What changes would you make to the Extraordinary Form, if you could?

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My SSPX missal is fairly new (historically speaking) and it doesn’t seem any more confusing than my OF missal is. The structure of both books is very similar. I’m not sure what you mean by new EF missals then, as both the SSPX and FSSP missals are “new”.

To be clear, I use the SSPX one because I like the format it uses for the Mass more. Plus it has commentary in the margins.
 
Peeps said:
My only suggestion for the EF is to publish a new version of the missal so that all of us can easily find out exactly where we are in the Mass and what is being said/chanted, and what is happening during the silent portions, and most important, what WE should be doing/not doing during this Mass.
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Agree. 1) Make what the priest says audible, and 2) give us a bi-lingual script to follow.

D
 
I would recommend you get yourself a different copy of an EF missal. I possess several and none of them are printed in a script I find illegible.

If you are attending an EF Mass and finding it a challenge to follow do some preparation. It may take you some time initially but it will enable you to follow the Mass better. There are resources online that can teach you about the EF Mass, the Latin used in it, etc. There are also online ordos which will tell you what Mass is to be celebrated on a specific date. I have not provided any link because I do not know where you are. I live in the UK and we have a Latin Mass Society with many useful online resources to help people learn the EF Mass.
 
I kind of like it as it is, but I’ll play along.
  1. Allow the Ordinary and Propers to be chanted during the Low Mass if a cantor or schola is present, at least in a simpler Gregorian tone.
  2. Allow the priest to pray audibly in a Low Mass any of his parts that he would sing in a High Mass (although I’ve already seen this done).
  3. Let priests choose whether to sing or recite their parts in a High Mass. I think that some priests who are aware of not having a pleasant singing voice may be reluctant to celebrate the EF at least partially for that reason, though I have no actual evidence of that.
  4. I know this will be controversial, but give the priests an option to recite the Offertory and Canon audibly. I understand and appreciate the reasoning behind the silence, but I think that some people will profit more by actually hearing the words spoken.
  5. Allow the people to join in making all the server responses and singing the Ordinary.
That’s pretty much it. I used to think that certain parts of the EF Mass should be permitted in the vernacular, but more and more I think that the Church should focus on teaching all the faithful basic Latin in Catholic schools, sacramental preparation classes, RCIA, as well as “listen and repeat” style instruction during the Mass for those beyond school age. Every Catholic college and university should also require at least a semester of Latin for all students as a gen ed requirement.
 
Peeps said:
Secondly, much of the missal is written in a “gothic” font that is hard to read (apologies to those of you who love antique fonts!).
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Yes! I find fancy, artistic, and old-fashioned fonts very difficult to read. My dyslexic daughter finds them impossible. Reading is hard enough for her, without having to decipher a fancy font.
 
I like the simple form of the Latin Mass.

The biggest problem I see is the congregation rattling off prayers too quickly. The words are important.

“Hallowed be thy name” is a BIG idea, for example, not just a stepping stone to the next phrase, until we run out of breath.

I would skip the general intercessions. I don’t think they have panned out to be what they were supposed to be. They’re too politically correct and often read off too quickly.

I was at Mary Queen of the Universe Church around Orlando FL. One of the general intercessions was “for more devotion to Mary.”’ Do you understand that? We’re praying to GOD for more devotion to Mary? That may satisfy somebody’s level of spirituality but I think it’s an odd intercession. I heard an identical prayer on EWTN at about the same time. I don’t understand the logic of it.
 
c1949 said:
I like the simple form of the Latin Mass. .

I was at Mary Queen of the Universe Church around Orlando FL. One of the general intercessions was “for more devotion to Mary.”’ I don’t understand the logic of it.
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I don’t understand why you have a problem in asking God for more devotion to Mary .

There’s only one road true devotion to Mary will take us along , and that’s straight to God .

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Pope Francis said that having a devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary isn’t just something that is nice or good to do, but is an obligation in the life of a Christian.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-on-new-years-day-devotion-to-mary-is-a-must-10900
 
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I’m glad you had no problems figuring it out. I do. At this point, I will not attend a Latin Mass unless I am hired to play organ. I don’t do things that I don’t understand. That means that I will not be able to pick it up after a few times, because there won’t BE a few times. I love my OF parish and the Mass that is done is reverent and liturgically-correct, and I see no reason to abandon it.

Yes, I’ve been online plenty of times to learn about the Latin Mass, and watched Latin Masses online (we don’t have cable, so no EWTN for me unless I’m in a hotel.). It didn’t help me. At one point, I found a wonderful handout online that explains everything in the Latin Mass–28 pages long! I printed it out, but found it awkward to use in the actual Mass, especially when I’m trying to pay attention to my organ music.

