What dear friend, do you find strange about Catholicism?

[benhur]

What is speculation about " This is my body"? Can’t get plainer than that!

Though the wording is plain it still requires first a linguistic decision for what is also plain is that the bread and wine are still apparently ‘bread and wine,’ and the Lord’s body and blood are still intact.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

I know your refusal to believe the RP is different from that of the Gnostics.

RP, and even symbolic, or spiritual view, , is different from that of the Gnostics who believed Christ died not in the flesh.

My point is that Ignatius is asserting this tenet of the Apostolic faith.

Agree. His words, just as the Lord’s words, can be taken literally or figuratively. I think linguistics do not require figurative speech to explicitly announce itself.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Because God Himself teaches: I AM the way & I AM thee Truth; what Father shares is correct. Grace DOES depend on Truth for GOD IS Truth. Amen? Amen.

Not sure, for this again is figurative speech. Of course God is the giver of grace, but it seems strange to then say “God” is then a prerequisite of grace. I think the priest quote is using “truth” in the more understood use of the term, as in that the church, for example, is the pillar of truth.

This fact of an absolutely necessary relationship between “truth and grace” is born out in the multiplicity and variety of Protestant churches and differing sets of faith beliefs.

Can you read that as relationship between ‘God and grace’ and God must come first ? I see the truth that grace allows any church to see God and His truth. But yes, in the end churches are graced differently, and have varying degrees of light, and power, and Christ likeness .

Because Faith stem from and must flow through TRUTH [always singular per defined issue]; a lack of faith stems from a lack of grace.

Ok ."Faith cometh by hearing and that by the word of God (truth), and yes it is a gift, and by grace.

God’s Faith has to be “one” because even God cannot hold contrary; often contradictory positions on the same defined issues.

Yes, as per your singular issue.

Blessings

 

[adrift]

… and the Lord’s body and blood are still intact.

Blessings

I hope that I am misreading your intent here. The Eucharist is not cannibalism which this comment would lead you to believe it was. Jesus is present Body, Blood Soul and Divinity and just like He was intact as He went through a locked door He remains intact as we consume Him.
Jesus either misled the disciples when He said that For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed or they understood correctly.

 

[adrift]

…’ and the Lord’s body and blood are still intact.

Blessings

I hope that I am misreading your intent here. The Eucharist is not cannibalism which this comment would lead you to believe it was. Jesus is present Body, Blood Soul and Divinity and just like He was intact as He went through a locked door He remains intact as we consume Him.
Jesus either misled the disciples when He said that For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed or they understood correctly.

 

[Peter_J]

You MUST believe in the Spirit giving life in His Eucharist to believe a change from ordinary food to becomes Spiritually beneficial, because there is nothing which gives evidence to the carnal senses that any change has occurred.

+1

 

[rcwitness]

You MUST believe in the Spirit giving life in His Eucharist to believe a change from ordinary food to becomes Spiritually beneficial, because there is nothing which gives evidence to the carnal senses that any change has occurred.

It is the SUPERnatural nature of the Breaking of Bread which requires our attention to His physical Incarnation, sacrificial death, and power over that death (EVEN FOR US WHO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW) that believers are nurished by.

We aren’t converted by His Eucharist, but rather drawn by He who converts us to His Eucharist.

Yet, mere belief in His Eucharist having Christmas present is not the goal, but partaking with a clear conscience. This is His very personal and very challenging measure.

 

[guanophore]

Though the wording is plain it still requires first a linguistic decision for what is also plain is that the bread and wine are still apparently ‘bread and wine,’ and the Lord’s body and blood are still intact.

Blessings

I agree, which is why it would seem that what the Apostles believed, and what they passed down to their disciples would be important.

RP, and even symbolic, or spiritual view, , is different from that of the Gnostics who believed Christ died not in the flesh. Agree. His words, just as the Lord’s words, can be taken literally or figuratively. I think linguistics do not require figurative speech to explicitly announce itself.

Blessings

I think there was something more than just the denial that Christ died in the flesh, because the Last Supper, where Jesus demonstrated for them what He wanted them to do, he had not yet died. Taking that as an event by itself, one would have to deny what He is saying. The bread was really not His body…etc.

It is the same as saying that, when God made the universe, he said “let there be light” but it was only “figurative”.

Not sure, for this again is figurative speech.

How did you come to this conclusion?

I think I am beginning to realize that this is all just a subjective exercise on your part…

 

[PJM]

Not sure, for this again is figurative speech. Of course God is the giver of grace, but it seems strange to then say “God” is then a prerequisite of grace. I think the priest quote is using “truth” in the more understood use of the term, as in that the church, for example, is the pillar of truth.

Can you read that as relationship between ‘God and grace’ and God must come first ? I see the truth that grace allows any church to see God and His truth. But yes, in the end churches are graced differently, and have varying degrees of light, and power, and Christ likeness .

Ok ."Faith cometh by hearing and that by the word of God (truth), and yes it is a gift, and by grace.
Yes, as per your singular issue.

Blessings

“God” is then a prerequisite of grace

Hi Ben, please help me out here.

Are you suggesting God is NOT thee prerequisite for grace? What am I not understanding you to say here?

God Bless,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

It is the SUPERnatural nature of the Breaking of Bread which requires our attention to His physical Incarnation, sacrificial death, and power over that death (EVEN FOR US WHO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW) that believers are nurished by.

We aren’t converted by His Eucharist, but rather drawn by He who converts us to His Eucharist.

Yet, mere belief in His Eucharist having Christmas present is not the goal, but partaking with a clear conscience. This is His very personal and very challenging measure.

