What constitutes proper Marian devotion?

[JRKH]

But that’s just it. It’s not about finding my comfort level. It’s about living within God’s will for me. My decision to convert was a decision to quit following my own way and start following God, because I had screwed up my own life so badly that I haven’t wanted to follow my own will since (though, again, I’m still prone to wander and stray). If I wanted to follow my own will, I would still be into all 7 of the deadly sins and proud of it.

Fair enough - but please remember that you have come here for advice because you are having issues. In your earlier post you asked me…
“So does this mean it’s a good idea to just back away altogether?”

I simply offered you a couple of options.

In the end, if your desire it to, as you say, Just follow God, then you will need to take all of these matters to Him in prayer.
As far as the Church is concerned…you are not required to employ intercessory prayer. There is no Magisterial teaching that requires it that I know of.

Does that help?

Peace
James

 

[mathematoons]

Fair enough - but please remember that you have come here for advice because you are having issues. In your earlier post you asked me…
“So does this mean it’s a good idea to just back away altogether?”

I simply offered you a couple of options.

In the end, if your desire it to, as you say, Just follow God, then you will need to take all of these matters to Him in prayer.
As far as the Church is concerned…you are not required to employ intercessory prayer. There is no Magisterial teaching that requires it that I know of.

Does that help?

Peace
James

Yes, it helps, but it’s the emphasis on my comfort level that I find a little troubling, that’s all.

 

[JRKH]

Yes, it helps, but it’s the emphasis on my comfort level that I find a little troubling, that’s all.

Well it seems to me that “discomfort” is what caused you to ask the question in the first place - wouldn’t you agree??

“Comfort levels” are not bad things. It’s true that we should not be TOO comfortable for then we flirt with presumption - but if neither should we push so hard that we risk falling into despair.

Peace
James

 

[LilyM]

I’m still not quite getting what you mean when you say you were ‘putting Mary above Jesus’ or that other Catholics do so.

Did you start believing that it was Mary’s death rather than Christ’s that saved you from your sins?

Did you start thinking that it was Mary’s body and blood you were receiving in the Eucharist for your salvation and not His?

Did you start believing that it was Mary rather than Christ speaking to you through the priest in the confessional and pronouncing absolution of your sins?

Did you have your children baptised in Mary’s name?

Did you stop attending Mass, where all the prayers are directed to the Father through Christ and Mary gets no more mention than all the other saints and angels?

And start thinking that praying the Rosary or other good and holy but entirely optional Marian prayers was more efficacious or more important than Mass or something?

Did you see others fall into these errors?

Unless you did, or others did, I really fail to see how you or they were in any relevant sense placing Mary ‘above’ Jesus. Perhaps you’d care to explain a bit better, then I might understand what you mean.

 

[mathematoons]

I’m still not quite getting what you mean when you say you were ‘putting Mary above Jesus’ or that other Catholics do so.

…

I really fail to see how you or they were in any relevant sense placing Mary ‘above’ Jesus. Perhaps you’d care to explain a bit better, then I might understand what you mean.

I neglected other forms of prayer. All I wanted to do was “be in” Mary’s presence. Of course, this is impossible since she’s in Heaven and cannot be everywhere on Earth, unlike Jesus. I knew this and didn’t care. I went on like this for a while until God (or maybe even Mary herself) convicted me of making her into an idol.

I think excessive Marian devotion inherently leads to this. The more time we spend “with” Mary, the less time there is for God. The way I know this is, each time I increased my devotion a little bit (I’ve been meditating on her a lot this Advent), I had an urge to increase it more, and more, and more, until I forgot about Jesus. It was like a drug. She was pretty much all I thought about for a while. In the midst of it, I asked God if I was doing something wrong. I made the excuse that some saints had loved Mary as fanatically as I was doing. (For this reason, I’m starting to question whether I should imitate saints.) But sin blinded me. When you’re making excuses to God, you know it’s bad. But I didn’t.

The next day, I finally got the message to stop. I can’t exactly explain it, but I just knew I had gone too far and had to stop. I had sinned, “cheated on God,” so to speak. I tried talking to my priest, but you saw what I wrote about him.

Most Catholics i have met practically ignore Jesus in favor of Mary. For a while, I was one of them.

 

[ajecphotos]

Obviously you went way over the top and forgot about Jesus / god. When I say I worship Mary it means I am a devout follower of hers but I don’t place her above god! It is a devotion I have for her. Maybe ‘worship’ is too strong a word for you as you make it out to be that she is on a pedestal above all else.

With me, I pray the rosary regularly but pray to God a lot more.

There is nothing wrong in praying to Mary, deeply. It is what Jesus would want. But, we pray ‘through’ Mary to Jesus. I have never met any catholic that puts Mary above God, ever. You said yourself you neglected other prayers to pray to Mary solely. I have never done that.

