What dear friend, do you find strange about Catholicism?

[PJM]

Hi PJM,

I suppose the biggest difference, or what is unusual between the CC and the rest of the Body is her most grandiose institution, the papacy .

Blessings

OK, BUT

God made the Papacy; the CC only added the name.Mt. 10:1-2;; Mt. 16: 15-19; Mt. 28:18-20

But I do agree that the “palace” is a bit much.

God expects us to give HIM the best that we can: TRAD if you haven’t recently the Book of Exodus chapters 22-26: GOD Himself expects no less.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[frangiuliano115]

Sorry, somehow I missed this question to me. I have not been ignoring you! The only interaction I have had with Catholics on websites is on this forum. I have extensive contact with Catholic people in my locality and one priest in particular is a good friend. I love to discuss and debate and feel I honestly try to see from the others point of viewbut I realize I too have my preconceived biases. Jesus desires that we would all be one and in Him we are, it is ourselves that divide us.

AMEN.

Now i ask, why do protestants believe this and we have a bit of a problem with ii???

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

=PJM;13478262]REPLY

You say to Eazyduzit:

So we see here clearly expressed DESIRE of Jesus Christ to TEACH the WORLD what He Jesus Had taught them; NOW under Grace and NOT “the law” as you suggest

She didn’t say we’re under the Law - she said Jesus fulfilled the Law.

And you think you’re living under grace and not under the Law?

Very interesting indeed…

Law = following all the rules to the “T”.
Grace = Jesus took care of sin for us and we are ALL invited to share in his sacrifice and depend on Him for our salvation.

And you tell Wannano:

Your position my friend hinges on you dictating to GOD how He MUST and WILL [you hope; accept your way OVER His, in your effort to be saved. Don’t BET your SOUL on it

[/COLOR]

I’ve been reading page after page of you dictating to God how He Must and Will accept YOUR way over His in your effort to be saved.

Yes. I do find this strange.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

But if Jesus is believed by Catholics to be G-d, how can “He stand in our defense WITH G-d.” Now I do understand that Jesus is thought to be G-d and man inextricably bound in a hypostatic union and that Jesus has a specific role to play within the Trinity, but isn’t He acting as G-d, not as man, when defending us? Likewise, when you say “so G-d could love us THROUGH Him,” what does that mean if Jesus is indeed G-d? The impression I am getting by your words–even though I know you don’t believe this–is that Jesus is an intermediary or mediator between G-d and man but not G-d Himself. Can Jesus be both a mediator and G-d at the same time?

Read the book of Hebrews. It’ll answer all of the above questions. Jesus is our High Priest - the ultimate High Priest, meant as in the O.T. Levitical sacrificial times and up to 70 when Jerusalem was destroyed.

When defending us He is acting as God. But this gets into the Trinity and I don’t know anybody who is really good at this - I certainly am not.

If you believe each one has their own special work, then you humanly have to separate them, although you’re not supposed to.

So God is One. He has ONE nature. God’s nature. But he’s divided into 3 “persons”, each with its own personality, and work to do. So when we get to being judged, God Almighty might say: And who’s this? And Jesus, the Son will say: He’s one of mine, let him through. Jesus will be the advocate, He will cover for us so to speak, God Almighty will be speaking to God the Son. How about at Mass when catholics say the Creed and they say that Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God. How could He be sitting at the right hand of God if He’s a separate “person”? it’s the same idea.

God loving us through Him is the same. Jesus was fully God and fully man when he was crucified. So it was a man dying and it was God dying - which is why He was able to resurrect - He was God and had the power to resurrect Himself. (the Himself may not be theologically correct, please check) - I do believe it was His own power.

God loves us through Him because when He sees a christian, He’s seeing His son and not the sinful man.

You should read a book called The Shack by Wm (?) Young. It’s a simple story but it really helps somewhat to understand the Trinity. It is a STORY but there’s much truth to it.

Fran

 

[Vaseljen]

I find it strange that the Roman-Catholic Church forbade the laity to receive the Blood of Christ at the Eucharist, even though Jesus Christ said “Drink ALL OF YOU.” Looks like Jesus Christ saw the future what will happen in the Latin Church and that is why he said drink ALL of you.

