What Chages would you make in the Tridentine Mass

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lak611 said:
The organic changes actually did happen. The 1962 Missal is not the same as the 1955 Missal. There have been changes over the years, but none have been too drastic.
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Exactly my point. So, to put the 1962 missal in a “lockbox” (said like Al Gore) would be totally NOT in keeping with tradition. There should continue to be subtle changes as the Church sees fit.
 
Audible canon. I don’t have a problem with the silent canon. I just do not prefer it for my own spiritual good. I’m glad to have the audible canon. It has greatly helped me. Before the bullets fly, this is just the effect the audible canon has had on me. I don’t expect it to be the same for all. Hopefully the bolds help! 😉
 
estesbob said:
Yes. And it will make a comeback-in fact it culd replace the NO if ONLY its uses the vernacualr and updates the readings…
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Once you give an inch —some will take a mile. Change leads to more change—eventually the TLM may look like a NO wannabe.
 
Most of the changes requested were the same ones that Vatican II made to create the NO Mass. But then we have all seen what the end results have been. So please leave the TLM alone and remember that it is old and needs protected from modern changes.🙂
 
Sure said:
See, this is exactly why traditionalists get a bad reputation.
You are assuming that anyone who would propose to change the TLM would also want to weaken the theology and the teaching of the Catholic Faith
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The Novus Ordo did not change organically. It was abrupt and drastic.
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kleary said:
  1. The language of the TLM is Latin. Latin is used to show the unity of the Church. The Latin language never changes like living languages do. The defense of the use of the Latin language vs vernacular translations is extensively documented. No mistakes come from the priest praying the Latin words- the meaning of words stays the same. You can see this already in the ICEL translations vs the original Latin text from Rome in the Novus Ordo.
  2. If you regularly attend the TLM like I do you do not see what I see. I see no meaning given to using a three year cycle of readings. To me, the Epistle and Gospel are not sung for my instruction, they are sung in worship of God.
  3. The direction the priest faces, the direction the Epistle is sung, the direction the Gospel is sung, all have an embedded liturgical meaning. You jave to understand that everything in the TLM teaches us something, and if you change anything, then you change what it is teaching us, what it is showing us and others about the Faith.
The Latin Language is the enemy of all who hate the truth. In the TLM the Deacon faces “North” and sings the Gospel in Latin. North is the direction of the pagans- and he sings the Truth in Latin in their direction.

And to make changes so that it “opens it’s beauty to generations of Catholics”??? That is absurd. NOTHING needs to be changed to the TLM at all to attract people. Wherever it happens many people come, many people attend. That is how it is here in my area.

Ken
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Thank you well said.👍
 
stmaria said:
What I would change in the TLM is the sermon. The sermons in the TLM tend to be too harsh, too instructive, too catholic. I have actually heard sermons about no salvation outside the Church! Sermons on invincible ignorance! Sermons on Fatima! Sermons on Freemasonry and even one that stated that missing Mass on a Sunday was a mortal sin! This must stop! The sermons should be gentle, more loving. Sermons about the dignity of man, how all religions, even pagan religions have truth and hilliness! That’s what the TLM needs.
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Figuring this is said tongue in cheek I will take this for satire. When we went to the TLM in Pittsburgh we had a wonderful sermon on abortion and the evil it truly is. In our NO parish we have never had one sermon on the subject.
 
estesbob said:
👍 The dont change one iota of the TM is why it is doubtful it will ever catch on . Put it in the vernacular, update the readings and calendar of saints and it could replace the N.O.
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I more or less agree. I think something approximating the Knott missal would be popular. It may even make people warm up to the Latin more if they’ve heard the mass in English enough that they already know what is being said.

Personally, I think any changes made to the TLM should be “options” rather than absolute changes. If a parish wants to use the 1962 missal and reading cylce, then let them - but if a parish wants to use an updated version of the 1962 missal in English, then let them. Indeed, some parishes may use both.

