics (the Saints) and not the worst, the mediocre or the average. Then we see what God has done.
(e) Scourging. Hebrews 12:6 “for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges”. This is obviously happening in the Roman Catholic Church today, worldwide. Perhaps some of those who persecute the Church have been sent by God Himself.
None of these reasons gives us any reason to hate the person back.
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Annunciata
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Oh yes…I’m familiar w/ Jack Chick and what he does is so very evil…I know people who were indoctrinated by these tracts…Perfect example of an attack on the Faith…
Very good examples and insights… God Bless, Annunciata
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jmm08
Guest
I honestly don’t know why Jack Chick has so much anti-Catholic stuff. I suppose he falls under the category of believing, dwelling on and thinking a lot about the lies. Or that he sees, dwells on and focuses on the weeds. I suppose the secret is to dwell on the best and not on the worst.Oh yes…I’m familiar w/ Jack Chick and what he does is so very evil…I know people who were indoctrinated by these tracts…Perfect example of an attack on the Faith…
Very good examples and insights… God Bless, Annunciata
(a) Dwell on the very best Roman Catholics.
vs (b) dwell on the very best _______ (fill in the blank other Christian denomination)
If you compare the worst of x denomination vs the best of y denomination, then of course y is going to win every time. But it is an unfair comparison.
Jack Chick’s other stuff is very good (or so I always thought).
Years ago, he even did some great graphics for my best friend’s tracts.
In short (my complete thoughts were longer), this was how I discovered that Jack Chick was wrong about the Roman Catholics.
I decided to count only on Bible scriptures that are plain and not controversial. Otherwise how do I know what Bible translation to use? And I decided to count on external evidence such as how I see other people live their lives. The scriptural backing for my method of determination is John 7:15-20. The context of John 7:15-20 is set up in John 7:13-14. I’m paraphrasing: The correct way that leads to life is narrow. Those who find it are few. There are many false prophets. And how can I determine the right way if I am lost. If I am a lost sheep, how can I find the Good Shepherd?
If Jack Chick is right, then Roman Catholics are idol worshippers and they cannot exhibit the fruit of the Holy Spirit. As Christians we know idol worshippers don’t get very far at all with God.
If Roman Catholics are right, then Protestants are “separated brethren” who do sometimes exhibit the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
I decided that Fulton Sheen showed great wisdom in his writing. And at the core of his belief was Eucharistic Adoration – what Jack Chick says is futile idol worship. How could Jack Chick explain that? I don’t think he could. This is the main reason behind my initial inquiry.
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Exporter
Guest
A psychological trick used by large business and educational institutions is the “Protect Your Turf” ploy.
Lets say there is a problem that needs solving. The results of the meeting will be used to impliment the solution.
We have four groups of four individuals. We had a leader who gave the problem. Each group has time to devise a solution. Then all four groups tell their solution.
As a discussion develops we will see each group will defend their own solution. This is called protecting your own turf.
Attackers of Catholics are protecting their own turf.
Lets say there is a problem that needs solving. The results of the meeting will be used to impliment the solution.
We have four groups of four individuals. We had a leader who gave the problem. Each group has time to devise a solution. Then all four groups tell their solution.
As a discussion develops we will see each group will defend their own solution. This is called protecting your own turf.
Attackers of Catholics are protecting their own turf.
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Annunciata
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All I know is, from the awful stuff I have seen from this man is that he must be intrinsically evil …may God have mercy on his soul! I’ll pray for his conversion. Annunciata
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jmm08
Guest
Jack Chick strongly advocates reading a lot from the Bible every day. At least 10 chapters a day.All I know is, from the awful stuff I have seen from this man is that he must be intrinsically evil …may God have mercy on his soul! I’ll pray for his conversion. Annunciata
One of the 10 chapters is alternate reading 1 Corinthians 13 and Hebrews 11 (read one then the other over and over and over).
I greatly hesitate to judge Jack Chick as evil. I think he just doesn’t know the truth about the Catholic Church. If he really thought certain people were in danger for their lives for what they knew about the Catholic Church, then why is he still alive? I had a lot of mis-trust to overcome. But I know nothing about any Roman Catholic wanting to kill an evil abortionist (for example).
One additional observation: if somebody is making a living as a Protestant Minister, or otherwise similarly making a living (selling tracts). It is very difficult for that person to see a different way (such as becoming a Catholic), because that means they will lose their job or their income. So Roman Catholicism can become a threat to their livelihood.
Case in point: the silversmiths making Artemis idols in Ephesus were so upset with St. Paul.
Perhaps one of the reasons that I was able to consider becoming a Catholic (and not seeing any threat), was that I never derived any income from my ministry (I was ordained in 1987 and had a part-time ministry in evangelism from 12/1984 through 3/1991 – usually only a few hours each week). My ministry was only an expense and I figured God would never allow me to go broke from incidental ministry expenses. Some pastors of Protestant Churches get a rather large salary – the pastor of my Baptist Church is a little north of $100,000 US / year (but please note that northern VA is an expensive place to live and I am sure he is strongly expected to give at least 10% of the gross back to our Church). Clergy in the Roman Catholic Church do not get paid great sums. And that is a comfort to me. Because if a RC Priest actually changed his mind, he could probably just leave the Church without worrying about a loss in income. They probably might even make more money in a non-ministerial position somewhere. Maybe even find a romantic interest. No – it is rather obvious that the RC clergy are in the Church because they want to serve our Lord.
