What church would Jesus recognize?

  • Thread starter Thread starter kayla
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
kaycee:
hmmmm.

Augustine writes “Before the coming of Christ, the flesh and blood of this sacrifice were foreshadowed in the animals slain; in the passion of Christ the types were fulfilled by the true sacrifice; after the ascension of Christ, this sacrifice is commemorated in the sacrament (Augustine, Contra Faustus, XX)

Augustine’s interprets John 6
“He that comes unto Me: this is the same as when He says, And he that believes on Me: and what He meant by, shall never hunger, the same we are to understand by, shall never thirst. By both is **signified ** that eternal fulness, where is no lack.”
I think I see your problem, kaycee. It is important to define some terms. In this case you are equating “commemoration” and “signified” with being symbolic. In theological language this isn’t the case. Commemoration is more than a mere calling to mind; it is an a re-entering into the event. We get a sense of this when we note how Jews celebrate the Passover. The liturgy of it is such that the participants partake in a manner that makes them not just call it to mind, but re-enact it as if the original event were happening to them here and now.

Similarly, when we speak of signification, a theological sign is one that points to a greater reality than what we see. For example, for those that believe in baptismal regeneration, the **sign ** of dying to your old life is going under the water, while at the same time really effecting what it signifies, that is, going from death to being born again into life.

As to Augustines belief in the Real Presence, here’s an article that should be helpful:
cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=122
 
interesting article
cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=122

By quoting more of the passage we get a better feel for its meaning. 😉

“That bread, which you can see on the altar, sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That cup, or rather what the cup contains, sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ. It was by means of these things that the Lord Christ wished to present us with his body and blood, which he shed for our sake for the forgiveness of sins. If you receive them well, you are yourselves what you receive. You see, the apostle says, We, being many, are one loaf, one body (1 Cor. 10.17). That’s how he explained the sacrament of the Lord’s Table; one loaf, one body, is what we all are, many though we be"(Augustine, Sermons, 227).

First, looking at the context, it is clear that Augustine is using figurative language. Just as he asserts that the bread is the body of Christ, he is equally emphatic that Christians are one loaf, one body. Clearly, he means that the one Eucharistic loaf represents the unity among believers. Similarly, “by means of these things” - the bread and the cup - the Lord presents his people with his body and blood. The Eucharistic elements are the figure or sign of Christ, as Augustine asserts explicitly elsewhere in his writings:
  • The Lord did not hesitate to say: “This is My Body”, when He wanted to give a sign of His body” (Augustine, Against Adimant).
  • He [Christ] committed and delivered to His disciples the figure of His Body and Blood"(Augustine, on Psalm3).
  • [The sacraments] bear the names of the realities which they resemble. As, **therefore, in a certain manner ** the sacrament of Christ’s body is Christ’s body, and the sacrament of Christ’s blood is Christ’s blood” (Augustine, Letter 98, From Augustine to Boniface).
(Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, III).
"If the sentence is one of command, either forbidding a crime or vice, or enjoining an act of prudence or benevolence, it is not figurative. If, however, it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,” says Christ, “and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.” This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure, enjoining that we should have a share in the sufferings of our Lord, and that we should retain a sweet and profitable memory of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us (Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, III).
 
40.png
steve99:
In the flesh? I don’t think so, that would be Yukky. He is really present in the Eucharist, not physically present.
Yes in the flesh. Just under the appearance of bread and wine. It IS his flesh, really AND substantially (that’s why it’s called transubstantiation). It IS Him in every way, the appearance is just different.
 
Cardinal Thomas Spidlik writes in his prologue for Drinking From the Hidden Fountain about the Catholic Church

Rosmini, Dostoevsky and Kirkegaard have given lively descriptions of the thousand traps that the Church has had to avoid in order to survive to our day. Her clothes today are a little tattered, her face, to use biblical image, is blackened and wrinkled. But she is still today possessed by Christ and by the Spirit. Still today, despite everything, she is guarding the truth.

