What Chages would you make in the Tridentine Mass

[estesbob]

There is very little demand for lots of things Catholic.

How many own a Catechism? How many read Scripture? How many have devotions like a novena or a rosary? How many spend time in Adoration? How many actually speak and act out against abortion and contraception? And how many are willing to answer to their vocational calling?

Whatever that small number may be, it should be increased… not discounted because of size.

But then, one who might see the value of one item on my short listing, usually sees the value of all of them.

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How much demand would there be for the Cathecism if it were written in Latin? How many would read Scripture if it were in latin? how many would seek guidance of the Church if their spiritual advisor spoke to them in latin? How many will respond to those who speak out against abortion and contraception if they did so in latin?

 

[Cat]

Shouldn’t we be less concerned about our own desires and more concerned for lost souls? How will these poor souls come to know Jesus if the preachers don’t speak their language?

In Acts 2, the first work of the Holy Spirit was to give those in the Upper Room the gift of other tongues, so that all who were in the streets heard them speaking the Gospel in their own language.

I recently finished reading a biography of St. Francis of Assissi describing how he broken “tradition” and preached in the language of the people, and how he used “drama” in the Mass instead of just a homily. And it worked–according to this bio, St. Francis possibly saved the Church from demise.

If it was good enough for St. Francis–pray for us!–isn’t it good enough for us?

I think that most Protestants, many of whom I fear will be lost to heaven, would utterly reject a church service (Mass) in Latin. It would mean nothing but gibberish to them, unless the Holy Spirit gave them the gift of interpretation of tongues.

But if they attend a Mass in their own language, they will at least have a hope of hearing the Gospel and being persuaded to come home to the Church of Jesus Christ.

I would be willing to hear the Mass in ANY language if it means that souls are being won for the Kingdom of Christ.

 

[mercygate]

Shouldn’t we be less concerned about our own desires and more concerned for lost souls? How will these poor souls come to know Jesus if the preachers don’t speak their language?

In Acts 2, the first work of the Holy Spirit was to give those in the Upper Room the gift of other tongues, so that all who were in the streets heard them speaking the Gospel in their own language.

I recently finished reading a biography of St. Francis of Assissi describing how he broken “tradition” and preached in the language of the people, and how he used “drama” in the Mass instead of just a homily. And it worked–according to this bio, St. Francis possibly saved the Church from demise.

If it was good enough for St. Francis–pray for us!–isn’t it good enough for us?

I think that most Protestants, many of whom I fear will be lost to heaven, would utterly reject a church service (Mass) in Latin. It would mean nothing but gibberish to them, unless the Holy Spirit gave them the gift of interpretation of tongues.

But if they attend a Mass in their own language, they will at least have a hope of hearing the Gospel and being persuaded to come home to the Church of Jesus Christ.

I would be willing to hear the Mass in ANY language if it means that souls are being won for the Kingdom of Christ.

Preaching and readings at the TLM ARE in the vernacular. The only hurdle is learning the Latin of the Mass itself. Admittedly SOME people really find this unbearably daunting. Others have little trouble with it because IT NEVER CHANGES.

This is the beauty of allowing both the Ordinary and Extraordinary forms of the Mass to stand side by side. We can accommodate “seekers” AND those who are well-schooled and comfortable with a more challenging, richer liturgical expression.

 

[bear06]

Click here to see why I like the silent canon.

I’ve read this many times. I disagree with some parts of the it. Also, it would be quite wonderful to be able to put all of my focus on the external signs of the liturgical action. I long for the day when that will happen. That said, as a mother of small children, it’s more often than not impossible for me to do so. This is why I love the audible canon. It allows me to put as much focus as possible on the consecration even when my little darlings decide otherwise. Often when I attend the EF, I simply miss the boat completely. Now, as I’ve said before, many here are not in the same circumstance as I am and I’m not always going to be in this circumstance. However, there will always be someone in my circumstance whether or not it’s me. As a mother of youngsters (and my husband also feels the same) the audible canon is very beneficial to our spiritual lives.

