What could women do prior to Vatican II in the Tridentine Mass?

[Cider]

Women distribute the Eucharist now?

I’ve been away from the NO a long time; the last one I attended was, I think, 1978, right before I became Traditional. Someone told me they introduced the concept of “altar girls” since then, but I wouldn’t know.

Boy, I’ve been really sheltered from a lot, haven’t I?

At the Tridentine mass only the priest and deacon distribute. Even at the NO at my parish they are the only ones that do. Although most NO parishes do have lay men and women distribute.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Maybe they did it in the first century, I don’t know, but the thought of ANYONE other than a priest or transitional deacon distributing communion didn’t occur until well after Vatican II. It wasn’t until most, if not almost everyone, started receiving (at least in the English Masses) and the number of priests declining that they realized they thought they needed to speed things up a little. Just saying.

That might by why they came about, but why do some Catholics object to it?

 

[Zhenia]

At the Tridentine mass only the priest and deacon distribute. Even at the NO at my parish they are the only ones that do. Although most NO parishes do have lay men and women distribute.

Believe me, I know there are no women distributing the Eucharist at the TLM! The last NO I went to was 1978, and the last TLM I assisted at was somewhere in the 1990s, I think. So I have had absolutely no experience with the NO (novus ordo, “new mass”), since 1978. That’s why I was so shocked to learn they now have women doing things.

 

[Bigcat71]

That might by why they came about, but why do some Catholics object to it?

Many of us object to ANYONE, male or female distributing Holy Communion other than Priests or Deacons…

Many of us were taught that the Priest was special in that he and he alone could confect the Eucharist and thus was in a more advanced position spiritually than we were. We were not equal. Many of us object to Communion in the hand for essentially for the same reason. We do not feel worthy to hold the Body of Christ in our hands. Only the hands of a Priest and Deacon are considered worthy to handle the Eucharist.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Believe me, I know there are no women distributing the Eucharist at the TLM! The last NO I went to was 1978, and the last TLM I assisted at was somewhere in the 1990s, I think. So I have had absolutely no experience with the NO (novus ordo, “new mass”), since 1978. That’s why I was so shocked to learn they now have women doing things.

I go to a NO mass, and the Priest gives out communion in the centre, and there are usually women who give it out to the far left of the Church and the right. The women though are usually Sisters from the convent nearby. It’s a large Parish, so if it was left to just the Priest we’d be there for a while queueing.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Many of us object to ANYONE, male or female distributing Holy Communion other than Priests or Deacons…

Many of us were taught that the Priest was special in that he and he alone could confect the Eucharist and thus was in a more advanced position spiritually than we were. We were not equal. Many of us object to Communion in the hand for essentially for the same reason. We do not feel worthy to hold the Body of Christ in our hands. Only the hands of a Priest and Deacon are considered worthy to handle the Eucharist.

It makes sense.

My comments however were originally about the remark against women reading during Mass. What is the objection to that based upon?

 

[Bigcat71]

I go to a NO mass, and the Priest gives out communion in the centre, and there are usually women who give it out to the far left of the Church and the right. The women though are usually Sisters from the convent nearby. It’s a large Parish, so if it was left to just the Priest we’d be there for a while queueing.

It really doesn’t take that long. Trust me on that one. And if it does take a little longer it just gives you more time to have your mind and heart in the right place and be properly disposed to receive. Oh and you will greatly upset some here by referring to the New Mass or the Ordinary Form as a NO Mass or a Novus Ordo mass. They see those terms and denigrating and insulting…

 

[Padraig1972]

What is the objection to women administering the Eucharist based on?

The apostolate succession. The way it should be, forever.

 

[Bigcat71]

It makes sense.

My comments however were originally about the remark against women reading during Mass. What is the objection to that based upon?

Again these roles were reserved to the Clergy. That is the objection. We see the use of lay readers , extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion etc etc, as encroaching onto the domain of the Clergy. It really doesn’t have anything to do with gender. I as well as many others am personally uncomfortable with anyone other than a Priest or Deacon involved in these functions.

 

[Padraig1972]

So you are saying that altar servers that train to become deacons serving at TLM makes you uncomfortable?
That is the same as saying: hey, im a catholic and i do not wish the priesthood to be renewed and growing.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Again these roles were reserved to the Clergy. That is the objection. We see the use of lay readers etc., extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion., etc., as encroaching onto the domain of the Clergy. It really doesn’t have anything to do with gender. I am personally uncomfortable with anyone other than a Priest or Deacon involved in these functions.

But why then focus on women? It seems that most people who voice objections do not object so much if its a male member of the laity. I have yet to see a thread/post proclaiming “I can’t believe men of the laity are ____ at mass!” There are lots of talk about women not being worthy, etc etc - no one has simply said “it’s because they’re not a Priest”.

Not accusing you of anything here, I think you’ve been very helpful in explaining things to me and I agree with you whole heartedly.

