What dear friend, do you find strange about Catholicism?

[PJM]

Mary is my stumbling block. I love her as the person who bore Jesus and brought him up teaching him as he grew. But I just cannot see her importance within the earliest church fathers. I understand how Catholics “pray” to her and the saints for intervention but Christ was the one who bore our sins on the cross so that we were redeemed once and for all - He is our propitiation and advocates for us to the Father. Also, the Holy Spirit knows our deepest concerns and needs and without having to find the words He takes our concerns to Jesus and the Father.

We know this is a difference between some Protestants and Catholics but until I’m shown from early, primitive church history that the dogmas about Mary were common to the early 'Christians, I have to continue to believe as I do.

Thanks for asking the question and allowing us to discuss this without getting upset with each other’s views.

Rita

MY dear friend Rita, this reply is for BOTH of your Mary concerns

Two issues seem evident here:

A lack of right understanding

& a lack of faith

Here are a few sites that you’d do very well to check out. As space is limited here on CAF; I can’t copy and paste the information for you

http://www.piercedhearts.org/hearts_jesus_mary/heart_mary/mary_early_church_miravalle.htm

http://www.earlychristians.org/inde...votion-to-the-virgin-mary-in-the-early-church

I have yet to find a Protestant who understands just WHY we Catholics Venerate and pray THROUGH Mary and the Saints. I have posted MANY times on this topic.

Jn 19: 25-28
“”Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen.

When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own. Afterwards, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said: I thirst.

What is being taught here?

1 Mary the Mother of Jesus [Lk 1: 26-35] and John the beloved Apostles were standing with the Crucified Christ.

2 Jesus, very near death recognizes both “Mother” and John the Beloved

3 Jesus mere moments before expiring shouts: “I THIRST!”

4 It is evident that given the condition of Christ when he proclaimed this; that he was not asking for a drink. He had in fact declined one earlier. So WHAT does “I THIRST” mean?

5 It means that despite [or perhaps because of all the he had already done] all he had endured without compliant; knowing that death was very near desires to Do even more to aid the salvation of Souls.

6 NOTE Christ felt compelled to do MORE. Thus the foolish notion that Christ HAS already done it ALL for our salvation… ect. Is obliterated by facts.

7 so just How is the “More” manifested? It is made manifest in 3 way’s

[1] By having established and empowering His church: “AS My Father has sent ME; so too; I now send YOU; my Apostles. Jn 18:18 & 20:21

[2] By instituting the Seven Sacraments as a source of Sacramental Grace: 5 of which exist to aid us in meriting our personal salvation; always a process. Baptism; Confession, Eucharist & and Last Rites, and Holy Orders; needed to make the Sacraments possible to us.

[3] Jesus just before Dying give His Mother Mary to the world; knowing full-well how much influence She would have in leading Souls to Him. Jn 19:27

These 3 gifts from Christ are the most powerful, efficaous, meaningful and effective “tools” Christ left us to aid and to direct our path to heaven.

ALL prayers are intended to END with God!
Because Mary & the Saints are in the Devine Presence; they are in an ideal position to intercede with Christ on our behalf. Mary and the Saints are a part of the “Communion of saints” which consist of:

**All the “Church Militant” [the members of “thee Church” still on earth]

All the souls in Purgatory who are assuredly heaven bound

& Mary and all the Saints in Heaven**

It is this bond of unity that motivates them to intercede on our behalf. ALL of this is as God perceived it and desired.

“Redemption” that you mentioned is NOT Salvation. No, Christ did “Redeem” ALL of humanity; past; present and future. ALL, not just some.

A correct understanding of this term is: From Fr. Hardon’s Dictionary

REDEMPTION “The salvation of ALL] humanity by Jesus Christ. Literally, to redeem means to free or buy back. Humanity was held captive in that it was enslaved by sin. Since the devil overcame human beings by inducing them to sin, they were said to be in bondage to the devil. Moreover, the human race was held captive as to a debt of punishment, to the payment of which it was bound by divine justice”

SALVATION “In biblical language the deliverance from straitened circumstances or oppression by some evil to a state of freedom and security. As sin is the greatest evil, salvation is mainly liberation from sin and its consequences. This can be deliverance by way of preservation, or by offering the means for being delivered, or by removing the oppressive evil or difficulty, or by rewarding the effort spent in co-operating with grace in order to be delivered. All four aspects of salvation are found in the Scriptures and are taught by the Church. “**[Some but not all[/COLOR]]

Christ thought so highly of His Mother that He gave Her to humanity, knowing just how very helpful She would be in directing Souls to Him. If it’s good enugh for Christ; then it certainly is suffieivent for us. Amen!**

 

[frangiuliano115]

How would you like to see St. Anthony’s tongue?