 

[frangiuliano115]

If you think that Jesus was against hierarchical religion in general, then you are mistaken. His message was to convert the hearts of people because the pharisee’s righteousness was not pleasing to God as it was only outward and not inward. But as far as hierarchy itself, Jesus certainly respected hierarchy and recognized the need for it especially in religion, as shown in the following passage:

The fact that the church has survived centuries in spite of corruption and antics of bad clerics is to me a sign of its divine guidance. Any strictly man-made organization would surely not have survived this long.

CompSciGuy,

You forgot to quote the rest of the story:

"But do not do what they do for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. …

But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have only one Master and you are all brothers, and do not call anyone on earth Father ( a title of pride - not priests) for you have one father and He is in heaven. Nor are you to be called teacher for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant, for whoever exhalts himself will be humbled and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

Then He continues with the “Seven Woes” to the pharisees, telling them how wretched they were.
Mathew 23:1-33 or thereabouts.

So He was definitely against the pharisees. This is a bad verse to use to protect hierarchical religion.

I hate taking verses out of context…

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Wannano;13478375:

PJM;13478262:

REPLY

Posted by Wannano

Thank you for the very kind reminder:thumbsup:

I am trying to be:

as brief as possible

d=factual as possible

in sharing the truth; which has to be singular per defined issue.

If my friend i have offended you; I AM truly sorry. That is never my intent.

But sometimes truth is not completely welcome; yet as truth it is the message that is necessary.

Again, sorry if I offended you in some manner.

God Bless you,
Patrick

If I remember, Jesus never offended anyone, even sinners.
He was, however, pretty darn upset with those pharisees, I think.
Oh. And the moneychanges in the court of the Gentiles at the Temple.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano;13478375:

PJM;13478262:

REPLY

Posted by Wannano

Thank you for the very kind reminder:thumbsup:

I am trying to be:

as brief as possible

d=factual as possible

in sharing the truth; which has to be singular per defined issue.

If my friend i have offended you; I AM truly sorry. That is never my intent.

But sometimes truth is not completely welcome; yet as truth it is the message that is necessary.

Again, sorry if I offended you in some manner.

God Bless you,
Patrick

An apology prefaced with “if” and followed with a “but” is interesting. My Boss says we must forgive and turn the other cheek so I accept and am again anxious for you to explain how you understand from what I said that I am demanding God to adopt my plan and not His.

 

[TonyBS]

I hate taking verses out of context…Fran

Now the question is how much of the Context have we distorted by mans own deficient understanding

What I find Starange about Catholicism is I wonder how many find this Pope as wonderful as a Baha’i would regard Him. I think there would be a few Catholics finding this Pope A CHALLENGE

How about this From the interview:

Pope Francis: Fundamentalism is a sickness that exists in all religions. We Catholics have some, not just some, so many, who believe they have the absolute truth and they move forward with calumnies, with defamation and they hurt (people), they hurt. And, I say this because it’s my Church, also us, all of us. It must be combatted. Religious fundamentalism isn’t religious. Why? Because God is lacking. It’s idolatrous, as money is idolatrous. Making politics in the sense of convincing these people who have this tendency is a politics that we religious leaders must make, but fundamentalism that ends up always in tragedy or in crime, in a bad thing comes about in all religions a little bit.

…

Delia Gallagher, CNN: You’ve made many gestures of respect toward Muslims. I was wondering, what does Islam and the teaching of the prophet Mohammed have to say to the world today?

Pope Francis: They have virtues, many virtues and these virtues are constructive. I also have the experience of friendship – it’s a strong word, friendship – with a Muslim, a world leader, we can talk, and he had his beliefs and I had mine, he prayed and I prayed. (There are) many values, prayer for example, fasting, religious values. Also other virtues…We can’t cancel out a religious because there are some, or even many fundamentalist groups at a certain point in history. It’s true, wars between religions have always been there throughout history, always. We also need to ask for forgiveness, Catherine de’Medici was no saint, and that 30 years war, that night of St. Bartholomew, we must also ask for forgiveness from the fundamentalist extremists in the religious wars.

