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triumphguy
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about a million dollars worth per year per store.
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Abundant
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I think that the problem when addressing the needs of the poor vs the “rich,” is that there are 2 types of rich people and 2 types of poor people. Let me demonstrate: My sister and I come from the same background. I am married, have 2 children, a college education and my husband and I make over $200k per year. Sounds great, right? Well…we also have a very high income tax rate (38% I think), pay huge property taxes (about $6k per year here in Texas) and my cost to work is high (childcare at over $1500 per month, gasoline at about $600 a month, tolls which I have to pay to get to work), and am paying the government back about 8% on my student loans, etc. I have medical and dental insurance which come out of my check, a deductible to meet on top of the automatic deductions, and then when I take my kids to the doctor or dentist there is my co-pay and other random out of pocket expenses.
Then, there is my sister: She has 3 kids, by 3 different fathers and has only been married to one of them. She receives child support from one, lives in a nice apartment in the Texas Hill Country. The government pays her rent, her utilities and the apartment complex that she lives in gives her the difference at the end of the month in cash. She gets food stamps. When she takes her kids to the dentist or doctor it is on the government dollar (remember my 38% in taxes? ) and she has no out of pocket. So, not only does she NOT work, but she also does not pay insurance, rent, utilities, food or medical costs. I on the other hand, went to college, get up every day and go to work and have to pay for all of that and THEN pay more in taxes on top of it.
Now, who is abusing who? The rich abusing the poor or the poor abusing the rich?
At the same time, I fully understand that not all people are like my sister. Many of them are poor through no fault of their own.Maybe they suffer from physical or mental illness. Maybe they are undocumented immigrants. Maybe they had to raise their own brothers and sisters and were never able to get an education. There are a lot of really good ‘reasons’ that someone may be trapped in poverty.
What we need is a system that will provide EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. Everyone should be able to get a quality education. Every child should be fed, clothed and housed. Everyone should be able to get medical and dental care. These are basic needs. Once that state of equality is reached, then there would be no abuse of power by the rich (as in the example of undocumented immigrants not being able to earn a living wage) or by the poor (as in the example I outline above of someone simply choosing not to contribute their fair share.
Then, there is my sister: She has 3 kids, by 3 different fathers and has only been married to one of them. She receives child support from one, lives in a nice apartment in the Texas Hill Country. The government pays her rent, her utilities and the apartment complex that she lives in gives her the difference at the end of the month in cash. She gets food stamps. When she takes her kids to the dentist or doctor it is on the government dollar (remember my 38% in taxes? ) and she has no out of pocket. So, not only does she NOT work, but she also does not pay insurance, rent, utilities, food or medical costs. I on the other hand, went to college, get up every day and go to work and have to pay for all of that and THEN pay more in taxes on top of it.
Now, who is abusing who? The rich abusing the poor or the poor abusing the rich?
At the same time, I fully understand that not all people are like my sister. Many of them are poor through no fault of their own.Maybe they suffer from physical or mental illness. Maybe they are undocumented immigrants. Maybe they had to raise their own brothers and sisters and were never able to get an education. There are a lot of really good ‘reasons’ that someone may be trapped in poverty.
What we need is a system that will provide EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. Everyone should be able to get a quality education. Every child should be fed, clothed and housed. Everyone should be able to get medical and dental care. These are basic needs. Once that state of equality is reached, then there would be no abuse of power by the rich (as in the example of undocumented immigrants not being able to earn a living wage) or by the poor (as in the example I outline above of someone simply choosing not to contribute their fair share.
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epan
Guest
I have heard Michael Sandel (Harvard) point out that our basic rights are “unalienable” in the sense that they cannot be traded away. For example, a person may not sell herself into slavery, as freedom is an unalienable right. In addition, these rights are granted from God as Natural Law, and only God my revoke or infringe these rights. No person, nor any government may take these rights. Since taxation is the taking of one’s labor, one’s time and one’s freedom, under the founding principles espoused by John Locke, and the founding documents, the State has no right to tax us.
But, go ahead and make that argument in tax court, and see what happens.
Libertarianism would take an even harder view on this idea.
Here is Sandel, if you are interested in his fascinating lecture series on social justice. It is the most popular course at Harvard.
justiceharvard.org/2011/02/episode-04/#watch
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andrewstx
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While I am disabled to the degree of being unable to drive, work, walk without a walker or cane, or even dress and groom myself without assistance I get no funds from the gov other than $700 a month SSI and medicade or what’s left of it in Texas. That is it. I qualify for a Lone Star card (food stamps) I do not take them.
That is $8,400 a year compared to your $200,000 per anuum. And you think I am abusing you?
I would trade places with you anytime, to be an able bodied and minded (I had a bad stroke 9 years ago), would be a dream come true to me. And knowing how things really are I would be less self centered and more generous.