It’s in the Duomo in Padova, east of Milan and before Venice.
There was a long line too! I don’t like long lines…!

Fran

 

[PJM]

=eazyduzit;13474887]Thanks, but I still don’t understand the nature of the “unbloody sacrifice”. Does it add to justification? Does it forgive sins?

Until Jesus returns, we are the body of Christ. All authority has been given to Him. We are to rule and to reign in His place. He has won the victory for us . We are more than conquerers. We are a kingdom of kings and priests. It is because His work is finished.

The Sacrifice we’re discussing Is the VERY original Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross;
RE-presented time & time again…

That very [and only] Sacrifice BUT NOW in an unbloody manner [It is the Glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus] Which is a Mystery & a Miracle; that we Catholics receive in Holy Communion.

Justification can be in no other manner more efficaciously affected because it is Jesus; IT IS JESUS.

And yes: Catholic Holy Communion removes the guilt [forgives] venial sins. BUT NOT Mortal sins:
1 Jn 1:6-7
1 Jn. 5:16-217
John 20:19-23

One in Mortal sin cannot receive Catholic Communion worthily as Moral sin severs one’s relationship with Christ until Sacramentally Confessed and Forgiven

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[Wannano]

If I may ask, at present are most of your interactions with Catholics through websites?

Sorry, somehow I missed this question to me. I have not been ignoring you! The only interaction I have had with Catholics on websites is on this forum. I have extensive contact with Catholic people in my locality and one priest in particular is a good friend. I love to discuss and debate and feel I honestly try to see from the others point of viewbut I realize I too have my preconceived biases. Jesus desires that we would all be one and in Him we are, it is ourselves that divide us.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Wannano

It is my take that He came to fulfill the Law and that He was the ultimate sacrifice. I tend to beleive that He did not come to start a new religion , rather to change men’s hearts and make His dwelling there…

REPLY

=rcwitness;13477894]I am comforted that you say these things. You are very Catholic at heart. And if a practicing Catholic argues with this faith of yours, then they have issues.

The only thing worth debating is the definition of the term “religion”. If you don’t believe Christianity is a religion, then I understand your point. I think it’s sad that Christianity has been divided into separate religions. Personally, I don’t think they are different religions if they are valid Christian.

Posted by Wannano

It is my take that He came to fulfill the Law and that He was the ultimate sacrifice. I tend to beleive that He did not come to start a new religion , rather to change men’s hearts and make His dwelling there./

OK, let’s back up a bit:

Why did Yahweh [God] choose just one “chosen people”? **Exo. 6:7 "
**

Exodus 6:7 “And I will take you to myself for my people, I will be your God:”

And then what did God do with and for them?

He freed them from Slavery; and took them on a 40 year trek to reform them into a “God-fearing”; “God loving” people.

Why did God with a cazillion choices choose “just one” people to train, and to condition, guide and protect?

Because with just One Chosen people; the world could know where to go in order to be saved. Literally & Spiritually. As all the other peoples were worshiping a great many man made gods.

From this perspective then:

Why Did Christ Choose:
One true God

with just One true & acceptable to Him] set of Faith beliefs Mt 28:18-29

And Just One Chosen people that HE renamed as "MY CHURCH" Mt. 16:18-19

And I say to YOU: That thou art Peter; and upon [YOU Peter] this rock** I will build my church**, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to [YOU Peter all of the] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

So then, how can we KNOW that he came precisely [not only to but precisely] to establish a new Church/Religion?

Three evidences:

1. God is One. So the God of the OT is the SAME God in the NT; desiring the same “thing.”
2. Rom. 6: 12-15
   “Let no sin therefore reign in your mortal body, so as to obey the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of iniquity unto sin; but present yourselves to God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of justice unto God. [14] For sin shall not have dominion over you**; for you are not under the law, but [NOW!] under grace**. What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.”

3.a Mt. 28: 19-20
And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying**: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.** Going therefore, teach YOU! all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded [taught] YOU!: and behold I am with YOU! all days, even to the consummation of the world.

3b. Jn. 17: 17-20
Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [19] And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. [20]** And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;**

So we see here clearly expressed DESIRE of Jesus Christ to TEACH the WORLD what He Jesus Had taught them; NOW under Grace and NOT “the law” as you suggest.

