What could women do prior to Vatican II in the Tridentine Mass?

[Hecares]

I’m happy for you all who have plenty of priests, acolytes, deacons and subdeacons to celebrate liturgies. That’s not the case in many place.

The last time I checked, the military was way under the number of priest they needed to meet the basic needs of their people. Usually there have been few if any deacons; and I’ve never seen sub-deacons or acolytes at Catholic services in military chapels. If they didn’t have trusted laypeople to help, the Catholic population would be sadly neglected.

The diocese I am in now has just started to initiate a diaconate program and the bishop said recently that he does not see them assisting in liturgies, but rather serving in administrative positions.

We would have one priest serving three parishes were it not for God’s gift of a priest from a religious order who offered and was accepted to help out in our “cluster parish”. Before that they were talking about the third church in the cluster becoming a “mission parish” which would allow the ceelbration of the Mass on another day of the week (not Saturday or Sunday) to meet their Sunday obligation.

With such shortages of clergy, I don’t think the Church can continue to serve a large portion of the laity, unless they allow the laity to serve the Church in a greater capacity than pre-Vatican II.

This is the explanation I have heard for the increased presence fo the laity in serving the Catholic Church.

 

[Bigcat71]

We must misunderstand each other here. None of them do. They bring incence, move the books from the side of the altar to the other, pray with the priest during mass and assist when he distribute communion.

Is that not altar serving and is it forbidden? I just get more and more confused and upset here.

Up until the distribution of Holy Communion you are correct. I was an altar server for many years and I assisted the Priest throughout the Mass. My job was not necessary in a strict sense of the word and I never thought of myself as clergy, nor should I have done so… When time came to distribute I grabbed my paten and assisted the Priest by attemtting to catch particles of the Host that might fall or the Host itself if it fell. Neither the other altar servers or I ever distributed Holy Communion as we were not allowed to. None of us were Deacons or Priests…

Under the terms of the Motu Proprio and Summorum Pontificum, the two documents that permit the celebration of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, the Missal that is to be used is the Missale Romanum of 1962. No deviation is allowed from the rubrics of that Missal. In 1962altar servers could not distribute Holy Communion unless they were Deacons or Priests. If a Priest is celebrating the Extraordinary Form and he allows non ordained people, ie: altar servers who are not deacons or priests to distribute Holy Communion then he is not following the rubrics of that Missal.

 

[Cider]

It really doesn’t take that long. Trust me on that one. And if it does take a little longer it just gives you more time to have your mind and heart in the right place and be properly disposed to receive. Oh and you will greatly upset some here by referring to the New Mass or the Ordinary Form as a NO Mass or a Novus Ordo mass. They see those terms and denigrating and insulting…

Then take it up with the Vatican, they are the ones that named it the Novus Ordo.

 

[Bigcat71]

Then take it up with the Vatican, they are the ones that named it the Novus Ordo.

I was merely answering a question as to why some people object to the name and abbreviation. I did not give my personal feelings on it. I know the name is the Novus Ordae Missae and was even around when it was started.

 

[Padraig1972]

Up until the distribution of Holy Communion you are correct. I was an altar server for many years and I assisted the Priest throughout the Mass. My job was not necessary in a strict sense of the word and I never thought of myself as clergy, nor should I have done so… When time came to distribute I grabbed my paten and assisted the Priest by attemtting to catch particles of the Host that might fall or the Host itself if it fell. Neither the other altar servers or I ever distributed Holy Communion as we were not allowed to. None of us were Deacons or Priests…

Under the terms of the Motu Proprio and Summorum Pontificum, the two documents that permit the celebration of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, the Missal that is to be used is the Missale Romanum of 1962. No deviation is allowed from the rubrics of that Missal. In 1962altar servers could not distribute Holy Communion unless they were Deacons or Priests. If a Priest is celebrating the Extraordinary Form and he allows non ordained people, ie: altar servers who are not deacons or priests to distribute Holy Communion then he is not following the rubrics of that Missal.

Oh…guess i have to change my plans. Don`t want to go against the protocol. I apologize for the words, remarks and such. Im…a bit puzzled. But i guess…out of respect and regret.

 

[nickybr38]

I’m happy for you all who have plenty of priests, acolytes, deacons and subdeacons to celebrate liturgies. That’s not the case in many place.

The last time I checked, the military was way under the number of priest they needed to meet the basic needs of their people. Usually there have been few if any deacons; and I’ve never seen sub-deacons or acolytes at Catholic services in military chapels. If they didn’t have trusted laypeople to help, the Catholic population would be sadly neglected.

