What Constitutes "Full Knowledge" For a Mortal Sin

[Thoma25]

First off, thanks for the measured and courteous response. Now for mine, which I hope is similarly civil:

So Christianity is true because it is the only religion that featured a preacher who at the very least claimed that he was God? This seems to be a very flimsy basis for belief. It’s akin to me believing someone who tells an outlandish lie because I believe that a liar wouldn’t be so audacious. Such an idea requires me to accept at face value that Jesus was God. By the same token, the Ramayana, which features Rama assuming human form, is true as well.

There’s no doubt that there have been many people who claimed to be prophets in the past, some even claiming to be God himself. However, Christ’s claims for divinity were attested by his fulfillment of the Prophets, his many signs and miracles, and his Resurrection and Ascension, by his own power, into heaven. The greatest proof of his authenticity, however, is this simple fact: his Church has remained active and surviving in a world hostile to both it and its message for 2,000 years. Christianity has been a deciding factor in the world since the Roman empire. The Caesars vied with the Popes for authority and power; who has survived the test of time? Nothing has been nor will be able to destroy it, not even corruption within it’s own ranks; for instance, Arian Bishops entering into Council and declared Arianism to be heretical. Who can say that about any human institution in the world today?

But this line of thought requires me to believe that simply being founded by the Apostles is proof of communion with God. Or, beyond that, that being “One Holy Catholic Apostolic” is a connection to the divine. I still don’t see anything that implies that Christianity is truly “the” religion. Your statements in fact seem to require that a person come to the table already believing that Christianity is “the” religion.

This line of thought requires you to acknowledge that the Catholic Church has Apostolic succession, and that the Apostles were appointed by Christ specifically for this mission. If Christ is God, then certainly their communion with him is communion with the Divine. If you don’t believe he is God, then show me a single human who has died, arisen from the dead by their own power, and ascended into heaven. If you don’t believe in the Resurrection, then explain the change in the Apostles: formerly, they were cowards who denied Christ, hid during his imprisonment and crucifixion, then huddled together afterward for fear of the authorities. However, they reported numerous appearances of the risen Christ and, after Pentecost, were openly teaching and enduring all manner of torture, including martyrdom. Christ appeared after his Resurrection for 40 days, being witnessed by thousands of disciples. These same people spread Christ’s Church all over the known world; the Apostles’ successors, the Bishops, as well as the laity also underwent all manner of persecution, slavery, torture, and martyrdom. Tell me, what would spark such a radical change in men’s natural constitutions in such a short amount of time? What could enable the average person to endure such hardships with resignation, and even joy? Why would a peasant movement come to dominate not only the aristocratic Roman society, but also the entire world, unless Christ’s promises were true?

But you’re right on one point: you’re never going to be absolutely certain that the Resurrection did occur. You can doubt it, just like you can doubt about any facet of reality, up to and including your own existence. But one of the fruits the Holy Spirit imparted to those who earnestly pray for it is faith, not as “blind faith,” but as a supernatural virtue which illumines our natural reason and guides us into truth. It is imparted by Baptism, and strengthened by Confirmation. This is the very nature of what we’re dealing with: supernatural Revelation, which our natural reason alone can never penetrate. When faith and reason work together, however, there is absolute certainty.

So, as I suggested earlier, why not take these concerns, present them to the Blessed Mother, and spend 15 minutes each night saying the Rosary? This is what the Rosary was meant for to begin with: to grant innumerable graces to a world gripped by doubt, falsehood, and even heresy. It is a unique, singular devotion specially suited for those who have your kinds of questions and concerns, and it places you under special protection of the Blessed Virgin. If you would like, you can PM me and I can even make sure you have all the resources, including Rosary beads. Even if you don’t believe in it, what is there to lose?

 

[aperture]

Again, civility much appreciated.

He did not merely say he was God - he demonstrated miraculous powers, including raising people from the dead in the middle of their own funerals (ie: they were known by the general public to be dead) - okay, so maybe he was just a really, really good doctor? Well, then he raised himself from the dead; not easy to do, if you are not God.

It’s not just him saying so - it’s all of the witnesses agreeing together that it was so (even though they disagree on the details) - even Josephus the historian, who never became a Christian, admitted that there was no explanation for the miracles that Jesus did, and no rational explanation for his apparent rising from the dead - for many days after he had been crucified, says Josephus, this man wandered around in the city of Jerusalem preaching to his followers, and even when we tried to stone them to death and drive them out of the city, they continued to proclaim his teachings, and to say that he had risen from the dead.

All of the witnesses? I’m not sure of this. You seem to be defining witnesses as the apostles, etc., who are hardly objective observers. Re: Josephus - as far as I know, he didn’t so much wonder at Jesus’ miracles as record that Jesus’ followers claim that Jesus performed miracles and raised from the dead. Again, as far as I know, Josephus seems to respect Jesus, but only records that his followers did certain things and claimed certain things. I can’t actually find anything where Josephus says that Jesus was resurrected. In fact, if Josephus had believed Jesus to have done these things, wouldn’t he himself have become Christian?