IMO, the modern calendar should probably be scrapped and a new one created modelled after the 1962 calendar. This “new” calendar would then be the only one for the Roman rite. The three year lectionary could then be revised/re-arranged to conform to the new organic calendar. Thus, a parish could use either cycle of readings but still celebrate the same Holy Days.
 
estesbob said:
Yes. And it will make a comeback-in fact it culd replace the NO if ONLY its uses the vernacualr and updates the readings…
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Interesting you say that. Essentially, that was what was tried right after Vatican II. Apparently those changes were not drastic enough for the how shall I say it, the more progressive among us? So we got what we now have instead. No, I don’t think turning the clock back to 65 and starting over to reform the Traditional Mass is the way to go. :eek:

We’ve already tried it. It didn’t work and everyone including the Holy Father knows it. Some things should just stay the way they are.
 
I believe that the TLM should stick with Latin. I disagree with those who say it won’t “catch on”, in fact I think that it is already “catching on.” A couple Popes commented on this:

“The day the Church abandons her universal tongue is the day before she returns to the catacombs.”

Pope Pius XII

“The Catholic Church has a dignity far surpassing that of any
merely human society. For it was founded by Christ the Lord.
It is altogether fitting, therefore, that the language it uses should
be noble, majestic, and non-vernacular.”

Pope John XXIII, " Veterum Sapientiae" 22 February 1962
 
stmaria said:
The Novus Ordo did not change organically. It was abrupt and drastic.
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I never said that it did. I said that traditionalists should not be opposed to organic change within the TLM. To oppose such a thing would be to oppose 2000 years of liturgical tradition. I never said anything about the OF.
 
Sure said:
I never said that it did. I said that traditionalists should not be opposed to organic change within the TLM. To oppose such a thing would be to oppose 2000 years of liturgical tradition. I never said anything about the OF.
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This is what you said:
“One can certainly call for the TLM to change ORGANICALLY **as liturgies should **without compromising the Faith”

I agree with you. Liturgies should change organically over time.But the Novus Ordo did not. It was a sudden and drastic change.
 
stmaria said:
This is what you said:
“One can certainly call for the TLM to change ORGANICALLY **as liturgies should **without compromising the Faith”

I agree with you. Liturgies should change organically over time.But the Novus Ordo did not. It was a sudden and drastic change.
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Yes, we agree. I made no mention of the OF at all. Only of the TLM.
 
SemperFidelis said:
I believe that the TLM should stick with Latin. I disagree with those who say it won’t “catch on”, in fact I think that it is already “catching on.” A couple Popes commented on this:

“The day the Church abandons her universal tongue is the day before she returns to the catacombs.”

Pope Pius XII

“The Catholic Church has a dignity far surpassing that of any
merely human society. For it was founded by Christ the Lord.
It is altogether fitting, therefore, that the language it uses should
be noble, majestic, and non-vernacular.”

Pope John XXIII, " Veterum Sapientiae" 22 February 1962
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The over 45 years that have passed since the latest of these statements were made have proven the Popes to be wrong.

If the Tridentine Mss is left in Latin and continues to use archaic readings it will never be more than a fringe mass attended by very few people. You can tilt at windmills all you want and blaame bishops and recalcitrant Priests for suppressing the Mass but in the end there is very little demand for a Latin mass
 
estesbob said:
The over 45 years that have passed since the latest of these statements were made have proven the Popes to be wrong.

If the Tridentine Mss is left in Latin and continues to use archaic readings it will never be more than a fringe mass attended by very few people. You can tilt at windmills all you want and blaame bishops and recalcitrant Priests for suppressing the Mass but in the end there is very little demand for a Latin mass
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There is very little demand for lots of things Catholic.

How many own a Catechism? How many read Scripture? How many have devotions like a novena or a rosary? How many spend time in Adoration? How many actually speak and act out against abortion and contraception? And how many are willing to answer to their vocational calling?

Whatever that small number may be, it should be increased… not discounted because of size.

But then, one who might see the value of one item on my short listing, usually sees the value of all of them.

.
 
Leave everything as it is EXCEPT:
  • Lectionary of 1970, including the new calendar.
  • Canon out loud.
  • People making the responses and reciting or singing the Ordinary (unless there is a choral extravaganza) – as in the “dialogue Mass” of Pius XII.
  • At High Mass, remaining standing throughout the Gloria.
 
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