The diocese I am in now has just started to initiate a diaconate program and the bishop said recently that he does not see them assisting in liturgies, but rather serving in administrative positions.

We would have one priest serving three parishes were it not for God’s gift of a priest from a religious order who offered and was accepted to help out in our “cluster parish”. Before that they were talking about the third church in the cluster becoming a “mission parish” which would allow the ceelbration of the Mass on another day of the week (not Saturday or Sunday) to meet their Sunday obligation.

With such shortages of clergy, I don’t think the Church can continue to serve a large portion of the laity, unless they allow the laity to serve the Church in a greater capacity than pre-Vatican II.

This is the explanation I have heard for the increased presence fo the laity in serving the Catholic Church.

The one thing the laity will never be able to do is the Consecration. So if there is no priest there will be no communion. I’m not sure how increasing the laities duties can solve that particular problem.

 

[Bigcat71]

I’m happy for you all who have plenty of priests, acolytes, deacons and subdeacons to celebrate liturgies. That’s not the case in many place.

The last time I checked, the military was way under the number of priest they needed to meet the basic needs of their people. Usually there have been few if any deacons; and I’ve never seen sub-deacons or acolytes at Catholic services in military chapels. If they didn’t have trusted laypeople to help, the Catholic population would be sadly neglected.

The diocese I am in now has just started to initiate a diaconate program and the bishop said recently that he does not see them assisting in liturgies, but rather serving in administrative positions.

We would have one priest serving three parishes were it not for God’s gift of a priest from a religious order who offered and was accepted to help out in our “cluster parish”. Before that they were talking about the third church in the cluster becoming a “mission parish” which would allow the ceelbration of the Mass on another day of the week (not Saturday or Sunday) to meet their Sunday obligation.

With such shortages of clergy, I don’t think the Church can continue to serve a large portion of the laity, unless they allow the laity to serve the Church in a greater capacity than pre-Vatican II.

This is the explanation I have heard for the increased presence fo the laity in serving the Catholic Church.

I heard exactly the same argument in 1974, 75, 76 etc. when radical sisters took over parishes and conducted their own liturgies, including confecting the Eucharist. I accept the use of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion in certain extreme circumstances but not at each and every Mass. I recall one such Mass in Southern California. There were four extraordinary ministers to distribute to a crushing crowd of about twenty people. The Priest during this sat down leaving the entire distribution to the laity.

 

[Bigcat71]

Oh…guess i have to change my plans. Don`t want to go against the protocol. I apologize for the words, remarks and such. Im…a bit puzzled. But i guess…out of respect and regret.

Why do you have to change your plans? You do not have to distribute Holy Communion in order to become a Priest. I am not at all sure I understand exactly what you are trying to say.

 

[Hecares]

We must misunderstand each other here. None of them do. They bring incence, move the books from the side of the altar to the other, pray with the priest during mass and assist when he distribute communion.

Is that not altar serving and is it forbidden? I just get more and more confused and upset here.

In churches in the US we have a special position called altar server. They have been involved in the liturgy as long as I can remember - and in the ways you mentioned above. They never distributed communion, but rather assisted at communion by holding the paten under the body of Christ during communion to prevent it falling on the floor.

 

[Hecares]

The one thing the laity will never be able to do is the Consecration. So if there is no priest there will be no communion. I’m not sure how increasing the laities duties can solve that particular problem.

Increasing lay ministry allows the priest to focus on the things only he can so, like say Mass and hear confessions.

 

[laszlo]

The distinction was between the laity and clerics, not between laymen and laywomen. The singing was not part of the mass only a parallel action, so layman and laywoman alike could sing.

In cloisters where man could not enter women served at the altar, although the advisory rule was that they just can recite the answers from a distance Especially if the priest was old, someone had to move the book to the other side, and someone had to help the plate for the distribution of the Eucharist. In that good old time people dis not valued the rules above the reality.

 

[nickybr38]

Increasing lay ministry allows the priest to focus on the things only he can so, like say Mass and hear confessions.

How can we increase lay ministry anymore? I’m confused now. It seems to me lay ministers already do everything BUT say the Mass and hear confession.

Disclaimer: I attend a NO Mass in Canada. If that helps.

 

[Bigcat71]

Increasing lay ministry allows the priest to focus on the things only he can so, like say Mass and hear confessions.

I’m intrigued. So for example, you need lay readers so the Priest can celebrate Mass and hear Confessions. Is that about right?

 

[HelenRose]

So did the implemenation of Vatican II change the level of equality in the laity? A yes or no answer will suffice, I don’t want to get to the forbidden areas of Vatican II. I am just trying to learn more about Pre-Vatican II and Post-Vatican II.

God bless.