I’m not familiar with him - what are the dates of his birth and death, and what miracles did he perform? Who were his followers?

TBH I’m not familiar with Rama either, since I’m not Hindu. I mostly used it as a way to show that Christianity does not have a monopoly on messiahs who have claimed godhood.

Hinduism is a catch-all for a wide variety of different pagan religions, each with its own god.

This doesn’t really say anything, though. Hinduism has many gods. And —?

Even atheists abstain from sexual activity, for the sake of their clarity of mind and for the mental health benefits.

This is an entirely different can of worms. Some atheists abstain; I believe that more do not. If we are touting clarity of mind and mental health benefits as a benefit of abstinence, well…that’s not very sound.

 

[aperture]

There’s no doubt that there have been many people who claimed to be prophets in the past, some even claiming to be God himself. However, Christ’s claims for divinity were attested by his fulfillment of the Prophets, his many signs and miracles, and his Resurrection and Ascension, by his own power, into heaven. The greatest proof of his authenticity, however, is this simple fact: his Church has remained active and surviving in a world hostile to both it and its message for 2,000 years. Christianity has been a deciding factor in the world since the Roman empire. The Caesars vied with the Popes for authority and power; who has survived the test of time? Nothing has been nor will be able to destroy it, not even corruption within it’s own ranks; for instance, Arian Bishops entering into Council and declared Arianism to be heretical. Who can say that about any human institution in the world today?

The part of this that most interests me is the “fulfillment of the Prophets.” I’m sure there’s a good website out there covering this; could you give me a link?

The next argument is more dubious, for me. That an institution survives does not at all mean that it is good or true. Evil institutions are capable of surviving. The same goes for power. Acquiring it and keeping it doesn’t necessarily mean you have a special communion with God.

This line of thought requires you to acknowledge that the Catholic Church has Apostolic succession, and that the Apostles were appointed by Christ specifically for this mission. If Christ is God, then certainly their communion with him is communion with the Divine. If you don’t believe he is God, then show me a single human who has died, arisen from the dead by their own power, and ascended into heaven. If you don’t believe in the Resurrection, then explain the change in the Apostles: formerly, they were cowards who denied Christ, hid during his imprisonment and crucifixion, then huddled together afterward for fear of the authorities. However, they reported numerous appearances of the risen Christ and, after Pentecost, were openly teaching and enduring all manner of torture, including martyrdom. Christ appeared after his Resurrection for 40 days, being witnessed by thousands of disciples. These same people spread Christ’s Church all over the known world; the Apostles’ successors, the Bishops, as well as the laity also underwent all manner of persecution, slavery, torture, and martyrdom. Tell me, what would spark such a radical change in men’s natural constitutions in such a short amount of time? What could enable the average person to endure such hardships with resignation, and even joy? Why would a peasant movement come to dominate not only the aristocratic Roman society, but also the entire world, unless Christ’s promises were true?

But you’re right on one point: you’re never going to be absolutely certain that the Resurrection did occur. You can doubt it, just like you can doubt about any facet of reality, up to and including your own existence. But one of the fruits the Holy Spirit imparted to those who earnestly pray for it is faith, not as “blind faith,” but as a supernatural virtue which illumines our natural reason and guides us into truth. It is imparted by Baptism, and strengthened by Confirmation. This is the very nature of what we’re dealing with: supernatural Revelation, which our natural reason alone can never penetrate. When faith and reason work together, however, there is absolute certainty.

That the apostles were willing to die for Christianity does not necessarily mean that Christianity is true. Most all of the world’s religions have martyrs, and many cults [Jonestown, for example] do as well. According to the Catholic Church, all of those are anywhere from slightly mistaken to totally wrong. And yet people have sacrificed for them as well. People are capable of things that look strange and illogical and miraculous. And yes, I am starting to doubt the veracity of the Resurrection, and yes, it would be hard to prove it without faith.

But there’s another problem here: even if I believe that the Resurrection is true, and that God now speaks through the Church, this implies that the apostles had an easier time of it in terms of faith. While they were persecuted much more, they had something we don’t: proof. They lived with this man, they saw him die, and if the Resurrection is true, they then saw him alive again. Compare that to today, when the average Catholic is expected to believe based on a hierarchical institution containing some members who have committed grievous sin (the child molestation scandals.) One of these requires a much higher suspension of disbelief.

So, as I suggested earlier, why not take these concerns, present them to the Blessed Mother, and spend 15 minutes each night saying the Rosary? This is what the Rosary was meant for to begin with: to grant innumerable graces to a world gripped by doubt, falsehood, and even heresy. It is a unique, singular devotion specially suited for those who have your kinds of questions and concerns, and it places you under special protection of the Blessed Virgin. If you would like, you can PM me and I can even make sure you have all the resources, including Rosary beads. Even if you don’t believe in it, what is there to lose?

