What dear friend, do you find strange about Catholicism?

[benhur]

I Cor. 11, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, 19*for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.

St. Paul tells us that factions exist so that the genuine faith can be recognized.

Hi g’

“No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval.”

Some think that Paul was speaking “tongue in cheek” here , that the "differences’’ were rich and poor, self imposed differences/factions as if to show superiority, in and of God’s approval. “Really , must we have these factions”, Paul might ask ? Like the rich are genuine and the poor are not, even vice versa ?

But no doubt scripture does talk of factions and in them one can find the genuine, as well as the false. A bit like hot and cold. You can tell who is hot because they are not like the cold.

Blessings

 

[Peter_J]

We do have evidence that the early church confessed before the congregation.

 

[guanophore]

Hi PJM,

To my knowledge there is no evidence that the apostles had confessional time or ‘heard’ confessions . We do have evidence that the early church confessed before the congregation.

Blessings

Yes, public confession was replaced with private rather quickly. How do you think the Apostles could forgive sins unless they were confessed? And why would James encourage individual confession?

Hi g’

“No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval.”

Some think that Paul was speaking “tongue in cheek” here , that the "differences’’ were rich and poor, self imposed differences/factions as if to show superiority, in and of God’s approval. “Really , must we have these factions”, Paul might ask ? Like the rich are genuine and the poor are not, even vice versa ?

But no doubt scripture does talk of factions and in them one can find the genuine, as well as the false. A bit like hot and cold. You can tell who is hot because they are not like the cold.

Blessings

I think the context around this verse makes it clear that the factions were destructive to the community. It was not about rich and poor, either.

 

[eazyduzit]

Hi Jerry. Let me confess up front that I didn’t read everything that came before this, but I’d like to ask What is your take on Christian (particularly Catholic) churches having altars?

Good point Peter. I know the history of Christian altars extends to early times,but beyond that, I don’t have a clue. The term “Lord’s table” would seem to exclude altars. The one purpose for an altar is to offer sacrifice, and that is the prime function of the priest. So could you explain what is being sacrificed on Catholic altars?

 

[eazyduzit]

On no MORE OFFERING fir sin we agree:thumbsup: BUT here’s what your NOT understanding: WHY is this?

BIBLE QUOTES:

Matt. 12: 30 “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.

Isaiah 43: 7 & 21 “And every one that calleth upon my name, I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, and made him. & This people have I formed for myself, [Genesis 1: 26-27] they shall shew forth my praise.”

Matthew 5:13-16
“You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot. You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house. Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father.”

Matthew 5:43-48
You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors* do the same? And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect”

1John.1 Verses 8 to 10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

1John.5 Verses 16 to 17 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

John.20 Verses 20 to 23"On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Jesus could not have chosen more precise words to teach what HE desires be taught, accepted and believed. Amen!

God Bless you,

Patrick

What am I not understanding? In quoting Mt 12:30 do you imply that I am against Christ, or anti-Christ, because I don’t agree with you?
I would not say that you are anti-Christ if you don’t agree with me. I do not question your love for Christ
Jesus also said, " for he that is not against us is for us" Lk 9:50.

I understand that your claim that only the apostles have the special power to forgive sin.However if you look at the beginning verse of the passage it is the disciples who are gathered behind locked doors. This includes more than the 12. We know from other mentions that it is around 70. It is not known exactly how many are present, but Jesus spoketo them all. Now look at v. 23. Note that it only part of the sentence, which begins in v.22 with “Receive ye the Holy Ghost:” thus making the promise in v. 23 dependant on receiving the HS. Now the purpose of the Spirit is not to convey special powers but to give us wisdom and discernment. and we all receive the Spirit. So then, with the Spirit, disciples are able to discern who has brought forth fruits worthy of repentance and who has not, if there be any question. Note that Peter is not singled out in any way. There is no special power given to Rome.

I have tried to build a logical explanation of what I believe for you. Does this seem Antichrist?

Shalom

Jerry

 

[PJM]

=guanophore;13490607]I Cor. 11, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, 19*for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.

St. Paul tells us that factions exist so that the genuine faith can be recognized.

**OK BUT not once as I INDICATED did GOD ever

APPROVE

TOLERATE

PERMIT

ACCEPT OR ALLOW THEM**

That is what I asked; not where they are found in the bible [for which I givr you credit]

 

[guanophore]

Good point Peter. I know the history of Christian altars extends to early times,but beyond that, I don’t have a clue. The term “Lord’s table” would seem to exclude altars. The one purpose for an altar is to offer sacrifice, and that is the prime function of the priest. So could you explain what is being sacrificed on Catholic altars?

Jesus is the High Priest and the sacrificial lamb. The bread and wine become His body and blood, and He gives Himself for the life of the world. The Lord’s Supper is based on the Passover anamnesis.

 

[PJM]

=benhur;13491009]Hi PJM,

To my knowledge there is no evidence that the apostles had confessional time or ‘heard’ confessions . We do have evidence that the early church confessed before the congregation.

