What dear friend, do you find strange about Catholicism?

[adrift]

What I find a bit strange is how broken Roman Catholics are in the way they practice their faith. Now, I do not mean to offend but I attended the Catholic mass many times in my life and found that every time that I went, people were always trying to put on a big show; the fancy suits, the fancy shoes, and do not get me started on the womens’ perfume!

Not where I attend. Everyone dresses as if they are going to the flea market

Also, K find it odd that Catholics call their priests, ‘Father.’ I have NEVER accepted his practice because in the Bible, Jesus clearly states that we are not to call anyone by the name father except our biological father and of course God the Father.

Where is that exception? I don’t recall scripture like that. What do you call those who have taught you?
Call no Man Father

All in all, I respect Catholics as my Christian brothers and sisters, but I do not feel the Catholic Church is for me.

God Bless!

God Bless to you as well

 

[Peter_J]

Mary had the free will to say no??

What if she had said no?

I don’t usually think of that question, but now that I am thinking about it, I would look a few verses earlier: Zachariah “did not believe” (initially anyhow), but the promise that the angel made to him was not contingent on him believing.

Granted, I’m answering an easier question than the one you asked.

 

[frangiuliano115]

I don’t usually think of that question, but now that I am thinking about it, I would look a few verses earlier: Zachariah “did not believe” (initially anyhow), but the promise that the angel made to him was not contingent on him believing.

Granted, I’m answering an easier question than the one you asked.

Two different ideas, no?

Zacharias asked for a son. Mary didn’t.
Zacharias doubted because of age. He just was asking HOW he would know this was true.
Gabriel, the messenger of all important news, took away his ability to speak. Dangerous to ask God for signs. Jesus: The only sign you will have is the sign of Jonah. You shall not tempt the Lord your God (40 days in the desert, Jesus to satan).

Mary, a young girl, found favor with God. Which means he chose her. Then Gabriel TELLS her she will conceive and bear a son. Luke 1:31

But she also freely accepts: Luke 1:38 Behold the handmaiden of the Lord, be it done to me according to you word.

I’m not really asking anything. Here we’re presented with the problem of our free will and God’s Providence.

God knew from forever that He wanted Mary. He chose Mary. But Mary freely accepted.
But she couldn’t have said no.

This could keep one awake at night!

Fran

 

[Wannano]

Where is the scripture that Jesus said this privately?
/QUOTE]

You are right Adrift, I am speculating. I sort of assume that when Jesus was alone with the disciples they may have received more instruction and clarification but maybe they got no more than the crowds.

 

[frangiuliano115]

adrift;13525959:

Where is the scripture that Jesus said this privately?
/QUOTE]

You are right Adrift, I am speculating. I sort of assume that when Jesus was alone with the disciples they may have received more instruction and clarification but maybe they got no more than the crowds.

No Wannano.

You were right in the way you were thinking in your first post.

Nothing was said specifically about this occasion re Jesus explaining things privately to the apostles. However, He did say that He was willing to explain things to them - after telling the crowd a a parable He would then tell them more and explain it. For instance, the parable of the seeds and what where they landed meant.

I’m sure He explained many things to the apostles, they spent a lot of time together and He wanted them to understand well what His purpose was, how life should be lived, lessons that could be gleaned.
Mathew 13:10 to end

Also in Mark 4:21… He explains specifically to the apostles and a small group of disciples.

They only trouble they really had was understanding that He had to die. it was difficult for them to accept.

Fran

 

[adrift]

Adrift

It’s not so easy.

She could not have said no.

Read Luke 1:31

That doesn’t sound like a request to me.

I’m ending it here - it’s too off topic.

Fran

This is not Catholic teaching. Mary wasn’t cattle she was a fully human being which requires free will. You must also believe that Judas didn’t have free will when he betrayed Jesus?