 

[MrS]

How much demand would there be for the Cathecism if it were written in Latin? How many would read Scripture if it were in latin? how many would seek guidance of the Church if their spiritual advisor spoke to them in latin? How many will respond to those who speak out against abortion and contraception if they did so in latin?

probably just those who take JPII to heart and “…be not afraid” of taxing a few brain cells.

However, to compare the continuance (never abrogated) of Latin in the Sacred Liturgy with using Latin in every day speech and writing, and conversation…

well… that says a lot about those who just don’t get it.

 

[Cat]

Preaching and readings at the TLM ARE in the vernacular. The only hurdle is learning the Latin of the Mass itself. Admittedly SOME people really find this unbearably daunting. Others have little trouble with it because IT NEVER CHANGES.

This is the beauty of allowing both the Ordinary and Extraordinary forms of the Mass to stand side by side. We can accommodate “seekers” AND those who are well-schooled and comfortable with a more challenging, richer liturgical expression.

Thank you for this post. I am so glad that the NO Mass is around. Earlier, another poster mentioned that he/she finds the TLM “entertaining.” That’s how I feel, and when i hear so many posters talking about how wonderful it is, I just don’t get it.

 

[ravenonthecross]

On the English Side of the TLM missal, it is the TLM translated from Latin into A reverant Elizabethan form of English. Why not just use that reverant form of English to have an English TLM. This “English” TLM High dialogue mass, combined with an audible canon, will encourage piety, and quell the disent against the TLM, and with both the Latin TLM, and this proposed English TLM, one could not ony more easily accept the Tridentine Mass, but spread reverence throughout the Roman rite. This effect will cause NOMers to celebrate their liturgy with more Reverence, and solemnity, perhaps St-Agnes style—Latin NO mass with incense, ad orientem, Gregorian chant, kneeling at mass, communion on the tongue at altar rails, Latin-English Missals and the Readings, and Homily in English.

 

[SemiTrad]

I’ve read this many times. I disagree with some parts of the it. Also, it would be quite wonderful to be able to put all of my focus on the external signs of the liturgical action. I long for the day when that will happen. That said, as a mother of small children, it’s more often than not impossible for me to do so. This is why I love the audible canon. It allows me to put as much focus as possible on the consecration even when my little darlings decide otherwise. Often when I attend the EF, I simply miss the boat completely. Now, as I’ve said before, many here are not in the same circumstance as I am and I’m not always going to be in this circumstance. However, there will always be someone in my circumstance whether or not it’s me. As a mother of youngsters (and my husband also feels the same) the audible canon is very beneficial to our spiritual lives.

How do you miss consecration when there are bells? How do you “miss the boat” during a sung mass, when consecration is the only time when all is quiet, and there is a hushed reverence all around?

 

[mercygate]

How do you miss consecration when there are bells? How do you “miss the boat” during a sung mass, when consecration is the only time when all is quiet, and there is a hushed reverence all around?

I’m a great fan of the TLM; no kids with me, paying attention, Latin pretty good. EVEN I GET LOST.

The fact that even a well-instructed, careful, appreciative person may need the bells to figure out where he is is an indicator that maybe an audible canon would connect the people in the pew with what is going on at the altar more directly.

Cardinal Arinze has not queried me on this subject, however.

 

[marchoi]

At this point in time, I’d say no change. If people want the Tridentine Mass, let them have it. There are certainly good aspects of both forms, I would leave the Tridentine alone and tweak the Novus Ordo Mass.

Reason: I’m a firm believer of “The Church’s preference of Mass is a liturgically correct one.” Novus Ordo Masses seem to be more vulnerable to liturgical abuse, so let’s fix that first. Then we’ll see how things transpire.

 

[latinmasslover]

For starters have it said in English and have the Priest face the people.