It is not a matter of “equality” it is a matter of vocation.

I firmly believe that as a mother, aunt, grandmother, sister, daughter and niece that my vocation as a woman is not less than that of a man’s vocation.

I have never understood the feminist view point that the vocation of being a woman - bringing love and nurture into this world - is a demeaning position. I have enough to do as a woman. I don’t need to usurp the vocation of men.

Quoting Florence Nightingale: “There are enough doctors in this world. I need nurses.”

 

[TrueLight]

.

I have never understood the feminist view point that the vocation of being a woman - bringing love and nurture into this world - is a demeaning position. I have enough to do as a woman. I don’t need to usurp the vocation of men.

Quoting Florence Nightingale: “There are enough doctors in this world. I need nurses.”

That’s a very simplistic way of looking at it.

I don’t think anyone thinks being nurturing and loving is demeaning.

The question is what are women allowed to do at Mass?

 

[Hecares]

I heard exactly the same argument in 1974, 75, 76 etc. when radical sisters took over parishes and conducted their own liturgies, including confecting the Eucharist. I accept the use of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion in certain extreme circumstances but not at each and every Mass. I recall one such Mass in Southern California. There were four extraordinary ministers to distribute to a crushing crowd of about twenty people. The Priest during this sat down leaving the entire distribution to the laity.

The problem was already beginning to surface in the 1970’s. The fact that some people chose to abuse the situation does not make the situation itself invalid, only the solution a few people chose.

When there are enough ordinary ministers of the Eucharist present, extraordinary ministers should not be used. However, some people have argued that extraordinary ministers are scheduled ahead of time, and they often make a great effort in order to get to the Mass for which they were scheduled. Therefore, out of consideration for them, they are sometimes allowed to minister instead of an ordinary minister. I have seen this done in many places. I am not sure whether it comes from the local parishes, the dioceses, or higher up; but it is pretty prevalent.

 

[Bigcat71]

The problem was already beginning to surface in the 1970’s. The fact that some people chose to abuse the situation does not make the situation itself invalid, only the solution a few people chose.

When there are enough ordinary ministers of the Eucharist present, extraordinary ministers should not be used. However, some people have argued that extraordinary ministers are scheduled ahead of time, and they often make a great effort in order to get to the Mass for which they were scheduled. Therefore, out of consideration for them, they are sometimes allowed to minister instead of an ordinary minister. I have seen this done in many places. I am not sure whether it comes from the local parishes, the dioceses, or higher up; but it is pretty prevalent.

The plain truth however is that if the Priest or Deacon is present he is supposed to distribute, not abdicate his position to the laity. That issue has already been addressed and decided on by the Vatican.

 

[Padraig1972]

Why do you have to change your plans? You do not have to distribute Holy Communion in order to become a Priest. I am not at all sure I understand exactly what you are trying to say.

Well…i wished to become a altar servant at Traditional Latin Masses. But not if i would contribute to violate any protocols. That i am a sinner in daily life and try to cope being a good catholic is enough, why make it even worse.

I don`t have good enough grades to become a deacon it seems, i checked it 20 mins ago at a online resource. Oh well.

 

[LemonAndLime]

It is not a matter of “equality” it is a matter of vocation.

I firmly believe that as a mother, aunt, grandmother, sister, daughter and niece that my vocation as a woman is not less than that of a man’s vocation.

I have never understood the feminist view point that the vocation of being a woman - bringing love and nurture into this world - is a demeaning position. I have enough to do as a woman. I don’t need to usurp the vocation of men.

Quoting Florence Nightingale: “There are enough doctors in this world. I need nurses.”

I don’t think most feminists have ever descibed bringing children up as demeaning, the only part that I and other feminists consider demeaning is being told that that is what we must do. Yes, men should have male vocations and women have women’s, but being told that I must, for example, stay at home and raise children instead of working is the demeaning aspect. Feminists have always objected to our gender dictating what we do with our life. Feminism is about choice, not rejecting “the vocation of being a woman”.

Florence Nightingale was a working girl herself you know, but I’m not sure how relevant her quote is.

 

[Hecares]

I’m intrigued. So for example, you need lay readers so the Priest can celebrate Mass and hear Confessions. Is that about right?

If lay ministers take on duties outside the Mass, like distributing communion to the sick, for instance, it allows more time for the priest to say Mass and hear confessions. It has been argued that the Mass is shorter when lay ministers are used. I’m not sure that saves as much time, but in places with tight schedules, it could mean the difference between the next Mass starting on time and not.

There are other areas where laity are use also which can save time:counting money from the colletions, providing counseling or spiritual direction are some that come to mind.