What could women do prior to Vatican II in the Tridentine Mass?

[Hecares]

The plain truth however is that if the Priest or Deacon is present he is supposed to distribute, not abdicate his position to the laity. That issue has already been addressed and decided on by the Vatican.

Please, if you could cite a source for that I would appreciate it. As I said, I don’t know where the instruction I cited came from, but I would like to have a source prohibiting it.

 

[Bigcat71]

If lay ministers take on duties outside the Mass, like distributing communion to the sick, for instance, it allows more time for the priest to say Mass and hear confessions. It has been argued that the Mass is shorter when lay ministers are used. I’m not sure that saves as much time, but in places with tight schedules, it could mean the difference between the next Mass starting on time and not.

There are other areas where laity are use also which can save time:counting money from the colletions, providing counseling or spiritual direction are some that come to mind.

I think I would rather get spiritual guidance from a Priest or Deacon than from a lay person. Ditto for counseling except in certain circumstances. The laity counting the collection makes sense. . I can pretty well assure you that if the Priest did the readings the Mass would not unduly be delayed. Actually distributing Holy Communion to the sick and infirm is the one use of Extraordinary Ministers that I can actually see a valid need for…

 

[TrueLight]

I think I would rather get spiritual guidance from a Priest or Deacon than from a lay person…

Except there is no way priests or deacons can provide counseling alone to huge congregations.

 

[Hecares]

How can we increase lay ministry anymore? I’m confused now. It seems to me lay ministers already do everything BUT say the Mass and hear confession.

Disclaimer: I attend a NO Mass in Canada. If that helps.

My impression is that most of the people who have been reponding to this thread either don’t have lay ministers at thier churches or object to using them if they do. I’m afraid that if we don’t see an increase in vocations to the priesthood, the situation you describe will become more prevalent.

 

[Hecares]

Except there is no way priests or deacons can provide counseling alone to huge congregations.

There are many well-trained lay spiritual directors. They can be a lot more helpful than priests who have little or no trainig and don’t want to be there. A lot of priests will tell you they feel totally unqualified to provide counseling in some situations.

I don’t expect to change your mind. I’ve just been in a situation to see the effects of the small number of priests over the past few years, and I am expressing reality as I see it.

 

[Hecares]

I think I would rather get spiritual guidance from a Priest or Deacon than from a lay person. Ditto for counseling except in certain circumstances. The laity counting the collection makes sense. . I can pretty well assure you that if the Priest did the readings the Mass would not unduly be delayed. Actually distributing Holy Communion to the sick and infirm is the one use of Extraordinary Ministers that I can actually see a valid need for…

There are many well-trained lay spiritual directors. They can be a lot more helpful than priests who have little or no trainig and don’t want to be there. A lot of priests will tell you they feel totally unqualified to provide counseling in some situations.

I don’t expect to change your mind. I’ve just been in a situation to see the effects of the small number of priests over the past few years, and I am expressing reality as I see it.

 

[ProVobis]

Yes, men should have male vocations and women have women’s, but being told that I must, for example, stay at home and raise children instead of working is the demeaning aspect. Feminists have always objected to our gender dictating what we do with our life. Feminism is about choice, not rejecting “the vocation of being a woman”.

I disagree with that view. Nuns were given the roles of running the schools and educating grade schoolers in many countries, a MAJOR task there. They even ran things inside the church (ordering wine and communion hosts, washing linens, decorating the altar, etc.) outside of Mass. If you want to look for blame, I would look first for the reasons for the decline in religious orders.

 

[Walking_Home]

Bigcat71:

The plain truth however is that if the Priest or Deacon is present he is supposed to distribute, not abdicate his position to the laity. That issue has already been addressed and decided on by the Vatican.

Please, if you could cite a source for that I would appreciate it. As I said, I don’t know where the instruction I cited came from, but I would like to have a source prohibiting it.

---

From the instruction RS-2004

The Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion

[157.] If there is usually present a sufficient number of sacred ministers for the distribution of Holy Communion, extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion may not be appointed. Indeed, in such circumstances, those who may have already been appointed to this ministry should not exercise it. The practice of those Priests is reprobated who, even though present at the celebration, abstain from distributing Communion and hand this function over to laypersons.[258]

[158.] Indeed, the extraordinary minister of Holy Communion may administer Communion only when the Priest and Deacon are lacking, when the Priest is prevented by weakness or advanced age or some other genuine reason, or when the number of faithful coming to Communion is so great that the very celebration of Mass would be unduly prolonged.[259] This, however, is to be understood in such a way that a brief prolongation, considering the circumstances and culture of the place, is not at all a sufficient reason.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

 

[Bigcat71]

Please, if you could cite a source for that I would appreciate it. As I said, I don’t know where the instruction I cited came from, but I would like to have a source prohibiting it.