Worship can mean different things to different people. If Mary was the only person you prayed to then yes, that would be classed as Worship in the extreme.

A balanced approach to prayer is what is needed.

I think you should see a priest for guidance and get back to ‘basics’

God bless

 

[MaryT777]

No, I don’t want to be Baptist. But Satan tempts me with that periodically because I’m sick to death of the moral relativism and Mary worship I see among the Catholics I meet.

I’m sorry you see as such in the Catholics you I meet. I myself have seen moral relativism
among Catholics for sure. Unfortunately it’s a Church full of sinners. I have not seen Mary worship among Catholics I know but I’m sorry also you’ve experienced marian devotion that seems as such its worship to you.

I will pray for your discernment.
Mary.

 

[LilyM]

I neglected other forms of prayer. All I wanted to do was “be in” Mary’s presence. Of course, this is impossible since she’s in Heaven and cannot be everywhere on Earth, unlike Jesus. I knew this and didn’t care. I went on like this for a while until God (or maybe even Mary herself) convicted me of making her into an idol.

I think excessive Marian devotion inherently leads to this. The more time we spend “with” Mary, the less time there is for God. The way I know this is, each time I increased my devotion a little bit (I’ve been meditating on her a lot this Advent), I had an urge to increase it more, and more, and more, until I forgot about Jesus. It was like a drug. She was pretty much all I thought about for a while. In the midst of it, I asked God if I was doing something wrong. I made the excuse that some saints had loved Mary as fanatically as I was doing. (For this reason, I’m starting to question whether I should imitate saints.) But sin blinded me. When you’re making excuses to God, you know it’s bad. But I didn’t.

The next day, I finally got the message to stop. I can’t exactly explain it, but I just knew I had gone too far and had to stop. I had sinned, “cheated on God,” so to speak. I tried talking to my priest, but you saw what I wrote about him.

Most Catholics i have met practically ignore Jesus in favor of Mary. For a while, I was one of them.

So what are you saying - you stopped going to Mass? Stopped receiving Communion?

The Mass is the most important and sublime prayer we have, Holy Communion a far more intimate and deeper connection with God than any amount of ‘being in Mary’s presence’. And both are entirely Christocentric. Very few Catholics indeed fail to understand this and wouldn’t tell you so in a heartbeat if you asked. I bet you never have.

By the way - of course we are always in Mary’s presence! She is one of the chief of the ‘cloud of invisible witnesses’ that St Paul writes about who constantly surround us. And she may not exactly be omnipresent in the same fashion that God is - but then again St John was gifted to be able to see all of heaven, earth and the underworld at one point in Revelation, so it is not impossible either.

 

[mathematoons]

So what are you saying - you stopped going to Mass? Stopped receiving Communion?

The Mass is the most important and sublime prayer we have, Holy Communion a far more intimate and deeper connection with God than any amount of ‘being in Mary’s presence’. And both are entirely Christocentric. Very few Catholics indeed fail to understand this and wouldn’t tell you so in a heartbeat if you asked. I bet you never have.

By the way - of course we are always in Mary’s presence! She is one of the chief of the ‘cloud of invisible witnesses’ that St Paul writes about who constantly surround us. And she may not exactly be omnipresent in the same fashion that God is - but then again St John was gifted to be able to see all of heaven, earth and the underworld at one point in Revelation, so it is not impossible either.

You sound like you just want to fight. I’m talking about a real problem. How dare you dismiss it like that! Is it too much to ask for people to believe me when I say I forgot about Jesus? How would you like it if I called you a liar?

This is why I left these forums. All I ever get for my questions is someone badgering me for disagreeing with them.

 

[LilyM]

You sound like you just want to fight. I’m talking about a real problem. How dare you dismiss it like that! Is it too much to ask for people to believe me when I say I forgot about Jesus? How would you like it if I called you a liar?

This is why I left these forums. All I ever get for my questions is someone badgering me for disagreeing with them.

I’m not calling you a liar, settle down. I am saying that you were in a very rare position and among a very small minority - maybe not among your acquaintance since you seem to think that they were all or mostly just like you - but among Catholics in general.

Neither am I saying you did the wrong thing by toning down the Marian devotion if it was so disturbing. You say it was like a drug addiction - well I would say it is like alcohol that the majority use responsibly and well and some unfortunately do not. That alcoholism is real does not make the whole world or the majority of it alcoholic or prone to alcoholism.

I will certainly pray that you and all like minded folks find the right balance, rather than discard Mary altogether (which Our Lord absolutely would not want).

 

[FCEGM]

. . . What constitutes proper Marian devotion? I know we need to have some kind of devotion, and that she is our mother, but beyond that, it’s kind of vague.