Your position my friend hinges on you dictating to GOD how He MUST and WILL [you hope; accept your way OVER His, in your effort to be saved. Don’t BET your SOUL on it

**Isaiah 55:6-9
Seek ye the Lord, while he may be found: call upon him, while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unjust man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God: for he is bountiful to forgive. For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. [9] For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

May God Bless and enlighten you my friend,

Patrick

 

[TC3033]

I’m going to catch flack for saying this BUT

The female gender among us don’t usually wait to “be asked”. There more likely to volunteer. Or at least seek investment:thumbsup:

While we male gender folks, for some unknown reason with to be asked.

My friend, rather than feeling sorry for yourself. If you want to get involved; then GET INVOLVED.

Talk to your Priest or DRE, and the head of the Parish Council. ASK WHAT CAN I DO!

I’ve never seen a parish large or small that does not have needs. Discover them and then DO SOMETHING about it:thumbsup:

God Bless you,
Patrick

I don’t feel sorry for myself, far from it.

Ya…it’s tough now that my oldest son is about to take first communion and I can’t be part of it. My extended family is basically the only family I have…I’m the only non-Catholic out of the 9 of us, so it’s tough feeling to be the outsider at holiday’s too.

I just find a Church environment that seems to be exclusionary vs inclusionary, dependent upon what type of Christian you are,…different. My example of all the Catholics in the Church being invited/asked to help and all the non-Catholics not is a top of my head example to use.

I also don’t understand why the Church would “asterisk” non-Catholic “members” in the directory, bulletin, etc. either.

I grew up in a Church environment where we didn’t care, so I’m just trying to understand. Is there an actual grudge…a rift? I always understood it was something to do with the “You can’t be saved without The Church (the church being the Catholic Church)”, but it seems I’m wrong there.

Honestly…and truly, as my family grows I feel more and more left out, so I’m trying to understand.

 

[Wannano]

I am comforted that you say these things. You are very Catholic at heart. And if a practicing Catholic argues with this faith of yours, then they have issues.

The only thing worth debating is the definition of the term “religion”. If you don’t believe Christianity is a religion, then I understand your point. I think it’s sad that Christianity has been divided into separate religions. Personally, I don’t think they are different religions if they are valid Christian.

Thank you for the wonderful confirmation rc. I am taking it as a compliment that I “am Catholic at heart”. I feel I should state though that my desire is not to be Catholic at heart, nor Protestant at heart or any other at heart except to be Christ like in my heart and what a wonderful failure I am at that so often.

I do not believe Christianity was meant to be a religion but it has become one. I do not see the different denominations as different religions. I agree with your last sentence.

In a group discussion someone asked this question: “if Jesus would physically come back this weekend to quietly and unnoticed walk amongst men, which church would He go to on Sunday morning?” No one ventured to answer, it was strangely quiet so I offered my opinion that He probably would not go to any of them. After a stunned silence mostly everyone agreed with me. Maybe I am wrong…maybe I am right. Or, do we dare believe that He is present at all of them even now as we gather with different perspectives?

 

[Peter_J]

Yes! This for me is really strange - I mean I’ve read people’s posts that talk about how their medal or scapular touch a relic of someone and that it was “blessed” or it seemed like it had special “powers” to help them. Not sure what it is that helps them.

I saw a video of a huge statue of Mary being brought to the front of the church. As it turned right, in front of the pew it became unbalanced and fell onto the floor. There was a huge gasp and people crying because it fell…

I have also seen videos of Catholics walking on their knees toward either a statue of Mary or some relic. Isn’t that considered a type of worship?

As (name removed by moderator) stated, no disrespect is intended at all. I just want to answer Patrick’s op.

God bless your Advent season!

Rita

“You would expect to find the “low” churchman genuflecting and crossing himself lest the weak conscience of his “high” brother should be moved to irreverence, and the “high” one refraining from these exercises lest he should betray his “low” brother into idolatry. And so it would have been but for our ceaseless labour.”

• Screwtape

 

[Peter_J]

How would you like to see St. Anthony’s tongue?

It’s in the Duomo in Padova, east of Milan and before Venice.
There was a long line too! I don’t like long lines…!

Fran

Very funny you mention that actually: after reading the earlier posts about relics, I got to remembering a Catholic professor, many years ago, telling me of his feeling about St. Anthony’s tongue … well, I say “telling”, but really it was facial expression that conveyed his feelings more than words, as I recall.

 

[Peter_J]

Sorry, somehow I missed this question to me. I have not been ignoring you! The only interaction I have had with Catholics on websites is on this forum. I have extensive contact with Catholic people in my locality and one priest in particular is a good friend. I love to discuss and debate and feel I honestly try to see from the others point of viewbut I realize I too have my preconceived biases. Jesus desires that we would all be one and in Him we are, it is ourselves that divide us.