BTW-I started this thread becuase of the excellent insight recieved from TM fans on another thread about what changes should be made in the N.O. Mass. I thoughr N.O. Fans could similarly help them out

Admit it, you posted this question because you wanted to start a fight. The TLM will never have those changes you made as they’re specifically protestant and was practiced by them to take away the sacrificial character of the Mass, downplay the role of the Priest. As for the language, why take away that unity? And I think you meant having it said in the vernacular, as having it in english would be pointless for those who don’t speak it.

 

[DaughterSorrow]

What changes?

None! That’s why it’s called the traditional mass!

In Peace,
DS

 

[estesbob]

Admit it, you posted this question because you wanted to start a fight.
.

MOI!? I prefer "start a discussion. And why not put it just in english-non-english countires not understanding it should not be a problem-after all its “unity” we’re looking for!

 

[latinmasslover]

MOI!? I prefer "start a discussion. And why not put it just in english-non-english countires not understanding it should not be a problem-after all its “unity” we’re looking for!

Unity in the Church, to the Church. Latin is the language of the Church, it is holy, and it is dead (so to speak) as in not changing. Why dump it for a language that is constantly changing? As far as the spiritual life goes, all a Catholic would need to know is their native language and Latin…no matter what country they were in they could confess, hear Mass, and pray in actual unity and understanding. It just takes a little time and effort.

 

[estesbob]

Unity in the Church, to the Church. Latin is the language of the Church, it is holy, and it is dead (so to speak) as in not changing. Why dump it for a language that is constantly changing? As far as the spiritual life goes, all a Catholic would need to know is their native language and Latin…no matter what country they were in they could confess, hear Mass, and pray in actual unity and understanding. It just takes a little time and effort.

Why use a language people can understand? And I say this as a person who learned Latin in the seminary and although a little rusty still understand it. I firmly believe if we put the TM in the vernacular and update the readings this sacred ,traditional liturgy will soon replace the N.O. . If however ,it continues to way it is. it will never be more than a novelty Mass attended by very few.

 

[latinmasslover]

Why use a language people can understand? And I say this as a person who learned Latin in the seminary and although a little rusty still understand it. I firmly believe if we put the TM in the vernacular and update the readings this sacred ,traditional liturgy will soon replace the N.O. . If however ,it continues to way it is. it will never be more than a novelty Mass attended by very few.

Is that why TLM attendance is on the rise? As we can see since VII, the exceptions *always *become the norm. Same thing will happen, is happening, with the TLM.

 

[cspb56]

There is no such thing as the traditional latin mass. While few changes took place from Trent to Vatican II. Prior to Trent there were many variations of the mass depending on where you were. While the basic elements have always been present in the mass variations were based on regions and culture existed. Trent was the first time we had a unfied way of saying mass, one of the churches ways of dealing with the reformation. I would strongly suggest reading “A Short History of Western Liturgy” by Klauser. it’s hsort but give a great overview of the development of the mass from apostlic times to just before Vatican II.

 

[estesbob]

Is that why TLM attendance is on the rise? As we can see since VII, the exceptions *always *become the norm. Same thing will happen, is happening, with the TLM.

Of course it’s on the rise. Having went from near zero any increase would be significant. If you really think that a large number of Catholics are going to embrace a Mass in Latin you are mistaken. You are letting the perfect become the enemy of the possible.

 

[japhy]

Of course it’s on the rise. Having went from near zero any increase would be significant. If you really think that a large number of Catholics are going to embrace a Mass in Latin you are mistaken. You are letting the perfect become the enemy of the possible.

I don’t even understand that last sentence.

And why are you so against other people embracing Mass (whether the Ordinary Form or the Extraordinary Form) in Latin? It’s fine if you don’t want it, but you don’t speak for all of the Catholics in the world, let alone your parish.

 

[latinmasslover]

Of course it’s on the rise. Having went from near zero any increase would be significant. If you really think that a large number of Catholics are going to embrace a Mass in Latin you are mistaken. You are letting the perfect become the enemy of the possible.

Reading into the Tarot are we?