I think JRKH’s post answers you well. This also may help give you some perspective:

philvaz.com/apologetics/a81.htm

In other such discussions I’ve recommended the reading of Pope Paul VI’s Papal Exhortation, Marialis Cultus:

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19740202_marialis-cultus_en.html

A brief excerpt:

“The development, desired by us, of devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is an indication of the Church’s genuine piety. This devotion fits-as we have indicated above-into the only worship that is rightly called “Christian,” because it takes its origin and effectiveness from Christ, finds its complete expression in Christ, and leads through Christ in the Spirit to the Father. In the sphere of worship this devotion necessarily reflects God’s redemptive plan, in which a special form of veneration is appropriate to the singular place which Mary occupies in that plan.”

And all that stuff about her intercession? A saint, by definition, is a person whose will is completely submitted to God’s. If I ask Mary, or any other saint, to intercede for me, God still has the final say, so they’re not going to be able to pray for something God doesn’t want. For this reason, I don’t ask anyone to pray for me, saint or not. What kind of God would allow a creature to change His plan?

Then why do YOU pray?

 

[JRKH]

You sound like you just want to fight. I’m talking about a real problem. How dare you dismiss it like that! Is it too much to ask for people to believe me when I say I forgot about Jesus? How would you like it if I called you a liar?

This is why I left these forums. All I ever get for my questions is someone badgering me for disagreeing with them.

Maybe it’s just me but I did not sense a “belligerent” attitude in Lily’s post.

And even if there was…Could you not simply ignore such a post?

Have not others taken you seriously and tried to offer you sound advice? I know that I have…
Why allow yourself to become so quickly upset that you forget those who have sincerely tried to help and instead declare that “All I ever get for my questions is someone badgering me…”.
It that is All that gets through…then perhaps you need to prayerfully consider your outlook and attitude a bit.
I do not offer this as an attack, but out of Christian Love…

Peace
James

 

[mathematoons]

Maybe it’s just me but I did not sense a “belligerent” attitude in Lily’s post.

And even if there was…Could you not simply ignore such a post?

Have not others taken you seriously and tried to offer you sound advice? I know that I have…
Why allow yourself to become so quickly upset that you forget those who have sincerely tried to help and instead declare that “All I ever get for my questions is someone badgering me…”.
It that is All that gets through…then perhaps you need to prayerfully consider your outlook and attitude a bit.
I do not offer this as an attack, but out of Christian Love…

Peace
James

Your advice was helpful. Everyone else seems to be saying, “How dare you not bow down before our mother goddess, I mean venerate Mary.”

If I sounded like I thought your advice was not helpful, I apologize.

Maybe it is like alcohol, where some do well with it and others just get drunk.

 

[VirtusTransitus]

Some of this thread seems to boil down to semantics. Sometimes folks are loose with terminology, especially on message boards. In a polite conversation over coffee, I doubt any serious Catholic would insist that they actually WORSHIP Mary. One quick definition of worship (versus reverence, or intercession) would clear that up quickly.

And some of it seems to be legalistic. What I mean is, some of the discussion seems focused on perceptions of what others are doing, and whether they are following the Church’s teachings.

I like the advice to pray about it (reflectively, straight to Jesus) and possibly back off Marian devotion.

As a returning cradle Catholic, the first place I turned was the Rosary. Not to worship Mary, but to reflect on the Mysteries and ask Mary to help me return to God’s will for me.

There is no recipe, in my opinion. God’s relationship with each of us is unique, just as our relationships with family and loved ones are each unique. My father is a devoted Catholic and he does not pray the Rosary often. My grandfather, however, did. Both men have/had a much deeper relationship with the Lord than I currently do. Both were different. Both were Catholic.

 

[JRKH]

Your advice was helpful. Everyone else seems to be saying, “How dare you not bow down before our mother goddess, I mean venerate Mary.”

If I sounded like I thought your advice was not helpful, I apologize.

I’m glad that my advice has been helpful….But if I may ask….please review this thread again….
Fred Conty, Mary T777, Mark121359, and Even LilyM have all tried to understand better and offer advice.

Accepting my advice as helpful and then saying “Everyone else seems to be saying…(negatives)”, only continues the very problem I am trying to address here with you.
It strikes me as rather funny that you took umbrage at LilyM’s posts asking you questions and trying to understand, while you make postings accusing…and I quote…
“I think the reason Protestants say we Catholics worship Mary is because most Catholics really do worship Mary”.
When you make such a statement, should you be surprised then that others take issue with it?? Should that then cause you to accuse everyone of being unhelpful, and accusatory of you? Are you allowed to make unsubstantiated blanket statements with impunity? I’m sure that such is not your intent and I only bring it up to put the whole matter into perspective.