[This is from the Vatican website, and I would think trustworthy and knowledgeable. The relevant passage is as follows, although reading the entire document is beneficial.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/co…#Chapter%20III”]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/co…#Chapter%20III

[157.] If there is usually present a sufficient number of sacred ministers for the distribution of Holy Communion, extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion may not be appointed. Indeed, in such circumstances, those who may have already been appointed to this ministry should not exercise it. The practice of those Priests is reprobated who, even though present at the celebration, abstain from distributing Communion and hand this function over to laypersons.[258]

 

[Bigcat71]

There are many well-trained lay spiritual directors. They can be a lot more helpful than priests who have little or no trainig and don’t want to be there. A lot of priests will tell you they feel totally unqualified to provide counseling in some situations.

I don’t expect to change your mind. I’ve just been in a situation to see the effects of the small number of priests over the past few years, and I am expressing reality as I see it.

You are correct I will not change my mind in the area of spiritual counseling by lay people.

 

[HelenRose]

I don’t think most feminists have ever descibed bringing children up as demeaning, the only part that I and other feminists consider demeaning is being told that that is what we must do. Yes, men should have male vocations and women have women’s, but being told that I must, for example, stay at home and raise children instead of working is the demeaning aspect. Feminists have always objected to our gender dictating what we do with our life. Feminism is about choice, not rejecting “the vocation of being a woman”.

Florence Nightingale was a working girl herself you know, but I’m not sure how relevant her quote is.

I did not say that women should not work outside of the home. I have always worked outside my home and have cared for my family. Considering the fact that more than 50 million abortions have taken place in this country and that Planned Parenthood is the feminist’s dream organization, I have concluded that on the whole feminists see babies and families as less important than their own private goals. A woman’s vocation as a care-giver does not mean she can not extend this vocation out of her home.

We still need more nurses than doctors. We still need more women caring for their families. How many old people are left alone in their old age. Where are the women? How many children on the streets? Where are the women? How many abortions? Where are the women?

Why are so many young lonely and frightened girls trying to find “love” in the arms of lonely frightened young men. Where are the mothers? And for that matter: Where are the fathers?

There are plenty of important duties that highly intelligent and education women can do without taking the vocation of men away from them.

Men and women are different and have different vacations.

Being a priest is a man’s vocation.
This has absolutely nothing to do with equality.

 

[Bigcat71]

Except there is no way priests or deacons can provide counseling alone to huge congregations.

I would guess it depends on the number of people seking counseling. When you figure that in most parishes getting 1/4 to1/3 of the people to even show up for Mass on any given Sunday is cause for celebration, then I doubt the demands on the Priest for spiritual guidance would be overwhelming.

 

[TrueLight]

I would guess it depends on the number of people seking counseling. When you figure that in most parishes getting 1/4 to1/3 of the people to even show up for Mass on any given Sunday is cause for celebration, then I doubt the demands on the Priest for spiritual guidance would be overwhelming.

On the other hand, there are people with lots of problems and if you figure a counseling session can last for 1/2 hour to 1 hour or more, I don’t see how one or two priests can provide for those needs.

Some needs need to be escalated to the priest, but let’s say for example someone needs advice on how to get out of an unholy relationship. Aren’t there any men or women, who live a life of prayer, who can give spiritual advice?

 

[Bigcat71]

Well…i wished to become a altar servant at Traditional Latin Masses. But not if i would contribute to violate any protocols. That i am a sinner in daily life and try to cope being a good catholic is enough, why make it even worse.

I don`t have good enough grades to become a deacon it seems, i checked it 20 mins ago at a online resource. Oh well.

You can still be an altar server at the Traditional Mass. However you are not supposed to distribute Holy Communion. Thats all…

 

[Bigcat71]

On the other hand, there are people with lots of problems and if you figure a counseling session can last for 1/2 hour to 1 hour or more, I don’t see how one or two priests can provide for those needs.

Some needs need to be escalated to the priest, but let’s say for example someone needs advice on how to get out of an unholy relationship. Aren’t there any men or women, who live a life of prayer, who can give spiritual advice?

I think that a lay person could give sound practical advice of course. However in spiritual matters I would prefer to go to a Priest as would many others. Getting out of an unholy as you say relationship really doesn’t require spiritual counseling.

You just walk away.