Just because YOU understand something doesn’t mean that others understand it. I’m sure I’m not the only Catholic who totally fails to understand the “order of service” in the Latin Mass, and would appreciate a simplified version of the Missal so that we can follow along. As I said, Evangelical Protestant converts and other converts who did not experience a “liturgical worship service” growing up should be recruited to help Catholics create a Missal that is useful and edifying for not only ex-Protestants, but Catholics who did not grow up in a traditional Latin Mass parish. We would cut through the sentiment and be willing to say straight out, “That doesn’t make sense me, let’s fix it and make this Missal usable.”
 
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I would advocate for the larger set of Scripture readings used in the Lectionary cycle, similar to what is used in the OF.
 
No grandchildren. And I have a Children’s Missal that one of my best friends gave me.

My husband and I are the only Catholics in our family.

So the Missals were handed out to Protestant converts since the 17th Century and none complained? How do you know they didn’t complain? How do you know that many people just sat and didn’t worry about understanding anything? Many people in the past were illiterate! They learned from conversation with others, which is something that no one in the Latin Mass parish seems willing to start up, even though I have asked!

I grew up with Protestants, and I knew very very few who converted to Catholicism other than for marriage, and most of those couples stopped attending church and came to the Protestant church once the wedding was done and they were back from their honeymoon. OTOH, I have known and still know HUNDREDS of ex-Catholics who converted to Evangelical Protestantism, and one of the main reasons is UNDERSTANDING and COMPREHENSION. There are tens of thousands of Catholics in the U.S. who don’t even understand the OF of the Mass–that’s one reason why Catholics like Scott Hahn sell books and offer speaking engagements that explain the Mass! HE gets what I’m saying. Perhaps I should write to him and suggest that he write a book dissecting the EF of the Mass! I think that more than anything would increase attendance at these parishes!

So all the other Protestants have understood the Missal? And I don’t? Sigh. It’s a wonder that I can figure out how to play the organ and piano, and work in a hospital in a high-tech position, isn’t it?

(name removed by moderator), I know you mean well and I appreciate your concern for me and your suggestions, but I feel kind of down because I think you’re calling me intellectually disabled.

My husband has a very high IQ and works in a high level in his company (computer). He also plays musical instruments, and does several high-tech hobbies and reads professional journals for fun. Finally, he minored in Linguistics in college and still keeps up his studies–he loves languages! And HE does NOT understand the layout of the Missal in the Latin Mass parish and can’t find his way around the EF! He won’t attend voluntarily anymore, even if I’m playing.

Folks, those of you who love the Latin Mass would do well do listen to those of us who have problems trying to figure it out rather than assuming that we’re just deficit in brain power. Listen to what we’re saying and rather than telling us to “look harder”, maybe consider making some of the changes that we would like to see (e.g., publish an “Order of Service” and pass it out to those who need it— see an old Protestant bulletin to see what than means, or look at a Broadway musical Playbill). This does not change anything about the EF of the Mass or disrupt the liturgy in any way–it just makes the EF Mass more accessible. There is no rubric against understanding.
 
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Peeps said:
So the Missals were handed out to Protestant converts since the 17th Century and none complained? How do you know they didn’t complain?
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In England, in the 17th century, the literacy rate was approximately 30% for males. Which means 70% couldn’t read a missal if they wanted to.

Not surprising they didn’t complain, they couldn’t read!!!
 
It doesn’t have to be an expensive, fancy project. Just get the priest and a few devoted members of the parish who love the Latin Mass (including those Evangelical Protestant converts) together, with some eats and drinks, and spend a few hours hammering out an “Order of Show”–a one or two page description of the Latin Mass from entering the nave to leaving the nave.

The translations are already in the Missal–what the committee needs to do is put everything in an easily-comprehensible order. They could even just write out the “program” in such a way that directs the inquirer to the correct page in the current Missal–in order, and giving cues that direct the inquirer clearly when it’s time to turn the page.

At most, your description should take two pages, and one page would be better. Just a “programme,” or “order of show” or “order of worship”. Not a whole book–leave that to Scott Hahn and CA speakers! (Or as you have posted, there are are already whole books–thanks for the referral!)

Here’s what I have in mind:

Start with a few definitions.

Nave - the place where the worshippers sit. Sanctuary = the place where the altar is located. The worshippers are not permitted to enter the sanctuary.
etc. any definitions you think are important to know to understand the EF Mass.

Then write out what is happening in the EF Mass, like so:

Upon entering the nave, do the following: (list things that the worshipper should do, such as genuflect, go to confession, etc.

Upon finding a seat, open the Missal to page ____. This is called the ______.

Next, _________ will happen, and the worshiper should do ____________. This is on page ______ of the Missal.

Next, __________ will happen, and the worshiper should do ___________ This is on page _______ of the Missal.

and so on, until the Mass is completed and the worshipers are sent forth.