Blessings

Great point my friend

Here’s what is missing: The last two verses in John 20 & 21 clearly teach that Cf. NOT Everything is in the bible. Which is supported by both history and logic.

HISTORY:

Immediately after the Ascension the Church began Her Mission: Cf. YOU GO! Teach the world ALL that I taught and commanded YOU! Mt. 28:18-20

The Bible was not fully authored until the end of the 1st Century or early 2nd Century; and was collected into a single book for another two hundred or so years after that. So AT BEST the Infant Church had only sparse use of use of a FEW isolated books that would later be in the bible for teaching and learning the faith.

What they DID have though was the OT Tradition of Word of Mouth from generation to generation AND the constant guidance of the Holy Spirit:

John 14:26
But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

& Jn. 15:26 & 16:13 as well.

LOGIC

The notion of sin was not a new or Jesus introduced concept; it carried over from Jewish Tradition:the annual Jewish day of atonement and the USE of Priest in the OT times for sin forgiveness:

Exodus 28:1
Take unto thee also Aaron thy brother with his sons, from among the children of Israel, that they may minister to me in the priest’ s office: Aaron, Nadab, and Abiu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.

Lev.5: 13 “Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the cereal offering." … Lev.6:7 “and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."

So because the use of Priest for sin forgiveness was NOT a new, NOT a novel concept; they simply did it, and didn’t make a big deal out of it.

John as a contemporary of the other Apostles certainly had a clear and precise understanding of sin and the essential need to Confession of it. It would be absurd if the Peter, James [the Greater] as closely knit as this threesome was; did not also share the same understanding.

1John.1 Verses 8 to 10: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

1John.5 Verses 16 to 17 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

John.20 Verses 20 to 23 “When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”

Matt. 18:14-18 Even so it is not the will of your Father, who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.
And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.”

God Bless you, and Thanks for sharing:thumbsup:

 

[Peter_J]

 

[guanophore]

I understand that your claim that only the apostles have the special power to forgive sin.However if you look at the beginning verse of the passage it is the disciples who are gathered behind locked doors. This includes more than the 12. We know from other mentions that it is around 70. It is not known exactly how many are present, but Jesus spoketo them all. Now look at v. 23. Note that it only part of the sentence, which begins in v.22 with “Receive ye the Holy Ghost:” thus making the promise in v. 23 dependant on receiving the HS. Now the purpose of the Spirit is not to convey special powers but to give us wisdom and discernment. and we all receive the Spirit. So then, with the Spirit, disciples are able to discern who has brought forth fruits worthy of repentance and who has not, if there be any question.

While there may have been as many as 120 in the upper room at Pentecost, Early in the morning on the first day of the week, the disciples were locked in the upper room for fear of the Jews. John 20:15

This reference is to the Apostles. In any case, the Apostles understood that they had been appointed to an “office” and that they were to pass this authority to others. This is why Matthias was chosen, the first successor to an Apostle. The priestly authority to forgive sins was passed through ordination.

Note that the gospel says “authority given to men” plural. The context would seem to call for a singular (to “a man” - Christ) unless Jesus meant to share this authority with His chosen.

“the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” (Matt. 9:6), which is why the Gospel writer himself explains that God “had given such authority to men” (Matt. 9:8).

Note that Peter is not singled out in any way. There is no special power given to Rome.

This comment is a mystery to me. Jesus authorized all the Apostles to forgive sins. Why would He single out Peter? The second part is even more of a mystery. What does any of this have to do with Rome?

 I have tried to build a logical explanation of what I believe for you. Does this seem Antichrist?

Shalom

Jerry

Not at all Jerry. YOu seem quite passionate and committed to your relationship with Christ. You are resisting the authority that He put in place over His flock.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Good point Peter. I know the history of Christian altars extends to early times,but beyond that, I don’t have a clue. The term “Lord’s table” would seem to exclude altars. The one purpose for an altar is to offer sacrifice, and that is the prime function of the priest. So could you explain what is being sacrificed on Catholic altars?

Hi Easyduzit

I haven’t been following along really well but I think your question hasn’t been answered.

Of course you’re referring to Levitical priests and the sacrificial system in Moses’ time.

I know FOR SURE that we, as catholics, do NOT re-sacrifice Jesus at every Mass as most protestants believe. However, I wasn’t sure about the complete history of the Mass although I know most of it.

So I thought I’d look it up but it’s a big job and going back to, let’s say Ignatius of Antioch (who knew John personally) is a bit of a chore.

I did find the following for Augustine, in the 300’s:

biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num30.htm

Or bing.com St. Augustine on the Eucharist

Did you know that catholics mix up a bit the sacrifice and the eucharist. I don’t know if protestants do this or if they see it as two totally different occurrences.

Anyway, it was an interesting read and it may be helpful to you. It does seem to me that Jesus was NOT being re-sacrificed even back then. So the altar would be the Lord’s Supper Table.

Priests is a different idea and I know your point, but I’ve never really gotten into it.