CCC(my emphasis)
484 The Annunciation to Mary inaugurates “the fullness of time”,119 The time of the fulfilment of God’s promises and preparations. Mary **was invited **to conceive him in whom the “whole fullness of deity” would dwell “bodily”.120 The divine response to her question, “How can this be, since I know not man?”, was given by the power of the Spirit: "The Holy Spirit will come upon you."121
488 “God sent forth his Son”, but to prepare a body for him,125 he wanted the free co-operation of a creature. For this, from all eternity God chose for the mother of his Son a daughter of Israel, a young Jewish woman of Nazareth in Galilee, “a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary”:126

The Father of mercies willed that the Incarnation should be preceded by assent on the part of the predestined mother, so that just as a woman had a share in the coming of death, so also should a woman contribute to the coming of life.127
490 To become the mother of the Saviour, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role."132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as “full of grace”.133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace.
494 At the announcement that she would give birth to “the Son of the Most High” without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that “with God nothing will be impossible”: "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word."139 Thus, giving her consent to God’s word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God’s grace:140…
511 The Virgin Mary “co-operated through **free faith **and obedience in human salvation” (LG 56). **She uttered her yes **“in the name of all human nature” (St. Thomas Aquinas, S Th III, 30, 1). By her obedience she became the new Eve, mother of the living.

The idea that Mary could not say no is in my opinion a heresy.

 

[adrift]

You are right Adrift, I am speculating. I sort of assume that when Jesus was alone with the disciples they may have received more instruction and clarification but maybe they got no more than the crowds.

I am quite sure that Jesus told them much that isn’t recorded.

 

[adrift]

…Mary, a young girl, found favor with God. Which means he chose her. Then Gabriel TELLS her she will conceive and bear a son. Luke 1:31

But she also freely accepts: Luke 1:38 Behold the handmaiden of the Lord, be it done to me according to you word.

I’m not really asking anything. Here we’re presented with the problem of our free will and God’s Providence.

God knew from forever that He wanted Mary. He chose Mary. But Mary freely accepted.
But she couldn’t have said no.

This could keep one awake at night!

Fran

This is contradictory either she couldn’t say no or she could freely accept. If she couldn’t say no, she couldn’t be free to accept. It cannot be both. As the CCC states
God wanted the free co-operation of a creature. There cannot be co-operation if you have no choice.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano;13526369:

No Wannano.

You were right in the way you were thinking in your first post.

Nothing was said specifically about this occasion re Jesus explaining things privately to the apostles. However, He did say that He was willing to explain things to them - after telling the crowd a a parable He would then tell them more and explain it. For instance, the parable of the seeds and what where they landed meant.

I’m sure He explained many things to the apostles, they spent a lot of time together and He wanted them to understand well what His purpose was, how life should be lived, lessons that could be gleaned.
Mathew 13:10 to end

Also in Mark 4:21… He explains specifically to the apostles and a small group of disciples.

They only trouble they really had was understanding that He had to die. it was difficult for them to accept.

Fran

Thanks Fran, I like to think that the 12 had their theology together. They surely had time to intimately ask questions and I would think Jesus would want His chosen to be informed correctly about what He was teaching. I think many misunderstood Him and many wanted to hear something different than what He was presenting.

 

[adrift]

Two different ideas, no?

No

Both pregnancies was above normal human ability. One because of age the other because of the lack of knowing a man.

Zacharias asked for a son. Mary didn’t.
Zacharias doubted because of age. He just was asking HOW he would know this was true
Gabriel, the messenger of all important news, took away his ability to speak. Dangerous to ask God for signs. Jesus: The only sign you will have is the sign of Jonah. You shall not tempt the Lord your God (40 days in the desert, Jesus to satan)…

He wasn’t asking how he doubted the words of Gabriel

Mary, a young girl, found favor with God. Which means he chose her. Then Gabriel TELLS her she will conceive and bear a son. Luke 1:31

If he was telling her she would not have answered with a yes as there would be no reason for her to answer at all.

But she also freely accepts: Luke 1:38 Behold the handmaiden of the Lord, be it done to me according to you word.

She cannot freely accept if there is no choice, no free will.

I’m not really asking anything. Here we’re presented with the problem of our free will and God’s Providence.

God knew from forever that He wanted Mary. He chose Mary. But Mary freely accepted.
But she couldn’t have said no.

This could keep one awake at night!

Fran

You have fallen into the trap that because God knows our choices that somehow means we don’t have free choice.