We aren’t converted by His Eucharist, but rather drawn by He who converts us to His Eucharist

.

Haven’t had my 2nd cup of coffee yet, so it’s likely JUST me:blush:

Would you please offer a more detailed explanation of this thought:shrug:

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[rcwitness]

.

Haven’t had my 2nd cup of coffee yet, so it’s likely JUST me:blush:

Would you please offer a more detailed explanation of this thought:shrug:

God Bless you,

Patrick

Sure… which point in particular?

 

[rcwitness]

.

Haven’t had my 2nd cup of coffee yet, so it’s likely JUST me:blush:

Would you please offer a more detailed explanation of this thought:shrug:

God Bless you,

Patrick

Oh… just realized you did specify which thought of mine you wanted me to explain.

I said this in light of two factors. One being that Jesus alludes us to His Eucharist by raising the point of His Father FIRST drawing us. Secondly we, who Commune in Him are already Believers who have received the initial forgiveness of sin through Baptism.

So, it is believing Christians, who have been Baptized in the full ministry of the Gospel who eat at this table. No one who was at the discourse in John 6 had yet received the full ministry or been Baptized with water or His Holy Spirit.

Jesus was primarily speaking of after Pentecost when we would eat His Body and Blood and the present belief which was necessary to keep them until it’s manifestation. The 12 were given the Supper and priestly commission on the night He was delivered to His Passion.

 

[TonyBS]

.

Haven’t had my 2nd cup of coffee yet, so it’s likely JUST me:blush:

Would you please offer a more detailed explanation of this thought:shrug:

God Bless you,

Patrick

Patrick - What I find strange is most of what is posted above. From a lover of Christ outside the confines of these rituals, I must say how people see these are quite bizzar

I would put a question to you. How would it be seen that a person who has not and will not submit to all this doctrinal ritual, but submits to and serves His life in Christ.

Example. A Jew this very day reads the Bible, sees Christ message and His sacrifice for our Sin and gives all to Christ and would drop at the feet of Christ and ask to also give their life. He would spend the remainder of His given life Teaching, praising and living for Jesus the Christ and the Glory of God so others to may share in this. This person needs no ritual his heart connects spiritually to Christ, he feeds of the Knowledge and Love of His Beauty, His Sacrifice and His Promise. He falls to the ground each day and confesses his complete servitude to that love and His inability to render befitting service. He immerses Himself in the Water of knowledge and the Fire of the Love of God through Christ.

This narrative could continue, the point clear enough for a considered answer to be given.

God bless and regards Tony

 

[rcwitness]

I would put a question to you. How would it be seen that a person who has not and will not submit to all this doctrinal ritual, but submits to and serves His life in Christ.

What “doctrinal ritual” are you referring to?

Are you suggesting, in your example, that a genuine believer could be genuine yet willfully reject Baptism and/or Communion? Or that He could Teach what is from Christ while rejecting the principles of Catholic doctrine?

Firstly, how did he aquire a Canon of Scripture and the confidence that it is no more and no less than what God has inspired as Scripture?

 

[guanophore]

Patrick - What I find strange is most of what is posted above. From a lover of Christ outside the confines of these rituals, I must say how people see these are quite bizzar

I would put a question to you. How would it be seen that a person who has not and will not submit to all this doctrinal ritual, but submits to and serves His life in Christ.

Example. A Jew this very day reads the Bible, sees Christ message and His sacrifice for our Sin and gives all to Christ and would drop at the feet of Christ and ask to also give their life. He would spend the remainder of His given life Teaching, praising and living for Jesus the Christ and the Glory of God so others to may share in this. This person needs no ritual his heart connects spiritually to Christ, he feeds of the Knowledge and Love of His Beauty, His Sacrifice and His Promise. He falls to the ground each day and confesses his complete servitude to that love and His inability to render befitting service. He immerses Himself in the Water of knowledge and the Fire of the Love of God through Christ.

This narrative could continue, the point clear enough for a considered answer to be given.

God bless and regards Tony

a person such as this will always be drawn by the Holy Spirit into the Church, founded by Christ, through which He intends to save every person He created.

 

[TonyBS]

a person such as this will always be drawn by the Holy Spirit into the Church, founded by Christ, through which He intends to save every person He created.

Symbolocally yes, in reality No, this is not the case and many can prove this to be so.

The words above are mine and true.

Regards Tony

 

[guanophore]

Symbolocally yes, in reality No, this is not the case and many can prove this to be so.

The words above are mine and true.

Regards Tony

No, Tony, God does not “symbolically” draw people to Himself. He does this actually. He founded One Church, and through His Holy Bride, He saves all those who choose Him.

I don’t see how you can “prove” who is saved and who his not. That is up to God, and only he knows the heart.

 

[TonyBS]

No, Tony, God does not “symbolically” draw people to Himself. He does this actually. He founded One Church, and through His Holy Bride, He saves all those who choose Him.

I don’t see how you can “prove” who is saved and who his not. That is up to God, and only he knows the heart.

God bless all Regards Tony

 

[spedteacherita]

a person such as this will always be drawn by the Holy Spirit into the Church, founded by Christ, through which He intends to save every person He created.

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by TonyBS
I would put a question to you. How would it be seen that a person who has not and will not submit to all this doctrinal ritual, but submits to and serves His life in Christ.

I will second that question.

But that aside, Tony, I would by no means tell your hypothetical person “No, you can’t do that”; but he/she isn’t a Christian – or, at least, a Trinitarian Christian (which is generally what we mean by Christian).