I might try this, even now (and I’m pretty sure I have a rosary somewhere, but thanks for the offer.) What do I have to lose? Nothing, really, but what I’m afraid of is I’ll pray the rosary tomorrow and feel nothing. And then the next day. And then a week. And then a month. And then when I ask people what is wrong, they will simply tell me to keep praying. Well, wouldn’t it be only natural that I’ll be able to fool myself into feeling that God is with me, if I keep straining to have it be so? Ack

 

[Thoma25]

I might try this, even now (and I’m pretty sure I have a rosary somewhere, but thanks for the offer.) What do I have to lose? Nothing, really, but what I’m afraid of is I’ll pray the rosary tomorrow and feel nothing. And then the next day. And then a week. And then a month. And then when I ask people what is wrong, they will simply tell me to keep praying. Well, wouldn’t it be only natural that I’ll be able to fool myself into feeling that God is with me, if I keep straining to have it be so? Ack

The graces we receive aren’t always apparent to us, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t active on a spiritual level. Even if we can’t sense it immediately, we can see it working within us and others over the long term. As Jesus taught, the kingdom of heaven is like the smallest of all seeds which, once planted, grows so immensely that the birds of the air rest in it. This isn’t just a random saying to make things easier for us; it is first-hand experience for myself and many others.

I think this is where you’re going off track: you don’t always have to feel God’s presence to know he’s there. This is especially true if we have separated ourselves from him by our own actions. When Christ was left behind in the Temple, the Blessed Virgin and Joseph searched for him for days; they were filled with anxiety and great sorrow. They were in despair. When they finally found him, he was where they left him: in the Temple. Christ asked, “Why were you looking for me? Didn’t you know that I was in my Father’s house?” When we look up and find ourselves separated from God, it isn’t God that has moved away from us; it was us that moved away from God. But, if you give up searching for him, you’ll never find him; if you continue searching, you certainly will.

If you’ve given in to despair and doubt knowingly and willingly, that is a mortal sin. That means that you’ve extinguished the Sanctifying Grace in your soul which enables you to maintain the supernatural virtues of faith and hope. What you should do is what we all do when we encounter difficulties: go to your local priest, tell him your concerns, and schedule a general confession. Receive absolution, go to Mass, pray and persevere. You might not “feel” anything at first, but grace will be active in your soul, and you will notice the effects in time. You may even receive spiritual consolation in the short term, though this is not the ultimate aim. Many devout people, including Saints, have had the difficulties you’re currently having. Everyone has; that doesn’t mean God isn’t with you. It simply means you’re human. Without conflict, there is no Crown. Persevere despite wavering faith or doubts, and it’ll be made clear to you not through “blind faith” or being gullible, but by the supernatural virtue of faith which many experience daily.

If you’re unable to do this at the present, then at least persevere with your daily Rosary. You might not have an earth-shattering epiphany wherein the Blessed Virgin appears to you at once, but it will help dispose your soul to Truth and will aid you against doubt and uncertainty. It is the powerful weapon which overcomes temptation, which is precisely what you’re experiencing whether you realize it or not.

Good luck!

 

[jmcrae]

Again, civility much appreciated.

All of the witnesses? I’m not sure of this. You seem to be defining witnesses as the apostles, etc., who are hardly objective observers. Re: Josephus - as far as I know, he didn’t so much wonder at Jesus’ miracles as record that Jesus’ followers claim that Jesus performed miracles and raised from the dead. Again, as far as I know, Josephus seems to respect Jesus, but only records that his followers did certain things and claimed certain things. I can’t actually find anything where Josephus says that Jesus was resurrected. In fact, if Josephus had believed Jesus to have done these things, wouldn’t he himself have become Christian?

Quite a bind you’ve put me in - first of all, my Christian witnesses don’t count because they believed the testimony they heard, and believed what they saw and experienced personally, and for some reason this causes them to be non-objective observers - but my one witness who wasn’t Christian also doesn’t count, because he wasn’t sufficiently convinced by the testimony of others, to become a Christian.

TBH I’m not familiar with Rama either, since I’m not Hindu. I mostly used it as a way to show that Christianity does not have a monopoly on messiahs who have claimed godhood.

It would be helpful if we knew who his followers were, and on what testimony they believe in him. If it’s exactly equivalent to the believers in Christ, then it would be fair to compare the two, but if his claim to god-hood is unsupported by witness testimony, then we can safely say that his case is nothing like Christ’s case.

Give me something to go on.

This doesn’t really say anything, though. Hinduism has many gods. And —?

Hinduism is several different religions, each with its own god or gods. It’s a catch-all term, like “Monotheism” (all of the religions that each have only one god) or “Pantheism” (all of the religions that worship nature gods).

This is an entirely different can of worms. Some atheists abstain; I believe that more do not. If we are touting clarity of mind and mental health benefits as a benefit of abstinence, well…that’s not very sound.

On what basis is it not sound? Abstinence and good mental and physical health have been linked for millenia - long before Christianity or even Judaism came along.