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Annunciata
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I’m sorry Jmm…I disagree w/ you if not evil then I’ll use the word hateful! His tracks have done a lot of harm to the innocent…he even has his cohorts go to World Youth Days to pass out this stuff to our youth!!!..And, Satan quotes Scripture too…! Annunciata
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
It’s short, it’s sweet, it’s true! I vote for Apologia’s erudite summation!
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excatholic
Guest
Friend you have got it all wrong, we don’t say you are going to hell. It is the RCC that condemns us to hell for not believing in Transubstantiation and the rest of the RCC dogma. Check out the council of Trent under sacraments and Eucharist. It says I am anathema (condemned). Before you go pointing a finger make sure it is pointed in the right direction. Hell is a disaster friend and the RCC puts me there because I am an ex catholic and I am supposed to know the truth. I do know the truth when I see it and I know a lie when I see it. RCC dogma is a lie because I am saved by grace and not by my works, and the pope in all of his power can not condemn me to hell even though RCC canonized dogma gives him that authority.I would agree that some is a fear of the unknown; “the threatening stranger”. But I am convinced that most of us do not like and are not comfortable with change. We are like the moving body described in elementary physics. Our lives have momentum and direction and it takes some force to change our trajectory through life. It is easiest to just continue on like we always have in the past. New directions are stressful and threatening and lets face it sometimes not for the best. Evangelicals feel a strong need to bring others to faith in Jesus Christ. To bring them to “being saved”. In their interpretation of scripture we Catholics are bound for hell and they very realistically understand that ending up in hell is a total disaster. Makes them fervent for souls. I think sometimes that that is one valuble attitude we Catholics sometimes lack, fervor for souls.
Jesus brother not the RCC dogma.
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Annunciata
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I think I’ll put you on my ignore list! I’ll pray for you though… that you see the error of your ways and repent and come back home where you belong! Shame on you! Annunciata
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excatholic
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Annunciata: Funny but that is exactly what the council of Trent says, you must be a good catholic. If you think I have lied check it out for yourself. I covet your prayer friend but I am home to stay. You can ignore me but Paul says you and I are members of the same church and that is the church of messianic believers. I’ll see you in heaven weather you like it or not. Pray for the RCC they need it more than me.I think I’ll put you on my ignore list! I’ll pray for you though… that you see the error of your ways and repent and come back home where you belong! Shame on you! Annunciata
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jeffreedy789
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our friend excath posted: ‘RCC dogma is a lie because I am saved by grace and not by my works’
you realize that your position contradicts scripture, right? this is an area that i truly cannot understand how you guys live inside your own heads (no offense intended). you KNOW the Bible says ‘work out your salvation with fear and trembling’ and you KNOW the Bible says ‘so you see that you’re justified by what you do, and not by faith alone’ (james 2:24), yet you continue to say you believe everything the Bible says, and you DON’T believe that works have anything to do with salvation. how do you do it?
excath also said that he’ll be in heaven whether we like it or not. we certainly like it, excath. we want you there, believe it or not.
and the RCC teaches that those outside of the church can be saved. you’re arguing against an old interpretation of the council.
but you know that already, don’t you? you’re just being argumentative.
i adjure you as a fellow christian, excath, to think about and pray about the role of obedience in the life of a christian. not argue about it. not refute it. not deny it. i ask you to please pray about the role of obedience.
it was the role of obedience in my life, among many other things, that brought me into the catholic church. i pray that obedience to Him will bring you as much joy as it has brought me.
you realize that your position contradicts scripture, right? this is an area that i truly cannot understand how you guys live inside your own heads (no offense intended). you KNOW the Bible says ‘work out your salvation with fear and trembling’ and you KNOW the Bible says ‘so you see that you’re justified by what you do, and not by faith alone’ (james 2:24), yet you continue to say you believe everything the Bible says, and you DON’T believe that works have anything to do with salvation. how do you do it?
excath also said that he’ll be in heaven whether we like it or not. we certainly like it, excath. we want you there, believe it or not.
and the RCC teaches that those outside of the church can be saved. you’re arguing against an old interpretation of the council.
but you know that already, don’t you? you’re just being argumentative.
i adjure you as a fellow christian, excath, to think about and pray about the role of obedience in the life of a christian. not argue about it. not refute it. not deny it. i ask you to please pray about the role of obedience.
it was the role of obedience in my life, among many other things, that brought me into the catholic church. i pray that obedience to Him will bring you as much joy as it has brought me.
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excatholic
Guest
jeffreedy789 I am not being argumentative, I have read the council of trent and your dogma states that once something becomes canon law it is law forever. I would recommend you read Eph.2:8-9 and then read James where he says faith without works is dead. The works come as a result of being saved in that order. Saved by grace first and then good works will come.
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