 

[LemonAndLime]

I did not say that women should not work outside of the home. I have always worked outside my home and have cared for my family. Considering the fact that more than 50 million abortions have taken place in this country and that Planned Parenthood is the feminist’s dream organization, I have concluded that on the whole feminists see babies and families as less important than their own private goals. A woman’s vocation as a care-giver does not mean she can not extend this vocation out of her home.

Are you accusing me of having this view just because I describe myself as feminist?

We still need more nurses than doctors.

Agreed, but what has this got to do with gender-roles? Women can be doctors and men can be nurses!

We still need more women caring for their families. How many old people are left alone in their old age. Where are the women? How many children on the streets? Where are the women? How many abortions? Where are the women?

Where are the men? Are you saying this women’s fault? Yes women have abortions, but I think the problem is part of a wider picture.

Why are so many young lonely and frightened girls trying to find “love” in the arms of lonely frightened young men. Where are the mothers? And for that matter: Where are the fathers?

I think its natural for young people to seek love and partnership. What’s the concern here?

There are plenty of important duties that highly intelligent and education women can do without taking the vocation of men away from them.

Are you just talking about the priesthood here?

Men and women are different and have different vacations.

No one has argued against this so far.

Being a priest is a man’s vocation.
This has absolutely nothing to do with equality.

No one has argued against that either.

Anyway, back on topic - so basically, women could sing in the choir and do the more ‘domestic’ chores such as cleaning, arranging the flowers… but what about women outside of Mass? Did some women lead prayer groups?

 

[HelenRose]

Are you accusing me of having this view just because I describe myself as feminist?

Agreed, but what has this got to do with gender-roles? Women can be doctors and men can be nurses!
Where are the men? Are you saying this women’s fault?
Where are the men? Are you saying this women’s fault?
Where are the men? Yes women have abortions, but I think the problem is part of a wider picture.
Nice you’ve remembered the men there. Well, as for your first question - I think its kind of natural for young people to seek love and partnership, don’t you?
Are you just talking about the priesthood here?
No one has argued against this so far.
No one has argued against that either.

• disclaimer: the above is not the complete quote from LemonAndLime.

Sure women can be doctors: Their families must come first!

You ask, “Where are the men?” I don’t know where the fathers are. In fact I have often wondered where my father was. But that is not my concern. That is their problem. I am concerned about where the mothers are.

You ask, “Is it the women’s fault?” When a woman neglects her responsibilities to her family. Yes.

I ask, “Surely you do not think that teenage girls and boys should be shacking up with one another?”

You said that no has argued against the priesthood being as being man’s job. That statement is not correct. It is the hue and cry of feminist around the world.

 

[TrueLight]

I did not say that women should not work outside of the home. I have always worked outside my home and have cared for my family. Considering the fact that more than 50 million abortions have taken place in this country and that Planned Parenthood is the feminist’s dream organization, I have concluded that on the whole feminists see babies and families as less important than their own private goals. A woman’s vocation as a care-giver does not mean she can not extend this vocation out of her home.

We still need more nurses than doctors. We still need more women caring for their families. How many old people are left alone in their old age. Where are the women? How many children on the streets? Where are the women? How many abortions? Where are the women?
ty.

LemonandLime,

You stated in another thread that no matter what the topic of the thread, it turns into a topic on abortion. I had to chuckle at this.

 

[LemonAndLime]

• disclaimer: the above is not the complete quote from LemonAndLime.

Sure women can be doctors: Their families must come first!

What about men’s families coming first also?

You ask, “Where are the men?” I don’t know where the fathers are. In fact I have often wondered where my father was. But that is not my concern. That is their problem. I am concerned about where the mothers are.

Why should women have the responsibility and the blame from you? Why isn’t it shared equally between husband and wife? Which part the wedding vow states this?

You ask, “Is it the women’s fault?” When a woman neglects her responsibilities to her family. Yes.

Same for a man. Why are you focusing on women?

I ask, “Surely you do not think that teenage girls and boys should be shacking up with one another?”

Who said anything about teenagers “shacking up”? I thought we were talking about hugging, feelings, and young people? I’m a young person, but I’m not a teenager, and certainly not underage, which is a different issue entirely.

You said that no has argued against the priesthood being as being man’s job. That statement is not correct. It is the hue and cry of feminist around the world.

In this thread. Look, this isn’t the right place to have a rant about how it’s women’s fault for this, that. Try and stay on topic or make a thread and invite me to it.

 

[LemonAndLime]

LemonandLime,

You stated in another thread that no matter what the topic of the thread, it turns into a topic on abortion. I had to chuckle at this.

I think it’s nice to be surprised by clicking on a thread about women in the Mass and find abortion being discussed. Just as surprising as discovering that gravity still works…