 

[aperture]

The graces we receive aren’t always apparent to us, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t active on a spiritual level. Even if we can’t sense it immediately, we can see it working within us and others over the long term. As Jesus taught, the kingdom of heaven is like the smallest of all seeds which, once planted, grows so immensely that the birds of the air rest in it. [truncated to fit char limit]

I think this is where you’re going off track: you don’t always have to feel God’s presence to know he’s there. This is especially true if we have separated ourselves from him by our own actions. When Christ was left behind in the Temple, the Blessed Virgin and Joseph searched for him for days; they were filled with anxiety and great sorrow. They were in despair. When they finally found him, he was where they left him: in the Temple. Christ asked, “Why were you looking for me? Didn’t you know that I was in my Father’s house?” When we look up and find ourselves separated from God, it isn’t God that has moved away from us; it was us that moved away from God. But, if you give up searching for him, you’ll never find him; if you continue searching, you certainly will.

If you’ve given in to despair and doubt knowingly and willingly, that is a mortal sin. That means that you’ve extinguished the Sanctifying Grace in your soul which enables you to maintain the supernatural virtues of faith and hope. What you should do is what we all do when we encounter difficulties: go to your local priest, tell him your concerns, and schedule a general confession. Receive absolution, go to Mass, pray and persevere. You might not “feel” anything at first, but grace will be active in your soul, and you will notice the effects in time. You may even receive spiritual consolation in the short term, though this is not the ultimate aim. Many devout people, including Saints, have had the difficulties you’re currently having. Everyone has; that doesn’t mean God isn’t with you. It simply means you’re human. Without conflict, there is no Crown. Persevere despite wavering faith or doubts, and it’ll be made clear to you not through “blind faith” or being gullible, but by the supernatural virtue of faith which many experience daily.

If you’re unable to do this at the present, then at least persevere with your daily Rosary. You might not have an earth-shattering epiphany wherein the Blessed Virgin appears to you at once, but it will help dispose your soul to Truth and will aid you against doubt and uncertainty. It is the powerful weapon which overcomes temptation, which is precisely what you’re experiencing whether you realize it or not.

Good luck!

Well, let me put it this way. The way I see this, you are saying that if I persevere in trying to believe and nothing happens, I should keep trying until it does. It is my fault that I feel no closer to God. I must keep praying and attending Church until I do. Isn’t this exactly the sort of situation that would encourage me to fool myself into thinking I’d been touched by God, since there’s really no other way to go? It seems like a proposal that’s set up so that it can be fulfilled by my own self-delusion, but can’t be ended on any other terms.

[Did that sound a little combative? Yes, but if I’m choosing something on which to base my whole existence on, I want as little doubt as possible involved.]

Quite a bind you’ve put me in - first of all, my Christian witnesses don’t count because they believed the testimony they heard, and believed what they saw and experienced personally, and for some reason this causes them to be non-objective observers - but my one witness who wasn’t Christian also doesn’t count, because he wasn’t sufficiently convinced by the testimony of others, to become a Christian.

Sorry, I must not have explained correctly. From my perspective, I posit that Josephus did not believe the Christian witnesses. If he had believed in the miracles that they put forth, he would have followed them (which he did not.) I’m not saying that Josephus was wrong, but that he merely chronicled what the apostles said, as in he himself did not believe them. Therefore, he cannot be used as evidence of the truth of the Resurrection.

It would be helpful if we knew who his followers were, and on what testimony they believe in him. If it’s exactly equivalent to the believers in Christ, then it would be fair to compare the two, but if his claim to god-hood is unsupported by witness testimony, then we can safely say that his case is nothing like Christ’s case.

Give me something to go on.

As far as I know, no detailed records exist, since we’re talking ~300-500 BC here. But the story is attributed to a poet named Valmiki, who it is claimed witnessed the events contained. The Ramayana does contain some “miracles” that Rama performed (battled a demoness, transformed a woman who had been turned to stone back to flesh). The witness, no doubt, is of debatable veracity. But my whole point is that the apostles can be seen in the same light.

Hinduism is several different religions, each with its own god or gods. It’s a catch-all term, like “Monotheism” (all of the religions that each have only one god) or “Pantheism” (all of the religions that worship nature gods).

I’m going to have to disagree on this one. As I understand it, Hinduism’s various gods are just various iterations/forms of its trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva. Also, Hinduism isn’t just a “catch-all” term; it’s a very real philosophy with certain consistent principles across its practitioners. It’s certainly not as dissimilar as “monotheism”'s religions. In fact, I’d argue that it’s more akin to Christianity; many differences across lines of geography and culture and sect, but maintaining certain core truths.

 

[Daedelus76]

OK, you are looking at it from a viewpoint of “what do I get out of it?” instead of in terms of what your duties are, what is virtuous behavior. Personal autonomy is the issue here also. Maybe not think just about sin as a checklist of things you do or don’t do, and think about your basic attitudes behind behavior? Is it self-directed or other directed?

