What constitutes worship?

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Charlotte408

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Main Entry: 1wor·ship
Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -ship
Date: before 12th century
1chiefly British : a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem
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I know that we do not worship or pray to Mary and the Saints, but rather that we ask that they intercede with our prayers, and our only salvation comes from Christ…And I’m trying to explain this to a friend- but he supplied a basic definition of the word ‘worship’ and it seems like by definition, we do worship them. We express reverence for them…To me that doesn’t seem like much- I mean, by that logic, every American worships the flag right? But if anyone can help me with how to look at this I’d appreciate it.
 
Yes, technically speaking we DO worship Mary and the Saints - but not the same worship we give to God. Latria, Dulia, Hyper-Dulia - all are worship but are varying degrees of worship. Dulia is more ‘reverence’ than anything - and hyper-dulia is the extended reverence we give specifically to the Blessed Virgin. Latria is the complete adoration of God. It’s this last one that people mostly equate “worship” to mean although that’s not correct.
 
Thank you RosaryCrusader. I too say the Rosary. I’m proud to worship Mary the way Catholics do. I cut and pasted your post. I hope it’s ok if I use it sometimes. God bless Ben F.👍👍👍
 
Charlotte408 said:
I know that we do not worship or pray to Mary and the Saints, but rather that we ask that they intercede with our prayers, and our only salvation comes from Christ…And I’m trying to explain this to a friend- but he supplied a basic definition of the word ‘worship’ and it seems like by definition, we do worship them. We express reverence for them…To me that doesn’t seem like much- I mean, by that logic, every American worships the flag right? But if anyone can help me with how to look at this I’d appreciate it.
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We worship God using the 2nd definition listed because He is the Divine Being. Using definition #4, I guess we would ‘worship’ Mary in the way a young teen girl might ‘worship’ the American Idol winner. This is nothing to take away from Mary, but I believe definition #4 focuses on the slangy, pop-culture version of ‘worship’, as opposed to the actual prayer/sacrifice/rites worship that God receives from us.

Catholics do not worship Mary in the sense she is a deity, and I think that is why the use of the word ‘worship’ by Catholics relates to God and the practicing of the sacraments. Mary is absolutely revered, honored, and prayed to for her intercessions, but she is not worshipped. Anyone trying to argue that point on an uncommon usage of a broadly-used word is simply trying to claw at what he/she cannot grasp. It’s not about the words used, it’s about the practice, the actions, and the intentions.
 
RosaryCrusader said:
Yes, technically speaking we DO worship Mary and the Saints - but not the same worship we give to God. Latria, Dulia, Hyper-Dulia - all are worship but are varying degrees of worship. Dulia is more ‘reverence’ than anything - and hyper-dulia is the extended reverence we give specifically to the Blessed Virgin. Latria is the complete adoration of God. It’s this last one that people mostly equate “worship” to mean although that’s not correct.
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Basically the context changed over time, I guess this is driven by anti-Catholics who wish to take it against us. So we have to use different words to differentiate the meaning of the different levels of worship.
 
Any English definition of the word is going to be tainted by the difference in the meaning of “worship” between catholics and protestants. The English language is inevitably a protestant tongue and that reality reflects in any dictionary definitions.

The catholic meaning of the word inherently contains the idea of sacrifice. Worship isn’t worship without some level of sacrifice. This is why the highest form of worship is the sacrifice of the mass. We worship God when we sacrifice something precious to Him.

Protestants lost that when they rejected the sacrifice of the mass. For them, worship is merely an expression of religious awe, not much different from the word “praise.”
 
ConstantineTG said:
Basically the context changed over time, I guess this is driven by anti-Catholics who wish to take it against us. So we have to use different words to differentiate the meaning of the different levels of worship.
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I agree - that’s why I threw in the “technically” part. We don’t want to run around telling protestants we “worship” Mary when it could give the wrong impression.
 
RosaryCrusader said:
I agree - that’s why I threw in the “technically” part. We don’t want to run around telling protestants we “worship” Mary when it could give the wrong impression.
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Need to tell them we “venerate” Mary.

But I agree with manualman, we shouldn’t have to defend our English terminology to Protestants because English is not the Church’s official language.
 
ProVobis said:
Need to tell them we “venerate” Mary.

But I agree with manualman, we shouldn’t have to defend our English terminology to Protestants because English is not the Church’s official language.
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Its not really for them, its for the poorly catechized Catholic who’s getting proselytized by them.
 
Charlotte408 said:
I know that we do not worship or pray to Mary and the Saints, but rather that we ask that they intercede with our prayers, and our only salvation comes from Christ…And I’m trying to explain this to a friend- but he supplied a basic definition of the word ‘worship’ and it seems like by definition, we do worship them. We express reverence for them…To me that doesn’t seem like much- I mean, by that logic, every American worships the flag right? But if anyone can help me with how to look at this I’d appreciate it.
Click to expand...
Main Entry: 1wor·ship
Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -ship
Date: before 12th century
1chiefly British : a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem

Your friend is trying to trick you, by making you think that all definitions of a word apply at all times. Maybe he should relearn his english.

If a british person calls a mayor ‘your worship’, has he called him God? Is he worshipping the mayor as God? Of course not.

#2 applies to God.

#3 applies to the Mass

#4 would seem to apply to pagans who worship an object as God. (The Blessed Virgin Mary is not an object.)
 
JM3 said:
4: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem
…

#4 would seem to apply to pagans who worship an object as God. (The Blessed Virgin Mary is not an object.)
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I don’t think it means an “object” as in a thing, but rather an “object of esteem”. For example, a star athlete is an object of esteem. Like fans of Michael Jordan worship him. Its not a religious type of worship, but you wear Air Jordans, drink Gatorade, buy anything he endorses or things that would have his image like trading cards, magazines, posters, etc.