Cool. I frequently worry that Protestant posters base their view of Catholicism mainly on “traditionalist” Catholics; but that’s probably not the case with you if you know lots of Catholic IRL.

 

[guanophore]

I agree that IS strange; UNTIL we grasp that God is in charge.

Because Protestantism by its very nature is designed to Compete with God; Christ specifically; and what Christ did; what Christ desires and what even the bible attest too.

I dont’ think so, PJM. I think that Protesatantism, by it’s very nature, was designed to compete against corrupt Catholic clerics and secular rulers who did not believe and practice their Catholic faith.

In reading the work of the Reformers, I see men who are passionate about their faith, and their relationship with Christ. I think they were a bit off center (and more as time has passed) but they were reacting to what they observed as Catholics “competing” against God through greed, power, and hedonism.

Luther was scandalized about what he saw in Rome. He imagined the bastion of orthodoxy, and instead found the opposite.

 

[Wannano]

REPLY

Posted by Wannano

It is my take that He came to fulfill the Law and that He was the ultimate sacrifice. I tend to beleive that He did not come to start a new religion , rather to change men’s hearts and make His dwelling there./

Exodus 6:7 “And I will take you to myself for my people, I will be your God:”

And then what did God do with and for them?

He freed them from Slavery; and took them on a 40 year trek to reform them into a “God-fearing”; “God loving” people.

Why did God with a cazillion choices choose “just one” people to train, and to condition, guide and protect?

Because with just One Chosen people; the world could know where to go in order to be saved. Literally & Spiritually. As all the other peoples were worshiping a great many man made gods.

From this perspective then:

Why Did Christ Choose:
One true God

with just One true & acceptable to Him] set of Faith beliefs Mt 28:18-29

And Just One Chosen people that HE renamed as "MY CHURCH" Mt. 16:18-19

And I say to YOU: That thou art Peter; and upon [YOU Peter] this rock** I will build my church**, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to [YOU Peter all of the] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

So then, how can we KNOW that he came precisely [not only to but precisely] to establish a new Church/Religion?

Three evidences:

1. God is One. So the God of the OT is the SAME God in the NT; desiring the same “thing.”
2. Rom. 6: 12-15
   “Let no sin therefore reign in your mortal body, so as to obey the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of iniquity unto sin; but present yourselves to God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of justice unto God. [14] For sin shall not have dominion over you**; for you are not under the law, but [NOW!] under grace**. What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.”

3.a Mt. 28: 19-20
And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying**: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.** Going therefore, teach YOU! all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded [taught] YOU!: and behold I am with YOU! all days, even to the consummation of the world.

3b. Jn. 17: 17-20
Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [19] And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. [20]** And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;**

So we see here clearly expressed DESIRE of Jesus Christ to TEACH the WORLD what He Jesus Had taught them; NOW under Grace and NOT “the law” as you suggest.

Your position my friend hinges on you dictating to GOD how He MUST and WILL [you hope; accept your way OVER His, in your effort to be saved. Don’t BET your SOUL on it

**Isaiah 55:6-9
Seek ye the Lord, while he may be found: call upon him, while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unjust man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God: for he is bountiful to forgive. For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. [9] For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

May God Bless and enlighten you my friend,

Patrick

I am not understanding how what I said is causing you to say that I am dictating anything to God. I am familiar with all the verses you have quoted and I agree with all the reasoning you presented. I am baffled that you think I do not understand and accept God’s plan for salvation.

I know Jesus expressed desire for the world to know who the Christians are by the love they have for one another. Honestly in your post and in some of your other posts to others I do not sense a lot of love. Remember when you point at someone there are three fingers pointing back at you.

 

[guanophore]

How would you like to see St. Anthony’s tongue?

It’s in the Duomo in Padova, east of Milan and before Venice.
There was a long line too! I don’t like long lines…!

Fran

Really?!

I don’t like long lines either.

I did see the forearm of St. Jude once. It is no wonder people think relics are creepy.

 

[meltzerboy]

Yeah. The Trinity. Who can understand it?

But Jesus is our advocate. Because He stands in our defense with God. Sinful, wretched creatures that we are - who can stand the brilliance of God Almighty? So, He’s our atty - the one who sacrificed Himself for us so God could love us through Him. No One Comes To The Father Except Through Me.

And each person of the trinity has their own particular work. If you’re really interested just ask. I’ve taught this to kids for years and still have my notes.

