What dear friend, do you find strange about Catholicism?

[adrift]

I can only continue to beg you not to cause a scandal by denying the Teachings of the Church. For a catechist to claim that the infallible teachings are “no longer valid” is very distressing, and misrepresents the faith.

Your are right on as the post from TC shows.

Bingo…that is what I was getting at.

That is one of the reasons I don’t feel comfortable, or feel unwelcome as a non-Catholic to go to Mass with my family.

My observation/experience is what appears as exclusiveness vs. inclusiveness is different/confusing to me.

 

[adrift]

I’ve been thinking about it and here is my conclusion: I am a baptised and confirmed Catholic in good standing with the Church. I have every right to be here!

I have gone back and read your post. I do not see the problem:shrug:

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

The topic please

 

[spedteacherita]

From 4 different Lutheran synods. 4 different opinions. Okay.

Catholics are supposed to be ONE holy, catholic and apostolic church. Not 4 different churches.

We have problems understanding very basic things like what saves us. Is Mary supposed to be worshipped? etc. I was on a thread when i first got here in July that was about how you MUST be devoted to Mary to be saved.

So, it’s like we’re all under this big umbrella, but we don’t agree. I know priests who don’t agree with each other. I know people who read the same pp from the CCC and come up with different answers.

I think it’s okay to have differing opinions on some questions. Like, what does it mean to keep holy the Sabbath - but on what saves us?? There are catholics here who believe their own good works save them - and they think this is what the catholic church teaches.

Fran

Mary is my stumbling block. I love her as the person who bore Jesus and brought him up teaching him as he grew. But I just cannot see her importance within the earliest church fathers. I understand how Catholics “pray” to her and the saints for intervention but Christ was the one who bore our sins on the cross so that we were redeemed once and for all - He is our propitiation and advocates for us to the Father. Also, the Holy Spirit knows our deepest concerns and needs and without having to find the words He takes our concerns to Jesus and the Father.

We know this is a difference between some Protestants and Catholics but until I’m shown from early, primitive church history that the dogmas about Mary were common to the early 'Christians, I have to continue to believe as I do.

Thanks for asking the question and allowing us to discuss this without getting upset with each other’s views.

Happy Advent season! Come, Lord Jesus!

Rita

 

[spedteacherita]

Yes! This for me is really strange - I mean I’ve read people’s posts that talk about how their medal or scapular touch a relic of someone and that it was “blessed” or it seemed like it had special “powers” to help them. Not sure what it is that helps them.

I saw a video of a huge statue of Mary being brought to the front of the church. As it turned right, in front of the pew it became unbalanced and fell onto the floor. There was a huge gasp and people crying because it fell…

I have also seen videos of Catholics walking on their knees toward either a statue of Mary or some relic. Isn’t that considered a type of worship?

As (name removed by moderator) stated, no disrespect is intended at all. I just want to answer Patrick’s op.

God bless your Advent season!

Rita

 

[meltzerboy]

Mary is my stumbling block. I love her as the person who bore Jesus and brought him up teaching him as he grew. But I just cannot see her importance within the earliest church fathers. I understand how Catholics “pray” to her and the saints for intervention but Christ was the one who bore our sins on the cross so that we were redeemed once and for all - He is our propitiation and advocates for us to the Father. Also, the Holy Spirit knows our deepest concerns and needs and without having to find the words He takes our concerns to Jesus and the Father.

We know this is a difference between some Protestants and Catholics but until I’m shown from early, primitive church history that the dogmas about Mary were common to the early 'Christians, I have to continue to believe as I do.

Thanks for asking the question and allowing us to discuss this without getting upset with each other’s views.

Happy Advent season! Come, Lord Jesus!

Rita

In what sense do you mean Jesus “advocates for us to the Father” and the Holy Spirit “takes our concerns to Jesus and the Father”? If all three Persons are one G-d and not separate from one another, can this advocacy be divided between Jesus and the Holy Spirit as if they are separate Beings from each other and from the Father? In keeping with the title of the OP, this does sound strange to me.

 

[meltzerboy]

Hi Meltzerboy

I checked out the link but it was too long and I have a feeling it’s not what you’re looking for.

Sacrifice Economy. The book of Mathew ties Judaism to Christianity. Or I should say the Mosaic Law with Jesus. or the Mosaic Covenant with the New Covenant (Jesus).

Why Jesus as sacrifice was necessary is a good question.

I have to string some stuff together and it’s too late here.

I’m thinking of the fall of Adam.

Cain and Abel. Cain’s sacrifice was not accepted.

Noah. The flood kills everyone. Noah saves his family and thus mankind. Noah could prefigure Jesus or some like to say that the ark prefigures Jesus, which makes more sense. All of sinful humanity died but the righteous were saved somehow.

The Hebrew slaves in Egypt. They needed to be freed. They crossed the Red Sea, water, baptism, dying to come out of the water alive in Christ.