Masturbation is one of those areas I don’t think should really make you be non-catholic over. Truth be told, many religions and philosophies consider it sinful or unvirtuous. So it’s not unique to Catholicism. Rabbinic Judaism considers it a sin. Immanuel Kant and many other philosophers have considered it an evil as well. I used to be a Buddhist at one time and in Buddhism masturbation is considered bad because its self-pleasuring that benefits nobody else (needless to say I was not the greatest Buddhist, at least I got rid of pornography and fantasy. It wasn’t until I reverted to my childhood faith of Christianity, to go to church regularly, twice a week, that I started to get control over this and realize what a misguided thing it can be. But I’ve had a few rough patches in the last two years, a period of alienation and being sifted like wheat).

I am currently a guest at an Orthodox church every sunday and going to attend an inquirers course. Before this I was exploring Continuing Anglicanism and Episcopalianism, and it’s still an option if I decide I cannot be Orthodox (I’ll probably go for the conservative Episcopalians in that case). My point is I think you are looking at this from a rigorist perspective (purely Scholastic, “what do I have to do to avoid Hell”), being “scrupulous” about this perhaps, and there’s other ways to see this… You are assuming God’s holding people over hell like a spider just waiting for people to slip up? I don’t believe in mortal/venial sins and all that stuff (it is not a teaching of the Orthodox faith, or Anglicanism), but I think it’s more like the more sins we do, the more caught up in the passions, the less grace there is in our lives. Eventually, we just become dead inside, we are no longer friends with God or other people, we become inwardly focused and living purely for ourselves. That is Hell. Not God “sending” people anywhere. We are all sinners and will be until will die, God saves sinners. Don’t worry about other people, worry about your own soul, focus on glorifying God in your own life (being the light and salt of the earth), and you will be on the right track.

Which opens up a whole other can of worms (namely, why a person’s soul apparently “sets” when they die, but lets not get into that here.)

I’m not sure peoples souls “set” after death, but perhaps this is a teaching of the Roman Catholic church (?). Orthodox and Anglicans pray for the dead, and don’t believe in purgatory or presume where people go after they die if there are doubts about their souls status. The Orthodox Divine Liturgy certainly implies that sins can be forgiven after death.

 

[Daedelus76]

So Christianity is true because it is the only religion that featured a preacher who at the very least claimed that he was God? T… Such an idea requires me to accept at face value that Jesus was God.

Crack open some theology, find out what is meant by Jesus being God and man, what the Hypostatic Union is, etc. I guess a certain amountof faith is required, but it basicly means that in Jesus Christ, we see humanity lifted up to the divine, the compassion of Israel’s God revealed in the form of an itinerant rabbi who heals the sick, loves sinners and outcasts, proclaims a new order (the Kingdom of God) and a new people (the Church), and ultimate triumphs over the evils of the world. I think seeing that requires love, it is something known in the heart more than the intellect. Ultimately, “Jesus Christ is the end of religion” (that’s an Orthodox saying, it basicly means it’s about a “personal relationship” sort of like what evangelical Protestants say). Jesus Christ has to be at the center of your faith, if you don’t love him, you won’t get it.

I have prayed - not the rosary, however - for months. I feel no closer

Then maybe you need spiritual excercises or direction, there’s probably something whinin your own life that is not right. I find a huge barrier is when I make an idol of God, usually out of my own fears and insecurities. I project the ugliest things in myself onto God. Another thing that helps is searching out people that are in more need than myself, then I realize my own spiritual poverty and hard-heartedness.

 

[revert_jen]

I’m going to have to disagree on this one. As I understand it, Hinduism’s various gods are just various iterations/forms of its trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva. Also, Hinduism isn’t just a “catch-all” term; it’s a very real philosophy with certain consistent principles across its practitioners. It’s certainly not as dissimilar as “monotheism”'s religions. In fact, I’d argue that it’s more akin to Christianity; many differences across lines of geography and culture and sect, but maintaining certain core truths.

My (albeit limited, mostly from chatting with Hindu co-workers) understanding of Hinduism is that it is concerned primarily with correctness of action (orthopraxy) rather than correctness of belief (orthodoxy). In some ways, it is hard to think of a religion that is less like Christianity.

If you are “starting from scratch” as it were, from the position that Christianity has to prove itself against every other belief system out there, this is probably not the best way to go about it. It might be better to read a couple of books rather than engage in what would be a much less systematic discussion here. Then, once you have the basic principles you could come back and discuss anything that is still troubling you. I’d start with C. S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity first if it were me, even though he wasn’t Catholic. Others here may have better suggestions.

The problem with starting off saying, “How do I know that the Catholic Church is correct about masturbation” and then moving to “How do I know Jesus performed any miracles” is that it is backwards. What is the point of a detailed discussion on papal infallibility, when you don’t know whether you believe Jesus was God? It’s not that the questions don’t both need to be answered (because they do), but that there is no possible argument that could convince you that the Church’s position on masturbation is correct, if you don’t believe Jesus is Lord. You have to build from a foundation; you can’t start with the roof.