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Abundant
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Seems like you need to read what I said again…to the end perhaps where I mention that many people are disabled or have otherwise legitimate reasons not to work. I do believe that the systems we have in place now FAIL people like you and that is who we need to focus on. My mother had a stroke in 2010, lost everything on her left side and her speech almost completely. She is not yet 50 and only gets $700 a month also. But there are also people in the system, like my sister, who are literally taking money away from those who deserve it. Would you not agree that is abusive as well?
That is why I said that there are TWO types of rich people (givers and exploiters) and TWO types of poor (those who exploit the system for all its worth and ruin it for the rest, and those who are truly victims of poverty and deserving of help.)
As for being self centered and generous…you know nothing of me, my lifestyle or my spending or giving habits, so please do not presume to and I will do the same.
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triumphguy
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I’m not picking on anyone but 38% (if it is 38%) is the highest tax bracket, not what you get taxed on your whole income.
Let’s say husband and wife both make $100,000, totaling $200,000 and they file separately, and have no deductions for 401K
calculator.net/take-home-pay-calculator.html?cannualincome=100000&cpayfrequency=Monthly&cfilestatus=MarriedSeparately&callowance=2&cdeduction=0&cstatetax=0&ccitytax=0&cadditionat1=no&x=71&y=17
2012 Monthly Pay of Annual Income of $100,000.00 (Before the American Taxpayer Relief Act of 2012)
Amount gross pay $8,333.33
federal income tax $1,514.96
social security tax $350.00
medicare tax $120.83
state income tax $0.00
city income tax $0.00
deductions $0.00
final pay check $6,347.54
for a total after tax income of of $12,695.08
Let’s say husband and wife both make $100,000, totaling $200,000 and they file separately, and have no deductions for 401K
calculator.net/take-home-pay-calculator.html?cannualincome=100000&cpayfrequency=Monthly&cfilestatus=MarriedSeparately&callowance=2&cdeduction=0&cstatetax=0&ccitytax=0&cadditionat1=no&x=71&y=17
2012 Monthly Pay of Annual Income of $100,000.00 (Before the American Taxpayer Relief Act of 2012)
Amount gross pay $8,333.33
federal income tax $1,514.96
social security tax $350.00
medicare tax $120.83
state income tax $0.00
city income tax $0.00
deductions $0.00
final pay check $6,347.54
for a total after tax income of of $12,695.08
- 1,500 for babysitting (is this deductible against tax?)
= 11,195.08 - 600 for gas
= 10,595.08
-500 for property tax
= 10,095.08 month after tax, property tax and childcare, and gas.
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Abundant
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No worries…I don’t think I’m in a bad place at all. Of course that doesn’t take into account tithing, mortgage, car, car insurance, utilities, food, medical deductibles, clothes, etc. ANd we each max out our 401k. Either way…we have certainly been blessed and we know that everything we have comes from God and would gladly surrender it to him at any time. We have been without. We have lived on Raman noodles and beans for months at a time, take out payday loans and bounced checks because there was not enough money to get us to payday. But we worked hard, we prayed and we trusted God. I was literally breast feeding a newborn baby while finishing my essays for college in the middle of the night. The title of this thread was all about making the rich villains and that is certainly not true. I am willing to help in any and every way possible those who cannot do for themselves and who through no fault of their own endure poverty. Sure there are people that make great incomes like us and give nothing! But there are also poor people who are perfectly able, just not willing to pull themselves up from their bootstraps and make it work.
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Lochias
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Non sequitor purple taco? Ice cream bones. Stop changing the topic. Jesus explicitly said that we are all to take care of the poor. The rich are more able to do that. What it is, exactly, that you’re missing about what Jesus said?
Plenty. Keep right on discussing me instead of the issue, and see how far it gets you.
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Lochias
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Neither side can be painted with a broad brush, it’s true. But I hate, hate, HATE the expression “pull yourselves up by your boot straps”. Sometimes, it’s only luck that enables someone to rise out of destitute poverty. Telling them to “get at it” only rubs salt into the wound.
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hazcompat
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James 1:9 The brother in lowly circumstances* should take pride in his high standing, 10and the rich one in his lowliness, for he will pass away “like the flower of the field.” 11For the sun comes up with its scorching heat and dries up the grass, its flower droops, and the beauty of its appearance vanishes. So will the rich person fade away in the midst of his pursuits.
Peace
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hazcompat
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Luke 6:
Sermon on the Plain.
20* And raising his eyes toward his disciples he said:
“Blessed are you who are poor,*for the kingdom of God is yours.
21Blessed are you who are now hungry,for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who are now weeping,for you will laugh.
22Blessed are you when people hate you,and when they exclude and insult you,
and denounce your name as evilon account of the Son of Man.
23Rejoice and leap for joy on that day! Behold, your reward will be great in heaven. For their ancestors treated the prophets in the same way.
24But woe to you who are rich,for you have received your consolation.
25But woe to you who are filled now,for you will be hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,for you will grieve and weep.
26Woe to you when all speak well of you,for their ancestors treated the false prophets in this way
Peace
Sermon on the Plain.
20* And raising his eyes toward his disciples he said:
“Blessed are you who are poor,*for the kingdom of God is yours.