Exodus 11 to 13 ( I think) The last plague. The first-born will die when the angel of death passes over. But the blood of the lamb on the door post will save those inside. Blood. Salvation. Jesus is prefigured here.

Animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of sin. unintentional sin, as you said in a different thread. The sin nature, concupiscence - unintentional sin needs forgiveness. it’s so grave that only God could make a big enough sacrifice.

Mathew was Jewish. He saw Jesus as the Lamb of God. Thus the final sacrifice for our sin and sins. Paul studied everything for 3 years before starting to write. He put everything together, studied all the scriptures / O.T. / Jesus as sacrifice.

Setting up the Kingdomof God on earth was also a big part of Jesus’ mission. “You must believe to see the kingdom.” Human nature keeps getting in the way though.

My thoughts are jumbled, but the base is there.

Fran

This is helpful to me, Fran. Thank you.

 

[spedteacherita]

My comment refers not only to Catholicism but to Christianity in general. Where does the belief that we humans need to be “saved” come from, and does the belief mean saved from damnation or hell or something in addition to that? Judaism does not believe in salvation in the Christian sense of saved from damnation. Neither does it believe that following the Law “saves” since we are not damned in the first place. Rather, it believes that by practicing the Law (as best we can), we have the opportunity to lead a better, more productive, and more meaningful life while doing G-d’s Will. We don’t believe we are in need of a Savior (which is not the meaning of Messiah according to the Hebrew word) for our sins since we have the power to atone for them and we are not damned by them.

IOW, what I am wondering is when, how, and why did Christianity interpret the teachings of the Hebrew Bible in terms of a salvation religion?

God promised a Savior in Genesis 3:15 after Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree after they were told not to. We see many prophecies of Christ in Isaiah as well which actually happened with Jesus. We learn more in the New Testament where Christ quotes from the Old Testament as well.

God bless, Melzerboy!

Rita

 

[spedteacherita]

Good point. Is it too late for me to make my answer to the OP: “What I find strange about Catholicism is that some people don’t want to join it.”?

 

[adrift]

Yes! This for me is really strange - I mean I’ve read people’s posts that talk about how their medal or scapular touch a relic of someone and that it was “blessed” or it seemed like it had special “powers” to help them. Not sure what it is that helps them.

I saw a video of a huge statue of Mary being brought to the front of the church. As it turned right, in front of the pew it became unbalanced and fell onto the floor. There was a huge gasp and people crying because it fell…

I have also seen videos of Catholics walking on their knees toward either a statue of Mary or some relic. Isn’t that considered a type of worship?

As (name removed by moderator) stated, no disrespect is intended at all. I just want to answer Patrick’s op.

God bless your Advent season!

Rita

It is late and I am ready for bed so forgive if this isn’t a complete answer. You ask if this is a type of worship. Worship has changed meaning over the years. Todays meaning is adoration to God. I can understand one looking on would wonder but unless you can know their intention, that is they regard Mary as a god then no this isn’t a type of worship.

 

[spedteacherita]

In what sense do you mean Jesus “advocates for us to the Father” and the Holy Spirit “takes our concerns to Jesus and the Father”? If all three Persons are one G-d and not separate from one another, can this advocacy be divided between Jesus and the Holy Spirit as if they are separate Beings from each other and from the Father? In keeping with the title of the OP, this does sound strange to me.

God is three persons in one - something that is difficult to understand. He is God, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent - there is nothing He can’t do and He loves us so much that He uses Jesus (the Word) and the Holy Spirit to intercede for us. Here I’ve given 2 New Testament passages that speaks to both persons and what they do for us.

1 John 2:1-2

1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.…

Romans 25-27

25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. 26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Blessings,

Rita

 

[meltzerboy]

God is three persons in one - something that is difficult to understand. He is God, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent - there is nothing He can’t do and He loves us so much that He uses Jesus (the Word) and the Holy Spirit to intercede for us. Here I’ve given 2 New Testament passages that speaks to both persons and what they do for us.

Blessings,

Rita

Thank you for the information, Rita.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Mary is my stumbling block. I love her as the person who bore Jesus and brought him up teaching him as he grew. But I just cannot see her importance within the earliest church fathers. I understand how Catholics “pray” to her and the saints for intervention but Christ was the one who bore our sins on the cross so that we were redeemed once and for all - He is our propitiation and advocates for us to the Father. Also, the Holy Spirit knows our deepest concerns and needs and without having to find the words He takes our concerns to Jesus and the Father.

We know this is a difference between some Protestants and Catholics but until I’m shown from early, primitive church history that the dogmas about Mary were common to the early 'Christians, I have to continue to believe as I do.

Thanks for asking the question and allowing us to discuss this without getting upset with each other’s views.

Happy Advent season! Come, Lord Jesus!

Rita

Rita,

Romans 8:26
One of the works of the H.S.!

Happy Advent (the happening!) to you too.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

In what sense do you mean Jesus “advocates for us to the Father” and the Holy Spirit “takes our concerns to Jesus and the Father”? If all three Persons are one G-d and not separate from one another, can this advocacy be divided between Jesus and the Holy Spirit as if they are separate Beings from each other and from the Father? In keeping with the title of the OP, this does sound strange to me.