But they have virtues, one can dialogue with them. Today I was at a mosque, an Imam prayed with me, he wanted to go around the small stadium with me in the popemobile, where there were many who couldn’t enter, and in the popemobile there was the Pope and an Imam. It was possible to speak. As everywhere, there are people with religious values, there are people who don’t…how many wars, not only religious, wars we Christians have made. It wasn’t the Muslims who did the Sack of Rome. They have virtues.

Wonderful Pope

Regards Tony

 

[frangiuliano115]

Now the question is how much of the Context have we distorted by mans own deficient understanding

What I find Starange about Catholicism is I wonder how many find this Pope as wonderful as a Baha’i would regard Him. I think there would be a few Catholics finding this Pope A CHALLENGE

How about this From the interview:

Pope Francis: Fundamentalism is a sickness that exists in all religions. We Catholics have some, not just some, so many, who believe they have the absolute truth and they move forward with calumnies, with defamation and they hurt (people), they hurt. And, I say this because it’s my Church, also us, all of us. It must be combatted. Religious fundamentalism isn’t religious. Why? Because God is lacking. It’s idolatrous, as money is idolatrous. Making politics in the sense of convincing these people who have this tendency is a politics that we religious leaders must make, but fundamentalism that ends up always in tragedy or in crime, in a bad thing comes about in all religions a little bit.

…

Delia Gallagher, CNN: You’ve made many gestures of respect toward Muslims. I was wondering, what does Islam and the teaching of the prophet Mohammed have to say to the world today?

Pope Francis: They have virtues, many virtues and these virtues are constructive. I also have the experience of friendship – it’s a strong word, friendship – with a Muslim, a world leader, we can talk, and he had his beliefs and I had mine, he prayed and I prayed. (There are) many values, prayer for example, fasting, religious values. Also other virtues…We can’t cancel out a religious because there are some, or even many fundamentalist groups at a certain point in history. It’s true, wars between religions have always been there throughout history, always. We also need to ask for forgiveness, Catherine de’Medici was no saint, and that 30 years war, that night of St. Bartholomew, we must also ask for forgiveness from the fundamentalist extremists in the religious wars.

But they have virtues, one can dialogue with them. Today I was at a mosque, an Imam prayed with me, he wanted to go around the small stadium with me in the popemobile, where there were many who couldn’t enter, and in the popemobile there was the Pope and an Imam. It was possible to speak. As everywhere, there are people with religious values, there are people who don’t…how many wars, not only religious, wars we Christians have made. It wasn’t the Muslims who did the Sack of Rome. They have virtues.

Wonderful Pope

Regards Tony

Many are finding this Pope a challenge. The sad thing is that they’re not listening, as can be evidenced on these threads.

Catholicism is strange because it’s not inclusive of others very easily and I’m not sure why.

Fundamentalism is not a good thing in any religion, would you agree? it says we’re right no matter what. John Lennon’s Imagine dared to dream of a world with no religion- but that’s even worse!

Soon
Fran

 

[TonyBS]

Many are finding this Pope a challenge. The sad thing is that they’re not listening, as can be evidenced on these threads.

Catholicism is strange because it’s not inclusive of others very easily and I’m not sure why.

Fundamentalism is not a good thing in any religion, would you agree? it says we’re right no matter what. John Lennon’s Imagine dared to dream of a world with no religion- but that’s even worse!

Soon
Fran

Dear Fran Yes it is not good in any Religion, Gods Religion is for all and each heart has to choose its own path to that Love.

Interestingly this is what Abdul’Baha has said on the topic of religion of disagreement;

Religion should be the Cause of Love and Affection

“Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth, give birth to spirituality, and bring life and light to each heart. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division, it were better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure; but if the remedy should only aggravate the complaint it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion. All the holy prophets were as doctors to the soul; they gave prescriptions for the healing of mankind; thus any remedy that causes disease does not come from the great and supreme Physician”.