No big deal–just a simple guide. Pretend you are narrating the Latin Mass to a friend of yours who is visiting. Obviously, you wouldn’t be talking him through it during the Mass, but you might whisper to him/her, and also show him/her the proper page in the Missal.

Just do that, only write it out. Easy. Cheap. And so useful for newbies and people who are visiting. Slap a few beautiful illustrations onto it if you wish, but it isn’t necessary because the church already has beautiful art work to look at, and of course, the Lord Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament!.

You don’t even have to print it out if you don’t wish to (save money). Just put it online and post the site at the entrance to the nave. I hope you WILL print out some copies for all of us who don’t have i-phones ,and for all of the people who feel that using a phone just doesn’t seem appropriate during Mass.

So–how about it?
 
This is useful. I like that it’s all in one place instead of flipping through the Missal. I would like to have the date so that I would know where to go in the Missal, but this could be posted outside in the narthex (lobby, whatever it’s called in specific church buildings).

I think that books like Lamb’s Supper (Hahn) are really nice because they explain each part of the Mass. I know that the EF Mass has a lot of the same liturgical actions as the OF Mass, but it would be good to have it all explained. I think that the book you referenced would probably be a good starting point.

Thanks so much! Enjoy France–my daughter was in Rouen for a skating competition years ago and liked it very much.
 
Actually there is nothing to change in the rite of the Extraordinary Form since it has been fixed correctly by the Church. But the Church has the authority to make modifications like what happened to the creation of the Ordinary Form, modifying some parts but retaining the substance or the essentials.

The only change that I can think of are additional prayers for newly canonized saints being added to the calendar.

Well if the Church wanted to permit English translation of the Extraordinary Form without changing the rubric, then that would be very welcome.

But the Extraordinary Form itself, I dont think it needs any change at all without the Church’s permission.
 
I really enjoy this topic but it’s been my experience that many traditionalists do not want to humor any kind of changes to the E.F. whatsoever, and that makes sense given what drove many of them to the E.F. in the first place: suspicion of change for change’s sake. I’m a lot more flexible on the idea in so far as I don’t believe the E.F. should be ossified into the form it was in 1960 (never mind that the Johannine missal is in many ways an affront to “traditionalism” if we’re to consider the Bugnini alterations during the Pio missal.)

Where I will agree with my traditionalist fellows (counterparts?) is in having a grave suspicion of change merely for change’s sake and it’s for that reason I strongly believe that if we’re to tinker with the liturgy we need a damned good reason to do so. There ought to be an identified problem in need of fixing and that can only be addressed by such proposed changes rather than, as is more often the case, a change first desired and then its accompanying problem discovered ad hoc. On top of that we really ought to consider other avenues of addressing the problem before we start messing with our inheritance.

In light of this I’m really interested in hearing your reasons for the changes you suggest. Maybe you intended this to be a more lighthearted thread about raw desires, ala “If I were Pope!”, in which case I apologize for my throwing cold water on it all. 😛 I’m going to respond to certain points of yours in subsequent posts.
 
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I want to come barging out of the barn right away with the elephant in the room (I do so love mixed metaphors!): LANGUAGE.

The strength with which some traditionalists cleave to Latin I find to be perplexing. I’ve yet to hear an argument in favor of retaining Latin exclusively that’s stronger than “that’s just how it’s been done, and it’s tradition.” I also just said in my last post just a couple minutes ago that I firmly believe we shouldn’t be tinkering with tradition without a good reason. I think the inability/hindrance/difficulty/what have you, of the faithful to understand what is being said at Mass is in fact a very good reason to alter the tradition of having Mass said strictly in Latin. At the very least the propers of the Mass, all of which are said aloud (except for the Secret and, depending on the congregation, the Communion) and are clearly meant to be heard, and presumably understood by, the faithful.

There are good arguments to be made about keeping the ordinary in Latin, and I do lean toward that. I can’t speak for everyone but I’ve already assisted at enough E.F. Masses that I know the ordinary by heart. I know what’s being said. I could even give you a rough English translation if put on the spot. It might not be identical to my Baronius Press hand missal, but it would be a decent dynamic equivalent. This is also the case already with the O.F.! How many of you O.F. attending Catholics are avid travelers? Assisted at Mass in a country whose language you do not speak? Were you ever confused about what part of the ordinary was being said? For a few months I was going to daily (O.F.) Mass in Chinese. I can’t even tell you whether it was Mandarin or Cantonese because I have no flippin clue. I understood not a single word of those Masses, yet, I understood those Masses! I knew when the Kyrie was being said. I knew when the “Offertory” was being said, I knew when it was time for the Our Father. We have all those other sensory cues in place that are indeed universal in a universal church that I just can’t accept a Roman Catholic telling me that they “don’t understand!” what “Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus” means.
 
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