Yeah. The Trinity. Who can understand it?

But Jesus is our advocate. Because He stands in our defense with God. Sinful, wretched creatures that we are - who can stand the brilliance of God Almighty? So, He’s our atty - the one who sacrificed Himself for us so God could love us through Him. No One Comes To The Father Except Through Me.

And each person of the trinity has their own particular work. If you’re really interested just ask. I’ve taught this to kids for years and still have my notes.

The Father has specific work
ditto for the Son and the Holy Spirit

Fran

 

[rcwitness]

It is my take that He came to fulfill the Law and that He was the ultimate sacrifice. I tend to beleive that He did not come to start a new religion , rather to change men’s hearts and make His dwelling there.

I am comforted that you say these things. You are very Catholic at heart. And if a practicing Catholic argues with this faith of yours, then they have issues.

The only thing worth debating is the definition of the term “religion”. If you don’t believe Christianity is a religion, then I understand your point. I think it’s sad that Christianity has been divided into separate religions. Personally, I don’t think they are different religions if they are valid Christian.

 

[PJM]

As I understand it infant baptism puts certain obligations on the Catholic parent to teach and “push” the child to receive the varied sacraments of the faith. But as the child matures the obligations that come with Catholicism become his/her’s, as far as my understanding of these things go.

Obligations such as Sunday mass, Catholic marriage requirements, confirmation, etc.

Friend t" inventedhese ARE God’s rules, not something 'The Church

 

[Stilldreamn]

Goodness. That’s not strange at all, Fran. Look at Lutherans.
Put 4 Lutherans from 4 different Lutheran synods in a room, and you’ll get 5 different opinions.

Jon

And then 2 synods will merge and dissenters will birth a new micro-synod. I think the Catholic church is remarkable for unity despite such a diversity of members.

 

[PJM]

=TC3033;13475988]I don’t mean fellowship within Mass, but outside of the Church. I don’t feel welcome to the Church both inside and outside.

Why would I not be invited to participate in these outside fellowships. Me and my asterisk is in the directory, but when it comes festival time at the small Church we attend all of my extended family (many of which attend Mass maybe twice per year, and I attend far more regularly) all get their invites and where the Church would like them to volunteer and I am not asked to be involved. Why would I not be asked to be involved in the fellowship, but all of the Catholics are?

I saw that said “All Are Welcome”, but in my experience I’ve not found that to be true. From my experience it is quite different to me for the Church to seem so exclusionary vs. inclusionary.

IMHO, I would disagree that Protestant service would put fellowship before God, but that is a whole different can of worms I’d rather not open. This isn’t the correct thread.

I’m going to catch flack for saying this BUT

The female gender among us don’t usually wait to “be asked”. There more likely to volunteer. Or at least seek investment:thumbsup:

While we male gender folks, for some unknown reason with to be asked.

My friend, rather than feeling sorry for yourself. If you want to get involved; then GET INVOLVED.

Talk to your Priest or DRE, and the head of the Parish Council. ASK WHAT CAN I DO!

I’ve never seen a parish large or small that does not have needs. Discover them and then DO SOMETHING about it:thumbsup:

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

=(name removed by moderator);13476028]Relics.

I find the whole cult of relics strange.

I have this mental image of, on the last day, when our souls are joined to our glorified bodies, the relics of the saints flying all over the dang place to join back together. DUCK, St. Anselmo’s third bicuspid might hit you in the eye!!!

j/k, no disrespect intended but seriously, relics, just ewwwww.

GOOGLE
The history of Catholic relics

You may be surprised at what you discover

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=Peter J;13476265]Good point. Is it too late for me to make my answer to the OP: “What I find strange about Catholicism is that some people don’t want to join it.”?

I agree that IS strange; UNTIL we grasp that God is in charge.

Because Protestantism by its very nature is designed to Compete with God; Christ specifically; and what Christ did; what Christ desires and what even the bible attest too.

Many; even most of them just don’t 'Get it" because God has blocked there understanding until such time they turn to God in humility and ask:

Lord; am I following you in the manner you desire me too:shrug:

Matthew 11:15
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew 10:14
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet.

Mt. 13: 10-15
And his disciples came and said to him: Why speakest thou to them in parables?

Who answered and said to them: Because to you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven: but to them it is not given. For he that hath, to him shall be given, and he shall abound: but he that hath not, from him shall be taken away that also which he hath. Therefore do I speak to them in parables: because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And the prophecy of Isaias is fulfilled in them, who saith: By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand: and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive. For the heart of this people is grown gross, and with their ears they have been dull of hearing, and their eyes they have shut: lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.".

Quite often it is not even a truly culpable ignorance; but one associated with the competing faith they choose to be associated with.

But God commits Himself to offer SUFFICIENT grace to all, so that “all” MIGHT be saved.

They should pray muac as we too ought to do