 

[LemonAndLime]

It really doesn’t take that long. Trust me on that one. And if it does take a little longer it just gives you more time to have your mind and heart in the right place and be properly disposed to receive. Oh and you will greatly upset some here by referring to the New Mass or the Ordinary Form as a NO Mass or a Novus Ordo mass. They see those terms and denigrating and insulting…

Why is that?

 

[Bigcat71]

So you are saying that altar servers that train to become deacons serving at TLM makes you uncomfortable?

That is the same as saying: hey, im a catholic and i do not wish the priesthood to be renewed and growing.

Altar Servers are generally not clergy unless they are transitional Deacons… Once they are Deacons then they will serve. Seminarians should not serve until they reach the stage of Transitional Deacon which is the last step prior to being ordained. They assist the Priest in the formalities of the Mass. Their proper function in the distribution of Holy Communion is to ensure that no particles of the Holy Species falls upon the floor. To this end they use a paten, held under the mouth of the recipient to catch any particles that fall.

Distributing the Holy Eucharist is not an requisite to entering a seminary and becoming a Priest.

 

[Bigcat71]

But why then focus on women? It seems that most people who voice objections do not object so much if its a male member of the laity. I have yet to see a thread/post proclaiming “I can’t believe men of the laity are ____ at mass!” There are lots of talk about women not being worthy, etc etc - no one has simply said “it’s because they’re not a Priest”.

Not accusing you of anything here, I think you’ve been very helpful in explaining things to me and I agree with you whole heartedly.

I am answering you from a Traditionalist viewpoint. Most of us that object to the use of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion object to the entire practice without gender entering into it. That being said, I am sure there are those who adhere to Saint Pauls condemnation of women speaking or really doing much of anything in Church.

As an aside you have never seen a post of mine singling out women extraordinary ministers. I object to the entire institution.

 

[Bigcat71]

Why is that?

Well in the PC world that we live in they see the letters NO Mass and assume that those saying it are in essence saying that there is no mass. They object to Novus Ordo because the official name is the Ordinary Form. They see using the term Novus Ordo as somehow demeaning the Mass by implying that it is a new creation rather than a continuation of the old.

 

[Padraig1972]

Altar Servers are not clergy. Once they are Deacons then they will be allowed to serve. Seminarians should not serve until they reach the stage of Transitional Deacon which is the last step prior to being ordained. They assist the Priest in the formalities of the Mass. Their proper function in the distribution of Holy Communion is to ensure that no particles of the Holy Species falls upon the floor. To this end they use a paten, held under the mouth of the recipient to catch any particles that fall.

Distributing the Holy Eucharist is not an requisite to entering a seminary and becoming a Priest.

You know what, we celebrate Traditional Latin Mass in the diocese of Oslo, Norway twice a month. The altar servers here are lay clergy. I find it sad that you say: this is illicit.

That means that you do not welcome any of us to become deacons or priests in the future.

 

[Bigcat71]

You know what, we celebrate Traditional Latin Mass in the diocese of Oslo, Norway twice a month. The altar servers here are lay clergy. I find it sad that you say: this is illicit.

That means that you do not welcome any of us to become deacons or priests in the future.

My friend there is no such thing as lay clergy. Sorry. You are one or the other. You do not have to distribute Holy Communion to become either a Priest or a Deacon. If you are following the rubrics of the 1962 Missal as prescribed in the Motu Proprio then an Altar Server cannot distribute Holy Communion anyway unless he is a Deacon or a Priest. That is just the way it is. I did not make it up… If you are a seminarian, then in the last year of your schooling you will become a Transitional Deacon.

 

[Padraig1972]

My friend there is no such thing as lay clergy. Sorry. You are one or the other. You do not have to distribute Holy Communion to become either a Priest or a Deacon. If you are following the rubrics of the 1962 Missal as prescribed in the Motu Proprio then an Altar Server cannot distribute Holy Communion anyway unless he is a Deacon or a Priest. That is just the way it is. I did not make it up… If you are a seminarian, then in the last year of your schooling you will become a Transitional Deacon.

We must misunderstand each other here. None of them do. They bring incence, move the books from the side of the altar to the other, pray with the priest during mass and assist when he distribute communion.

Is that not altar serving and is it forbidden? I just get more and more confused and upset here.

 

[archangel04]

I feel we should just go back and not allowing laity to read nor distribute communion unless under EXTREME circumstances. There you got “equality” lol. All this fighting about what men or women can and canno’t do is just childish. The Church allows it, yeah I don’t like it either, but until she changes some disciplines we humbly must accept, that’s swallowing a lot of pride for me lol. I think a lot of people forget that we have to pray for humility first before ever taking any certain “position” in the Church.

 

[Zhenia]

I go to a NO mass, and the Priest gives out communion in the centre, and there are usually women who give it out to the far left of the Church and the right. The women though are usually Sisters from the convent nearby. It’s a large Parish, so if it was left to just the Priest we’d be there for a while queueing.

I dunno, it seemed to work just fine for about a couple thousand years before the change was made.