21Blessed are you who are now hungry,for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who are now weeping,for you will laugh.
22Blessed are you when people hate you,and when they exclude and insult you,
and denounce your name as evilon account of the Son of Man.
23Rejoice and leap for joy on that day! Behold, your reward will be great in heaven. For their ancestors treated the prophets in the same way.
24But woe to you who are rich,for you have received your consolation.
25But woe to you who are filled now,for you will be hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,for you will grieve and weep.
26Woe to you when all speak well of you,for their ancestors treated the false prophets in this way
Peace
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hazcompat
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Luke 12:16Then he told them a parable. “There was a rich man whose land produced a bountiful harvest. 17He asked himself, ‘What shall I do, for I do not have space to store my harvest?’ 18And he said, ‘This is what I shall do: I shall tear down my barns and build larger ones. There I shall store all my grain and other goods 19j and I shall say to myself, “Now as for you, you have so many good things stored up for many years, rest, eat, drink, be merry!”’k 20But God said to him, ‘You fool, this night your life will be demanded of you; and the things you have prepared, to whom will they belong?’ 21Thus will it be for the one who stores up treasure for himself but is not rich in what matters to God.”*
usccb.org/bible/lk/12:16
Peace
usccb.org/bible/lk/12:16
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hazcompat
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The Venerable Fulton J. Sheen Archbishop
Part V: The Fifth Word and the Virtue of Temperance
…
The basis of the Catholic secret of temperance and discipline is exchange. All life is founded on exchange … We get light in exchange for heat; bread in exchange for a dime. If you want to be an expert in mathematics you have to give up being an expert in tennis; if you want to give your body all its satisfactions, you have to give up the joys of the soul.
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A saint is always joyful, but our modern pleasure-hunter is always melancholy. He is not really happy, because he laughs too much. The laughter is artificially stimulated from the outside by a stooge with a wise-crack; it is not a joy that proceeds from the inside because of a duty fulfilled out of love of God. Happiness comes from self-possession through temperance, not from self-expression through license.
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Loving enemies out of a divine intention is worth more than loving friends out of a personal satisfaction. The philanthropists who give millions to erect art museums, libraries, and playgrounds out of purely humanitarian reasons will not further their eternal salvation as much as the poor widow who gives a nickel to a poor man on the street because in his need she sees the poverty of Christ.
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It is not what is given that profits unto salvation; it is why it is given. That is why a friendly meal given to an enemy in the name of Him who loved us when we were His enemies, is worth more on the day of our judgment than a 50 million dollar hospital given to perpetuate a family name. There is no injustice in this. Each gets the reward he wanted: In one instance, the love of Christ; in the other, the memory of men.
…
Great sacrifices without love are worthless for the soul; nor because they are great does it follow they were done with love; it is the motive that matters – do them out of love of God!
littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2013/03/fulton-sheen-part-v-fifth-word-and.html
Peace
Part V: The Fifth Word and the Virtue of Temperance
…
The basis of the Catholic secret of temperance and discipline is exchange. All life is founded on exchange … We get light in exchange for heat; bread in exchange for a dime. If you want to be an expert in mathematics you have to give up being an expert in tennis; if you want to give your body all its satisfactions, you have to give up the joys of the soul.
…
A saint is always joyful, but our modern pleasure-hunter is always melancholy. He is not really happy, because he laughs too much. The laughter is artificially stimulated from the outside by a stooge with a wise-crack; it is not a joy that proceeds from the inside because of a duty fulfilled out of love of God. Happiness comes from self-possession through temperance, not from self-expression through license.
…
Loving enemies out of a divine intention is worth more than loving friends out of a personal satisfaction. The philanthropists who give millions to erect art museums, libraries, and playgrounds out of purely humanitarian reasons will not further their eternal salvation as much as the poor widow who gives a nickel to a poor man on the street because in his need she sees the poverty of Christ.
…
It is not what is given that profits unto salvation; it is why it is given. That is why a friendly meal given to an enemy in the name of Him who loved us when we were His enemies, is worth more on the day of our judgment than a 50 million dollar hospital given to perpetuate a family name. There is no injustice in this. Each gets the reward he wanted: In one instance, the love of Christ; in the other, the memory of men.
…
Great sacrifices without love are worthless for the soul; nor because they are great does it follow they were done with love; it is the motive that matters – do them out of love of God!
littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2013/03/fulton-sheen-part-v-fifth-word-and.html
Peace
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SamH
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I wonder why that is?
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Lochias
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The cure for that is to actually read the post.
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SamH
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I did. Actually I don’t have to wonder at all.The cure for that is to actually read the post.
Today, wanting someone else’s money is called ‘need,’ wanting to keep your own money is called ‘greed,’ and ‘compassion’ is when politicians arrange the transfer.
Joseph Sobran
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Lochias
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april32010
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your sister and her three children, so no i don’t think this situation is abusive.if she was single i probably would.and i have no issue with a mother staying home with her children.if more mothers did this a lot of the problems this country is facing wouldn’t exist.
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