The Father has specific work
ditto for the Son and the Holy Spirit

Fran

But if Jesus is believed by Catholics to be G-d, how can “He stand in our defense WITH G-d.” Now I do understand that Jesus is thought to be G-d and man inextricably bound in a hypostatic union and that Jesus has a specific role to play within the Trinity, but isn’t He acting as G-d, not as man, when defending us? Likewise, when you say “so G-d could love us THROUGH Him,” what does that mean if Jesus is indeed G-d? The impression I am getting by your words–even though I know you don’t believe this–is that Jesus is an intermediary or mediator between G-d and man but not G-d Himself. Can Jesus be both a mediator and G-d at the same time?

 

[Michael68]

But if Jesus is believed by Catholics to be G-d, how can “He stand in our defense WITH G-d.” Now I do understand that Jesus is thought to be G-d and man inextricably bound in a hypostatic union and that Jesus has a specific role to play within the Trinity, but isn’t He acting as G-d, not as man, when defending us? Likewise, when you say “so G-d could love us THROUGH Him,” what does that mean if Jesus is indeed G-d? The impression I am getting by your words–even though I know you don’t believe this–is that Jesus is an intermediary or mediator between G-d and man but not G-d Himself. Can Jesus be both a mediator and G-d at the same time?

Sure! God the Son, is mediator to God the Father. It is a mystery

 

[benhur]

My dear friends in Christ;

What if anything do you find stange anout the Catholic Church/ Catholic Faith?

God Bless you,

Patrick

Hi PJM,

I suppose the biggest difference, or what is unusual between the CC and the rest of the Body is her most grandiose institution, the papacy .

Blessings

 

[CompSciGuy]

What I find intriguing is this:

Jesus came proclaiming the simplist of messages, “follow me”, “believe in Me”, “I and the Father are one”, “ye must be born again”, “I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me”. He was homeless, not even having a pillow for is head. He railed against the established heiriarchal religious system. His message was one of love and the need for man to allow Him to reside in their hearts and lives. His kingdom “was not of this world” He said. Then He gave the keys to Peter and established a heiriarchal church, has guided it without error into centuries of luxury, friendships with earthly rulers, councils and bishops introducing doctrines and practices into the present age.

I hesitated to post this thread but what am I missing?

If you think that Jesus was against hierarchical religion in general, then you are mistaken. His message was to convert the hearts of people because the pharisee’s righteousness was not pleasing to God as it was only outward and not inward. But as far as hierarchy itself, Jesus certainly respected hierarchy and recognized the need for it especially in religion, as shown in the following passage:

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you.
Matthew 23:1-3

The fact that the church has survived centuries in spite of corruption and antics of bad clerics is to me a sign of its divine guidance. Any strictly man-made organization would surely not have survived this long.

 

[PJM]

I dont’ think so, PJM. I think that Protesatantism, by it’s very nature, was designed to compete against corrupt Catholic clerics and secular rulers who did not believe and practice their Catholic faith.

In reading the work of the Reformers, I see men who are passionate about their faith, and their relationship with Christ. I think they were a bit off center (and more as time has passed) but they were reacting to what they observed as Catholics “competing” against God through greed, power, and hedonism.

Luther was scandalized about what he saw in Rome. He imagined the bastion of orthodoxy, and instead found the opposite.

OK:shrug: I’ll “bite”

Can we agree that truth HAS to be singular per defined issue?

And what my friend is your understanding of biblical veracity?

And where do “secular rulers” fit into OUR Faith discussion?

Let me know, and then we can proceed.

God Bless you!

Patrick

 

[CompSciGuy]

Also regarding fancy churches, very often people of all economic backgrounds would contribute in one way or another to make the church very beautiful and ornate. People were very pious in that time and wanted to give their best for God. Also churches were kind of an equalizer of the time; most of the fancy, ornate lavishness was reserved for the wealthiest members of society and was found in palaces. Churches, on the other hand, were open to everyone. Even the poorest peasants could go into these huge, ornate churches to pray. There was no favoritism there.

 

[PJM]

PJM;13478262:

REPLY

Posted by Wannano

It is my take that He came to fulfill the Law and that He was the ultimate sacrifice. I tend to beleive that He did not come to start a new religion , rather to change men’s hearts and make His dwelling there./

Thank you for the very kind reminder:thumbsup:

I am trying to be:

as brief as possible

d=factual as possible

in sharing the truth; which has to be singular per defined issue.

If my friend i have offended you; I AM truly sorry. That is never my intent.

But sometimes truth is not completely welcome; yet as truth it is the message that is necessary.

Again, sorry if I offended you in some manner.

God Bless you,
Patrick