So yes it applies to the Virgin Mary because the life she lived is something we would want to emulate, we want to be like her.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I don’t think it means an “object” as in a thing, but rather an “object of esteem”. For example, a star athlete is an object of esteem. Like fans of Michael Jordan worship him. Its not a religious type of worship, but you wear Air Jordans, drink Gatorade, buy anything he endorses or things that would have his image like trading cards, magazines, posters, etc.

So yes it applies to the Virgin Mary because the life she lived is something we would want to emulate, we want to be like her.
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Maybe in your english. In my english, people are not objects.

Perhaps this is the problem, people using english incorrectly.
 
JM3 said:
Maybe in your english. In my english, people are not objects.

Perhaps this is the problem, people using english incorrectly.
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Er, and what is your english? Sorry, but you are separating the word “object” from the entire phrase “object of esteem” which changes the context entirely. A quick visit to webster.com offers this:

2
a : something mental or physical toward which thought, feeling, or action is directed
b : something physical that is perceived by an individual and becomes an agent for psychological identification
 
JM3 said:
Maybe in your english. In my english, people are not objects.

Perhaps this is the problem, people using english incorrectly.
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Better not tell your spouse that she is NOT the OBJECT of your desire then! 😛
 
Charlotte408 said:
I know that we do not worship or pray to Mary and the Saints, but rather that we ask that they intercede with our prayers, and our only salvation comes from Christ…And I’m trying to explain this to a friend- but he supplied a basic definition of the word ‘worship’ and it seems like by definition, we do worship them. We express reverence for them…To me that doesn’t seem like much- I mean, by that logic, every American worships the flag right? But if anyone can help me with how to look at this I’d appreciate it.
Click to expand...
The important distinction is we believe Mary and the saints are not God’s equals. They are created beings, completely dependant on Him for everything they are and do. They worship God like we do.

Someone who worshipped more than one god would see the gods as peers of each other - roughly equally powerful beings who fight for power. Mary and the saints are completely subservient to God. It would be an insult to a pagan god in the pantheon of gods to ask him or her to pray for you to another god. It would deny their divinity.
 
Our worship centers around the Sacrifice of Jesus which is what is offered in our Worship.

Since Protestants do not offer the Sacrifice and substitute their reverence for God then usually are confused when they see us show reverence for people we love such as Mary.

It is impossible for a good Catholic to worship Mary as they would know that Catholic worship involves the Holy Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross which then has to be centered on Jesus. There are many poorly catechized Catholics who don’t look at the Mass as the Holy Sacrifice and as more of a gathering which only shows reverence. This leads them to be easy targets for being led out of the Church.

In Christ
Scylla
 
I fail to see why we Catholics have to change the definitions of words that we have used in worship for 2000 years to conform to the recent changes made by non-Catholics.

Why, even though ‘most’ people today use the word ‘gay’ almost exclusively to mean ‘homosexual’, you don’t see them insisting that a work of literature or a song or show from the 19th or even the early to mid 20th century which uses ‘gay’ meant it then to mean homosexual, right?

So why would prayers or works of literature written in many cases decades or even CENTURIES before the ‘non-Catholics’ CHANGED the definition of certain words be FORCED on us Catholics by them to be understood as ONLY in that non-Catholic definition??

It doesn’t make sense unless you’re going to tell generations that The Flintstones having a ‘gay old time’ meant. . . well, let’s not go there. And the Flintstones is only 50 years old. . . If people are willing to not ‘force’ the current definition of ‘gay’ to a show only 50 years old, why do they ‘force’ their redefined and ‘new’ definitions of words like ‘worship’ and ‘prayer’ and ‘veneration’ and ‘adore’ etc. etc. etc. onto works that are older by far than 50 years?

Fair is fair. . .
 
Tantum_ergo said:
I fail to see why we Catholics have to change the definitions of words that we have used in worship for 2000 years to conform to the recent changes made by non-Catholics.

Why, even though ‘most’ people today use the word ‘gay’ almost exclusively to mean ‘homosexual’, you don’t see them insisting that a work of literature or a song or show from the 19th or even the early to mid 20th century which uses ‘gay’ meant it then to mean homosexual, right?

So why would prayers or works of literature written in many cases decades or even CENTURIES before the ‘non-Catholics’ CHANGED the definition of certain words be FORCED on us Catholics by them to be understood as ONLY in that non-Catholic definition??

It doesn’t make sense unless you’re going to tell generations that The Flintstones having a ‘gay old time’ meant. . . well, let’s not go there. And the Flintstones is only 50 years old. . . If people are willing to not ‘force’ the current definition of ‘gay’ to a show only 50 years old, why do they ‘force’ their redefined and ‘new’ definitions of words like ‘worship’ and ‘prayer’ and ‘veneration’ and ‘adore’ etc. etc. etc. onto works that are older by far than 50 years?

Fair is fair. . .
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Excellent points. I can’t even listen to Oldies but Goodies music without flinching a little bit.
 
Excellent point but try explaining that to someone living in the ‘now’. I can hear the response already, 'Oh, so just so the protestants could have a way to put down the catholics the whole english speaking world has this conspiracy to change the meaning of the word ‘worship’.

I mean, I understand all of this, but its like…some people, there just is NO leveling with them. And this protestant guy, take that back, every protestant I’ve talked to, its like they BOMBARD you with all these different topics and questions and its like, before you can even tackle ONE point and have them agree that its settled, they’ve already presented like- 15 more. Its so…whimpers …stressful. LOL.
 
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