We wish to be of help to you. We wish to offer sound advice and insight. We each have different ways of expressing ourselves and sometimes we grate on each other. That is to be expected. I hope that after reading this you WILL take the time to carefully reread this thread and make note of the things that were said to you that upset you - and also things that you said that might have upset others.

Then - perhaps we can all put aside the bickering over style and get back to acting in Christian Charity and getting you the best answer we can.

Peace
James

 

[LilyM]

Your advice was helpful. Everyone else seems to be saying, “How dare you not bow down before our mother goddess, I mean venerate Mary.”

If I sounded like I thought your advice was not helpful, I apologize.

Maybe it is like alcohol, where some do well with it and others just get drunk.

A better analogy might be food - we all need to eat, most people can eat moderately and not too unhealthily with just a little care, some find it very difficult but we cannot avoid food altogether and those who have difficulties need to try to develop a proper perspective, difficult as it may be.

We all need to have a relationship with Mary - Christ commanded us to love one another as He loves us, and if He loves anyone He loves her and perfectly obeys the commandment to honour her. So our relationship It’s a matter of developing a right relationship - one where she is important but magnifies instead of overshadowing God. And we can possibly begin by asking her and Him to teach us how.

 

[mathematoons]

A better analogy might be food - we all need to eat, most people can eat moderately and not too unhealthily with just a little care, some find it very difficult but we cannot avoid food altogether and those who have difficulties need to try to develop a proper perspective, difficult as it may be.

We all need to have a relationship with Mary - Christ commanded us to love one another as He loves us, and if He loves anyone He loves her and perfectly obeys the commandment to honour her. So our relationship It’s a matter of developing a right relationship - one where she is important but magnifies instead of overshadowing God. And we can possibly begin by asking her and Him to teach us how.

This is exactly the kind of thing I have a problem with. The Church does not teach that we need to have personal devotion to Mary, or a personal relationship with her, to be saved.

As an analogy, I believe that creation happened exactly as described in Genesis (or if it didn’t, then Genesis is how God wants us to understand it, just as we simplify how babies are made when children ask us). I think it helps my relationship with God to believe this. But I’m not going to say you have to believe the same thing to be saved; that would be heresy, because the Church allows us to believe in 6-day creation or theistic evolution.

I don’t have a problem with someone else’s Marian devotion, as long as it doesn’t go too far (though a lot of the time, it seems to). What I have a problem with is people telling me I have to do the same or be damned, which is what your food analogy amounts to. I believe all the right things about her and honor her as a saint who has a special place in the Church. If that’s not enough for you, then you simply confirm my suspicion that you see her as God, i.e. believe or go to Hell.

 

[JRKH]

This is exactly the kind of thing I have a problem with. The Church does not teach that we need to have personal devotion to Mary, or a personal relationship with her, to be saved.

As an analogy, I believe that creation happened exactly as described in Genesis (or if it didn’t, then Genesis is how God wants us to understand it, just as we simplify how babies are made when children ask us). I think it helps my relationship with God to believe this. But I’m not going to say you have to believe the same thing to be saved; that would be heresy, because the Church allows us to believe in 6-day creation or theistic evolution.

I don’t have a problem with someone else’s Marian devotion, as long as it doesn’t go too far (though a lot of the time, it seems to). What I have a problem with is people telling me I have to do the same or be damned, which is what your food analogy amounts to. I believe all the right things about her and honor her as a saint who has a special place in the Church. If that’s not enough for you, then you simply confirm my suspicion that you see her as God, i.e. believe or go to Hell.

I suggest that the next time someone says that to you…You ask them nicely to please provide the official Magisterial document that says If you don’t do ________ you will be damned.

Peace
James

 

[LilyM]

I suggest that the next time someone says that to you…You ask them nicely to please provide the official Magisterial document that says If you don’t do ________ you will be damned.

Peace
James

It’s simple - He said “love one another as I have loved you”. And said it as a commandment not just a pretty suggestion. In fact He labelled it as such by prefacing it as “a new commandment”.

So yes, our relationships, be they with Mary or other folks, are a matter which is important to our salvation. He doesn’t issue commandments about trivial or unimportant or unnecessary things.

And it doesn’t need a magisterial pronouncement to clarify any of this.

 

[mathematoons]

It’s simple - He said “love one another as I have loved you”. And said it as a commandment not just a pretty suggestion. In fact He labelled it as such by prefacing it as “a new commandment”.

So yes, our relationships, be they with Mary or other folks, are a matter which is important to our salvation. He doesn’t issue commandments about trivial or unimportant or unnecessary things.

And it doesn’t need a magisterial pronouncement to clarify any of this.

Somehow I thought the Pope would have a cooler username.

I’m out of here. Every thread on this forum just turns into an argument, not just the ones I participate in.

Thank you JRKH for all your help.