Fran

 

[guanophore]

Did you know that catholics mix up a bit the sacrifice and the eucharist.

Fran

I did not know this. How do catholics “mix these up”?

 

[frangiuliano115]

I did not know this. How do catholics “mix these up”?

When we speak of the eucharist, giving thanks, we also speak of the sacrifice for which we are thankful. Even in that link I posted for Augustine, the writer writes about both the Eucharist and the Sacrifice.

I was asking Eazyduzit if protestants do this or if they totally separate the two. You would also know this and I’d like to know the answer.

Jesus instituted the Eucharist, what was called Communion, at the Passover evening.
THEN he went to the cross the next morning. Two separate occurrences. These days we want to call the Mass the Eucharistic Celebration. Of course He said Do This In Memory Of Me, so what was the memory? The Cross. The “mixing up” is not meant to be accusatory.

Just wondering how protestants see this.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Hi Fran

I Do understand your position.

BUT your trying to redefine “truth” which I have pointed out to you; IS AS TRUTH MUST BE: singular per define issue.

you seem quite content is allowing others to believe what ever THEY CHOOSE [Not God] choose to believe. God is not OK with that, nor should WE be.

B]This is a CATHOLIC Form: we have amoral responsibility to actually TEACH what our God [Thee God] commands US to. Mt. 28:19-20.

I’m ALL for LOVE:thumbsup:

But Perfect Love; the kind Jesus as PERFECT God desires; even demands; has to be based on TRUTH. Anything else is muddled and unclear.

And I don’t take it personally that your trying to subvert what I teach. You and God can have that discussion:blush:

God Bless you,

Patrick

God Bless you
;

I do have difficulty keeping up with these posts. Just saw the above.

Far be it for me to proclaim teachings that are not authorized by the Catholic church. They may be understood in a slightly different way or there might be a differentiation in terms but I know catholic teachings well PJM.

This is where I strongly disagree with you. You say:

This is a CATHOLIC Form: we have amoral responsibility **to actually TEACH what our God [Thee God] **commands US to. Mt. 28:19-20.

To “teach what OUR God, THEE God commands”.

PJM, Do you feel like you OWN God??

We Catholics may understand some doctrine in a different way, or interpret some scripture differently, but we ARE serving the same God. I don’t think there are any JW here who believe that Jesus was only a prophet! In which case I would speak up VERY LOUDLY.

Fran

 

[Peter_J]

Hi Easyduzit

I haven’t been following along really well but I think your question hasn’t been answered.

Of course you’re referring to Levitical priests and the sacrificial system in Moses’ time.

I know FOR SURE that we, as catholics, do NOT re-sacrifice Jesus at every Mass as most protestants believe.

Agreed.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Jesus is the High Priest and the sacrificial lamb. The bread and wine become His body and blood, and He gives Himself for the life of the world. The Lord’s Supper is based on the Passover anamnesis.

Hi Guanophore

The Passover is one of my favorite concepts of salvation economy.

The last curse in Exodus and then the slaves flee Egypt.
The curse is for each first born to be sacrificed as the angel Passes Over each home.
The unblemished lamb must be sacrificed AND EATEN and the blood spread over the door post so that the angel will Pass Over and not kill the first born.

A prefiguring of Jesus. The First Born of the new creation.
The Perfect Lamb of God.
Who must be killed and eaten. (John 6)
Whose blood is poured over us so that we can be spared from the angel of death.

The slaves escaped Egypt
As we are slaves to Sin
They crossed the Red Sea
As we are wet with the water of baptism
They get to the other side
As we also cross over

To freedom!

Fran

 

[guanophore]

Hi Guanophore

The Passover is one of my favorite concepts of salvation economy.

Fran

I think one of the things that happened in the Reformation is that huge sects of Christians became disconnected from the roots of the Eucharist, born in the Passover. This is why they no longer hold to the nature of Communion as a sacrifice, or recognize the need for a priest.

 

[blanchardman]

My dear friends in Christ;

What if anything do you find stange anout the Catholic Church/ Catholic Faith?

God Bless you,

Patrick

This could become a long list so I will just post one. Erecting temples and shrines,and praying to, dead MEN.

 

[PJM]

=frangiuliano115;13490253]This is what I mean PJM –

eazyduzit is saying in his below post, exactly what we also believe!
Jesus was the last sacrifice. No more are necessary.
So what are we talking about here???
See?

Fran
ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc

Fran, if by implication you’re implying that:

1. Christ did it all [say “I believe” or some such words, and then I’m heaven bound?
2. That Sacramental Confession is not in an absolute sense necessary for the forgiveness of Mortal sin?

Then your beliefs DO NOT align with the Doctrinal Teachings of the RCC:shrug:

**1John.1 Verses 8 to 10: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
**
1John.5 Verses 16 to 17 **"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

John.20 Verses 20 to 23 “When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this,** he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”
**

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[WillyAL]

The relic thing. Venerating pieces of dead saints. Very, very strange.