 

[Faith1960]

I strugge with the concept of the Immaculate Conception.

Also that Catholics in Church don’t sing with more gusto. It’s pretty flat sometimes, such a shame, at least it is where i go…

Protestant churches sing with gusto!

 

[Faith1960]

Now, I do not mean to offend but I attended the Catholic mass many times in my life and found that every time that I went, people were always trying to put on a big show; the fancy suits, the fancy shoes, and do not get me started on the womens’ perfume!

The many times you went to Mass must’ve been only during Christmas and Easter.

 

[Peter_J]

Mary wasn’t cattle she was a fully human being which requires free will.

Is this a typo? (If not it seems like a pretty inflammatory strawman argument – I’ve never heard of a single Christian group that denies that Mary was a fully human being.)

 

[adrift]

Is this a typo? (If not it seems like a pretty inflammatory strawman argument – I’ve never heard of a single Christian group that denies that Mary was a fully human being.)

What have you been following the post of frangiuliano115? It is her argument that Mary could not say no which denies her free will. Do you believe that God forced Mary to be Jesus’ mother without the ability to say no my statement is neither inflammatory nor a strawman argument.

 

[fbl9]

frangiuliano115;13526448:

Thanks Fran, I like to think that the 12 had their theology together. They surely had time to intimately ask questions and I would think Jesus would want His chosen to be informed correctly about what He was teaching. I think many misunderstood Him and many wanted to hear something different than what He was presenting.

The issue occurs when some one speculates what Jesus told his disciples and makes that (the speculation) a basis for their own teaching.

 

[Peter_J]

If he was telling her she would not have answered with a yes as there would be no reason for her to answer at all.

Hi adrift. I haven’t read many of your posts, so admittedly I don’t really know your religious leanings. But having read the above (I saw it was in response to Post 760) I have to ask: Do you believe that the Angel Gabriel didn’t tell Mary that she would conceive and bear a son?

 

[rcwitness]

Not sure what zero belief is, for even the devil believes.

Zero belief, in the context of Jesus, is to never consider His teachings as from God. Apparently, these who were called disciples, believed he was a teacher sent from God. But they doubted enough to turn from the “stumbling block” He announced to them.

Jesus says they did not believe from the beginning. Obviously they believed something at the beginning, but not what Jesus was looking for. I disagree if one were to say they believed up to the discourse.They certainly followed up to the discourse but Jesus says they did not believe from the beginning.

Yes ben, I am not trying to argue with this. Their belief was very shallow… their faith was in themselves and seeking a “bread king” to make demands of Him.

But you are right to bring up the prophetic. I would say primarily it was of His death (and ascension) and secondarily of Eucahristing . First things first, for as you state, all would be new, and in the future. The main thrust of the discourse is not to teach about the future, in and of itself, but to use it to separate the sheep from the goats during this formative time of our foundational disciples.

Thank you! This we agree… that Jesus was giving something non-understandable, yet something that He would fullfill.

This is also why John does not record the Last Supper… He referenced it already.

But, you should know that I always try to keep the Sacrament as close in heart to the purpose underneath it as possible… that is the whole duty of them!

 

[adrift]

Hi adrift. I haven’t read many of your posts, so admittedly I don’t really know your religious leanings. But having read the above (I saw it was in response to Post 760) I have to ask: Do you believe that the Angel Gabriel didn’t tell Mary that you would conceive and bear a son?

It actually was an answer to 740
The Angel Gabriel made that announcement.

Do you believe that Mary had no free will that she couldn’t say no to God?
I have already quoted from the CCC which states she said Yes. If she could not say no than she couldn’t say yes. Eve using her free will said no to God, Mary using her free will said yes becoming the New Eve but if she couldn’t say no than she had no free will.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano;13526527:

The issue occurs when some one speculates what Jesus told his disciples and makes that (the speculation) a basis for their own teaching.

No arguement with that. Same issue occurs when a church creates a practice from an idea or philosophy that has no direct biblical reference.

 

[Peter_J]

Certainly, on the most basic literal level, we can say that Mary could have said anything, be it “no” or “sorry I don’t speak Hebrew”. I don’t believe that’s what we’re discussing here.