But here’s one thing I can tell you for sure. If you are going to insist that God proves his existence to you with “as little doubt as possible involved” it’s not going to happen. It would, of course, be completely easy for God to force knowledge of Himself on all people. But even if it didn’t kill us, it would prevent us from fulfilling our destiny by seeking Him out. In any case, what proof would you find convincing that wouldn’t remove the possibility of the virtue of faith? Faith is believing in things not seen. Once you study and see whether Christanity/Catholicism is acceptable to your reason–“this could be true”–the only way you are going to find out if it is really true is through prayer and the grace of God. God wants us to love Him (because that is how we can become most like Him), and to love Him we must come to know Him through prayer. The best prayer is directed “Not to what I think thou art but to what thou knowest thyself to be,” (from another good book by C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape letters). The more you pray this way, the closer the “what I think thou art” and “what thou knowest thyself to be” come to each other.

Anyway, I suggest you get Mere Christianity. It starts at the beginning (is there a God or not?) and ends at Christianity. I’m not going to say that absolutely all of the steps in between are unassailable because they’re not, but as a framework for thinking about the question, it is very good indeed.

Best wishes,

–Jen

 

[Mijoy2]

Simply being aware of Church teaching on the matter that dictates that the matter is a mortal sin?

I’m referring to masturbation; I’ve been abstinent for about 5 months now, as an 18-year-old male (!), and still cannot for the life of me come up with a very good reason. Point-blank: I cannot see it as truly bad. Do I see it as pure and holy? No, but we all do things that are not pure or holy; we are human.

.

primary:
Hi aperture, I’ll take a cut at this.
When one does the deed, he needs to support the activity with thoughts. These thoughts are immoral and are disordered from the reserved activity (marital embrace) of which this activity should directed.

seconday:
Often times these thoughts progress to more and more disordered thoughts. Much like any addictive behavior it becomes the more the better. One’s mind is no longer satisfied with the supportive thoughts during the deed at a cetain level. They must progress to a greater and greater level of perversion. Much like our society has done over the last few decades. i.e. a MTV video is no longer erotic if a woman is simply wearing a provicative outfit. Nowadays she must also be simulating a sex act or it’s not going to make headlines.

The deed may lead to the same thing. Take it one step further each time.

 

[aperture]

…

If you are “starting from scratch” as it were, from the position that Christianity has to prove itself against every other belief system out there, this is probably not the best way to go about it. It might be better to read a couple of books rather than engage in what would be a much less systematic discussion here. Then, once you have the basic principles you could come back and discuss anything that is still troubling you. I’d start with C. S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity first if it were me, even though he wasn’t Catholic. Others here may have better suggestions.

…

But here’s one thing I can tell you for sure. If you are going to insist that God proves his existence to you with “as little doubt as possible involved” it’s not going to happen. It would, of course, be completely easy for God to force knowledge of Himself on all people. But even if it didn’t kill us, it would prevent us from fulfilling our destiny by seeking Him out. In any case, what proof would you find convincing that wouldn’t remove the possibility of the virtue of faith? Faith is believing in things not seen. Once you study and see whether Christanity/Catholicism is acceptable to your reason–“this could be true”–the only way you are going to find out if it is really true is through prayer and the grace of God. God wants us to love Him (because that is how we can become most like Him), and to love Him we must come to know Him through prayer. The best prayer is directed “Not to what I think thou art but to what thou knowest thyself to be,” (from another good book by C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape letters). The more you pray this way, the closer the “what I think thou art” and “what thou knowest thyself to be” come to each other.

Anyway, I suggest you get Mere Christianity. It starts at the beginning (is there a God or not?) and ends at Christianity. I’m not going to say that absolutely all of the steps in between are unassailable because they’re not, but as a framework for thinking about the question, it is very good indeed.

Best wishes,

–Jen

I have to take issue with the first statement, that God can’t possible communicate his existence to us. He could write his messages in the stars, or re-arrange the letters in a book, or any number of distinctly impossible things. This would make it much, much harder to disbelieve in God and would not “kill us” as you suggested it could. Unless you’re telling me that faith is really necessary, with a suspension of disbelief, at which point we’re back to square 1: what makes the Catholic Church any more worthy of my suspension of disbelief than any other religion?

And I’ve read Mere Christianity. I remember finding some of his points rather weak.

 

[jmcrae]

I have to take issue with the first statement, that God can’t possible communicate his existence to us. He could write his messages in the stars, or re-arrange the letters in a book, or any number of distinctly impossible things. This would make it much, much harder to disbelieve in God and would not “kill us” as you suggested it could. Unless you’re telling me that faith is really necessary, with a suspension of disbelief, at which point we’re back to square 1: what makes the Catholic Church any more worthy of my suspension of disbelief than any other religion?

And I’ve read Mere Christianity. I remember finding some of his points rather weak.