More than that, she has an immense wealth handed down of prayer, meditation, contemplation, holiness. Millions of people have prayed, meditated, contemplated and reached holiness.
 
kaycee - I think you’re still failing to grasp what Augustine --and historically, most Christians – means when he talks about signs, symbols, figures, types, etc. For example, when Augustine says the Church is one loaf, one body, he is not speaking metaphorically, but is expressing the profound truth that the Church is, in a very real way (though not exactly the same sense and fullness of the Eucharist) the Body of Christ. For example the Catechism of the Catholic Church points out:
**1374 ** The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as “the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend.” In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist “the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained.” “This presence is called ‘real’ - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present.”
Most Protestants criticize Augustine for “overspiritualizing” Scripture. I’m afraid you are on the other pole by perhaps taking him too literally by imprecisely understanding the terms he is employing. 🙂
 
40.png
Shiann:
In the Catholic Faith he IS physically present, along with divinely present, and mindly present.
I would contend that he is not physically present, since physicality is to do with accidents (that what physics is about). That is why we talk about the Real Prescence.
Maybe we are playing with words here.
 
40.png
steve99:
I would contend that he is not physically present, since physicality is to do with accidents (that what physics is about). That is why we talk about the Real Prescence.
Maybe we are playing with words here.
Words and their meaning are very important. It gets difficult because many words have more than one meaning or definition. The Church has always taught the Real Presence. Aquinas in his Summa taught that it was a substantial presence, where substance is the reality and the appearance is what he termed as accidents(physical properties as science defines them) so we speak of a substantial presence and not a physical one. A person needs some grasp of Metaphysics as opposed to Physics to come to an understanding of what this means. If Christ were physically present we would see, smell, and taste flesh and blood when receiving the Eucharist which obviously we do not. Also we seem to have managed to totally Hi Jack this thread.
 
40.png
steve99:
Maybe we are playing with words here.
I’m thinking so. But for any lurkers here, or for anyone who does not clearly understand the distinction- this can be VERY confusing. And words must mean exactly the same thing for everyone when discussing this topic.

It remains that Jesus in mind, body and in divinity is as present as you and I at any Mass that we attend. That said, He would recognize His Church immediately.
 
40.png
Shiann:
It remains that Jesus in mind, body and in divinity is as present as you and I at any Mass that we attend. That said, He would recognize His Church immediately.
It would appear then that Augustine only believed in at best Consubstantiation.
 
40.png
kaycee:
It would appear then that Augustine only believed in at best Consubstantiation.
Here are some quotes from St. Augustine on the Eucharist:

chnetwork.org/journals/eucharist/eucharist_7.htm

He took flesh from the flesh of Mary. . . and gave us the same flesh to be eaten unto salvation . . . we do sin by not adoring.* {Explanations of the Psalms, 98, 9; on p.20}Not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, becomes Christ’s body. {Ibid., 234, 2; on p.31} -* ** Notice he does not say that the bread “contains Christ’s body” . He says the bread “becomes Christ’s body.” I don’t see the argument for consubstantiation here.**

What you see is the bread and the chalice . . . But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the Body of Christ and the chalice the Blood of Christ.* {Ibid., 272; on p.32} -* Again he does not say that the bread “contains” the “Body of Christ” but that it is the Body of Christ.

Not only is no one forbidden to take as food the Blood of this Sacrifice, rather, all who wish to possess life are exhorted to drink thereof.* {Questions of the Hepateuch, 3, 57; on p.134}*

The Sacrifice of our times is the Body and Blood of the Priest Himself . . . Recognize then in the Bread what hung upon the tree; in the chalice what flowed from His side.* {Sermo iii. 1-2; on p.62}*

The Blood they had previously shed they afterwards drank.* {Mai 26, 2; 86, 3; on p.64}*

Eat Christ, then; though eaten He yet lives, for when slain He rose from the dead. Nor do we divide Him into parts when we eat Him: though indeed this is done in the Sacrament, as the faithful well know when they eat the Flesh of Christ, for each receives his part, hence are those parts called graces. Yet though thus eaten in parts He remains whole and entire; eaten in parts in the Sacrament, He remains whole and entire in Heaven. {Mai 129, 1; cf. Sermon 131; on p.65} - Quite clear that he believes in the Real Presence here not just symbolism.**

Out of hatred of Christ the crowd there shed Cyprian’s blood, but today a reverential multitude gathers to drink the Blood of Christ . . . this altar . . . whereon a Sacrifice is offered to God . . .* {Sermo 310, 2; cf. City of God, 8, 27, 1; on p.65}*

He took into His hands what the faithful understand; He in some sort bore Himself when He said: This is My Body.* {Enarr. 1, 10 on Ps. 33; on p.65}*

The very first heresy was formulated when men said: “this saying is hard and who can bear it [Jn 6:60]?”* {Enarr. 1, 23 on Ps. 54; on p.66} -* The heresy was the denial that the bread is Christ’s body.