If you are determined to doubt, no one can stop you except God, and He will not interfere with your free will.

If you are looking for reasons to believe, there are plenty of starting places, including the words of the Mass itself. Simply go to Mass and listen attentively to the prayers and readings - there is a ton of material there that you can use as a starting place.

 

[revert_jen]

Unless you’re telling me that faith is really necessary, with a suspension of disbelief,

Faith, yes, suspension of disbelief, no. As I said, faith comes in after you say, “this could be true” because you have examined the claims of the Faith with your reason and found that it is is possible. Faith is what takes you from “this is possible” to “this is true.” It doesn’t take you from “this is impossible” to “this is true.”

at which point we’re back to square 1: what makes the Catholic Church any more worthy of my suspension of disbelief than any other religion?

The answer to that question depends on how far through the Creed you get before you encounter difficulties. e.g. Do you believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth? Do you believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord? and so forth.

–Jen

 

[aperture]

If you are determined to doubt, no one can stop you except God, and He will not interfere with your free will.

If you are looking for reasons to believe, there are plenty of starting places, including the words of the Mass itself. Simply go to Mass and listen attentively to the prayers and readings - there is a ton of material there that you can use as a starting place.

But what I’m saying is that God could stop me; he could do any of the things I mentioned in my last post. And yet he doesn’t. Doing so wouldn’t interfere with free will - I can still worship him or not.

I still go to Mass weekly, and I listen. Sometimes I hear things that make sense to me, sometimes I don’t. There’s nothing that makes me really think the Catholic Church is amazing.

 

[aperture]

Faith, yes, suspension of disbelief, no. As I said, faith comes in after you say, “this could be true” because you have examined the claims of the Faith with your reason and found that it is is possible. Faith is what takes you from “this is possible” to “this is true.” It doesn’t take you from “this is impossible” to “this is true.”

The answer to that question depends on how far through the Creed you get before you encounter difficulties. e.g. Do you believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth? Do you believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord? and so forth.

–Jen

I guess you could say that I’ve examined the claims of Faith and find it very unlikely. As far as the Creed goes, I am having difficulties with the first. I do feel that there is a God; I am not sure that he cares.

 

[jmcrae]

But what I’m saying is that God could stop me; he could do any of the things I mentioned in my last post. And yet he doesn’t. Doing so wouldn’t interfere with free will - I can still worship him or not.

Of course He could - and sometimes, He does give people incontrovertible evidence of His existence. But to demand that He do so, “or else” puts your belief in Him on to your terms instead of on to His terms.

The first rule is that God is the one who is in charge. He does whatever He wants to do, and we do what He wants us to do. Those who believe God to be a cosmic vending machine, popping out answers to their prayers, have the whole thing backwards - we are God’s servants; He is not our servant.

I still go to Mass weekly, and I listen. Sometimes I hear things that make sense to me, sometimes I don’t. There’s nothing that makes me really think the Catholic Church is amazing.

Where else do you see God coming down from Heaven on to the Altar, and taking on the appearances of bread and wine, in order to become physically united with us in Holy Communion? For me, that’s just mind-blowing - I don’t even know where to start, with how amazing that is, to me. I do get the feeling, though, that I’m the only one who gets blown away by that - it seems as if everyone else just takes it for granted.

 

[aperture]

Of course He could - and sometimes, He does give people incontrovertible evidence of His existence. But to demand that He do so, “or else” puts your belief in Him on to your terms instead of on to His terms.

The first rule is that God is the one who is in charge. He does whatever He wants to do, and we do what He wants us to do. Those who believe God to be a cosmic vending machine, popping out answers to their prayers, have the whole thing backwards - we are God’s servants; He is not our servant.

But why would God only give incontrovertible evidence to only a few people? Doing so would remove what is for most people the biggest obstacle to belief: lack of incontrovertible evidence. Why would God only choose certain people? This, I suppose, begs the answer that God works in ways that we humans cannot understand. Then, I posit, how are we to know anything about Him? How are we to know that He didn’t just give Moses the 10 Commandments as a test, that those rules are meant to be broken, that our fulfillment comes in embracing our most basic selves? It’s a pretty ridiculous idea, but if God is truly inscrutable…

Where else do you see God coming down from Heaven on to the Altar, and taking on the appearances of bread and wine, in order to become physically united with us in Holy Communion? For me, that’s just mind-blowing - I don’t even know where to start, with how amazing that is, to me. I do get the feeling, though, that I’m the only one who gets blown away by that - it seems as if everyone else just takes it for granted.

This entire paragraph requires faith, so as long as that’s up in the air (because I really have never heard of scientific evidence for transubstantiation) I don’t think I should be talking about it.

 

[Brooklyn]

I have only skimmed through this thread, and apologize if I repeat statements from others. But I’d like to give you the reasons why I believe the Catholic Church and love it so much.