Thou art the Priest, Thou the Victim, Thou the Offerer, Thou the Offering.* {Enarr. 1, 6 on Ps. 44; on p.66}*
 
40.png
steve99:
In the flesh? I don’t think so, that would be Yukky. He is really present in the Eucharist, not physically present.

If He came “in the body” this would mean He was not glorified in Heaven. He will not come in “in the body” until the Judgement; His Eucharistic Presence, is a Presence in the manner of a Sacrament: which is why the Eucharistic Presence does not involve cannibalism 🙂

I wonder whether this thread will be closed for being OT ? 🙂 ##
 
(Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, III).
"If the sentence is one of command, either forbidding a crime or vice, or enjoining an act of prudence or benevolence, it is not figurative. If, however, it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,” says Christ, “and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.” This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure, enjoining that we should have a **share in the sufferings ** of our Lord, and that we should retain a **sweet and profitable memory ** of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us (Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, III).

Peace <><
 
kaycee said:
(Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, III).
"If the sentence is one of command, either forbidding a crime or vice, or enjoining an act of prudence or benevolence, it is not figurative. If, however, it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,” says Christ, “and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.” This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure, enjoining that we should have a **share in the sufferings ** of our Lord, and that we should retain a **sweet and profitable memory ** of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us (Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, III).

Peace <><

This has been explained here already (Posts 21 and 25) so I’m assuming you are happy with interpretations that reinforce your own personal predjudices in this regard. You are, of course, welcome to remain in error. :cool:
 
40.png
Fidelis:
This has been explained here already (Posts 21 and 25) so I’m assuming you are happy with interpretations that reinforce your own personal predjudices in this regard. You are, of course, welcome to remain in error. :cool:
:yup:
 
40.png
Fidelis:
when Augustine says the Church is one loaf, one body, he is not speaking metaphorically,
😉 Not trying to be a smart alec, just trying to find out what you actually meant. Did you mean to say this or was it a typing error?

A definition of metaphor is “A figure of speech in which one thing is described as if it were another, as in “Life is just a bowl of cherries.””

You dont believe Augustine really says we are literal loafs? :eek:
 
kaycee said:
😉 Not trying to be a smart alec, just trying to find out what you actually meant. Did you mean to say this or was it a typing error?

A definition of metaphor is “A figure of speech in which one thing is described as if it were another, as in “Life is just a bowl of cherries.””

You dont believe Augustine really says we are literal loafs? :eek:

We are one loaf of BREAD and one BODY as a Church.
 
kaycee said:
😉 Not trying to be a smart alec, just trying to find out what you actually meant. Did you mean to say this or was it a typing error?

A definition of metaphor is “A figure of speech in which one thing is described as if it were another, as in “Life is just a bowl of cherries.””

You dont believe Augustine really says we are literal loafs? :eek:

I believe it in the same manner that I believe Jesus when he told us “I am the vine and you are the branches.” It isn’t just a word picture or helpful illustration. Both are using a turn of phrase to present a profound and literal truth.
 
Augustine isn’t the only person who wrote about the Eucharist and the Real Presence. Look at the writings of Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Iranaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, …Theodore of Mopsuestia, etc… Just follow this link to read the quotes from all these early Christians and more:

catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp

Can we argue against all of these people, many of which were taught directly by the Apostles? (No.)
 
Just remember that St. Augustine was never infallible and even more important said straight out that he would believe nothing unless the Catholic Church taught him to. So regardless of how brilliant he is in most cases, he knew what the Church teaches and he believed what we do today. Trying to use his writings as a platform against the Catholic Church is silly since his actions refute every such attempt.
Pax tecum,
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top