I am a cradle Catholic, but left the Church when I was 14 and didn’t come back until 38 years later. One of the biggest reasons why I have reverted back to the Church has come from just meditating on the crucifix. Take a crucifix and look at it - you see a man completely totally exposed and vulnerable, keeping nothing back and literally pouring out his life blood. I see that as the most full and complete definition of love that we will ever see. That man is the Son of God, the one who created the universe and everything in it, the One with all power, One who needs nothing from us. Yet, he completely emptied himself of his power, came to earth as a helpless baby, and allowed his own creation to crucify him. Why? Because his creation had turned away from him and the love he offered them. Mankind was completely cut off from him and the only way to bring them back was by payment for their sin, which was death. So he stepped in and died for us in a brutal, vicious way, so beaten that he was hardly recognizable as a human being.

There is no other religion that teaches this. No other religion has a God who says there is nothing you can give me, but I will give myself to you in the most complete way so that you can be with me. Through my death, you will receive life. I will take on mortality so that you can take on divinity.

You must understand what original sin is. Original sin was our first parents turning from God and his love and telling him they want to do it their own way - they will decide what is right and wrong. Because we are their children, we inherited this sin from them. Just as a baby, through no fault of his own, inherits AIDS from his mother, and therefore has a death sentence, we inherited original sin and a spiritual death sentence. We are all born completely cut off from God, completely and totally spiritually dead, and we are all destined for hell - that is the “gift” that our first parents gave us. Through the beautiful sacrament of baptism, our original sin is washed clean and our relationship with God is restored - in the extraordinary form of baptism (Latin rite), there was an actual exorcism, because the devil is being cast out and we are reunited with God. Of course, we still live in a fallen world and we still have a fallen nature, so we will continue to sin. That is where the magnificent sacrament of confession comes in, when we can be restored to the spiritual state we had at baptism. God says, I don’t care what you did. Just confess it, be truly sorry for it, and it’s as if it never happened.

Then, of course, there is the sacrament of Communion - where does one even begin? Our Lord loves us so much that he humbles himself to come to us under the appearance of bread and wine. He literally becomes one with us. No other religion has anything that even comes close to that!! All other religions are about man appeasing their god’s wrath. We have a God who does just the opposite, always holding out his hand in mercy and love and saying, please come to me. Look at me on the Cross, see how much I love you.

To understand the beauty and depth of the Catholic Church and of our Lord, you must first understand that you are a sinful human being, you have a fallen nature and live in a fallen world. There is no escape from it except through the sacrifice of our Lord. Look around you. Everyone and everything you see in this world is going to either eventually die or fade away. Everything in this world is temporary, nothing will last forever. If you cling to this world, you will die with it.

You started out this thread by saying you are struggling with masturbation. Why do you do it? Because it makes you feel good for a few minutes, but then the good feeling is gone and you need to do it again. You are no longer in charge, the need for the “good feeling” has taken control of you. All you are thinking about is pleasing yourself, getting that “good feeling.” When you do that, you are consumed in selfishness and you are taking away from the good that you could be doing for others. You are literally engaging in sex with yourself, which means that you are cheating on your future wife. It is no different than if you were having sex with another person. Your only reasons for doing this are purely selfish, nothing to do with love of anyone else. That is why it is a sin. God gave us sex as a gift to share with the one we are married to. It is not to be shared with any other person, not even yourself. It is only for your wife.

Those are some of my thoughts. I hope it helps you.

 

[Brooklyn]

Those who believe God to be a cosmic vending machine, popping out answers to their prayers, have the whole thing backwards - we are God’s servants; He is not our servant.

I don’t quite agree with this statement. Yes, we are God’s servants, but first and foremost, he is our servant. If it wasn’t for that fact that he gave up his divinity and died on the cross for us as a common criminal, we would be incapable of doing anything. He first served us, he gave of himself more completely than we can really know. As it says in 1 John 4:10: In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Jesus Christ was the ultimate servant, laying down his life for us, who are so undeserving.

 

[Brooklyn]

This entire paragraph requires faith, so as long as that’s up in the air (because I really have never heard of scientific evidence for transubstantiation) I don’t think I should be talking about it.

The only way you can develop faith is just stepping out and believing something, even if you don’t understand it. Trust me, none of us truly understands transubstantiation. How does a piece of bread and cup of wine become the great God of the universe? We all struggled with that at one time or another. But that is where prayer comes in. If you truly pray to God, be very honest with Him and tell Him, this is a little much for you to believe, he will give you the faith you seek. As the father of a child healed by Jesus said, Lord, I believe, help my unbelief.

I really suggest just meditating on a crucifix. And if at all possible, please go and spend time in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Adoration is always best, but just going to any Catholic Church and spending time in front of the tabernacle will be just as helpful. If you spend time in the presence, of Christ, even if you don’t understand or even accept it, you will find it will have a profound effect on you, because it’s real.

As suggested, even though it might seem like the most boring thing to do, try to pray the Rosary. If you reach out to our Blessed Mother, again even if you don’t fully accept that it’s real, she will lead you to her Son.