Regards Tony

 

[adrift]

I find it strange that the Roman-Catholic Church forbade the laity to receive the Blood of Christ at the Eucharist, even though Jesus Christ said “Drink ALL OF YOU.” Looks like Jesus Christ saw the future what will happen in the Latin Church and that is why he said drink ALL of you.

Who is the all of you? You are interpreting that by “all” Jesus was looking into the future and meant? Did Jesus mean the laity or was the “all” His Priest?

 

[adrift]

CompSciGuy,

You forgot to quote the rest of the story:

"But do not do what they do for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. …

But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have only one Master and you are all brothers, and do not call anyone on earth Father ( a title of pride - not priests) for you have one father and He is in heaven. Nor are you to be called teacher for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant, for whoever exhalts himself will be humbled and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

Then He continues with the “Seven Woes” to the pharisees, telling them how wretched they were.
Mathew 23:1-33 or thereabouts.

So He was definitely against the pharisees. This is a bad verse to use to protect hierarchical religion.

I hate taking verses out of context…

Fran

Tell me how does the context change what CompSciGuy
He said

If you think that Jesus was against hierarchical religion in general, then you are mistaken. His message was to convert the hearts of people because the pharisee’s righteousness was not pleasing to God as it was only outward and not inward. But as far as hierarchy itself, Jesus certainly respected hierarchy and recognized the need for it especially in religion, as shown in the following passage:

He actually was in context even if he didn’t quote it all and neither did you your … does not mean you quoted all.
That Jesus said that the Pharisees had the authority but failed to practice it. CompSciGuy’s point is accurate quoting the rest of what Jesus said didn’t change it. When something is taken out of context it means that the meaning is changed.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Tell me how does the context change what CompSciGuy
He said

He actually was in context even if he didn’t quote it all and neither did you your … does not mean you quoted all.
That Jesus said that the Pharisees had the authority but failed to practice it. CompSciGuy’s point is accurate quoting the rest of what Jesus said didn’t change it. When something is taken out of context it means that the meaning is changed.

Was Jesus against heirarchicle religion or not?

CompSciGuy says:

If you think that Jesus was against hierarchical religion in general, then you are mistaken.

If I think Jesus was against hierarchical religion I’m mistaken.
That means Jesus was FOR hierarchical religion according to CompSciGuy.

I’M saying Jesus was against it.

Please read Mathew for yourself so you could read the …
which just saved me some typing.

And you’ll find that the rest of the story does change what CompSciGuy said.

 

[guanophore]

"But do not do what they do for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. …

But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have only one Master and you are all brothers, and do not call anyone on earth Father ( a title of pride - not priests) for you have one father and He is in heaven. Nor are you to be called teacher for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant, for whoever exhalts himself will be humbled and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

Then He continues with the “Seven Woes” to the pharisees, telling them how wretched they were.
Mathew 23:1-33 or thereabouts.

So He was definitely against the pharisees. This is a bad verse to use to protect hierarchical religion.

I hate taking verses out of context…

Fran

On the contrary, it is the perfect verse. It makes it very clear that Jesus supports the position of authority they occupy, even though they don’t “get it” (living by grace through faith) and are not good examples.

Jesus gave the Seat of Moses (teaching authority) to the Church. The office is valid, even if the person occupying it is a poor example of the faith.

 

[frangiuliano115]

On the contrary, it is the perfect verse. It makes it very clear that Jesus supports the position of authority they occupy, even though they don’t “get it” (living by grace through faith) and are not good examples.

Jesus gave the Seat of Moses (teaching authority) to the Church. The office is valid, even if the person occupying it is a poor example of the faith.

People could read Mathew 23 and decide for themselves.

 

[adrift]

Mathew 23 to post it in the entirety would be to long of a post.
Link to it

Jesus states to do as the Scribes and Pharisees tell them but not what they do because they have authority (“sit on Moses seat”) versus 1-4
Jesus expounds on why 4-8
Jesus explains further not to seek, like the Scribes and Pharisees, pride fully honorific titles. Some of why Jesus said is hyperbole. Versus 9-12
as has been noted versus 13-36 are the seven woes that Jesus criticizes the Scribes ad Pharisees as well as giving them warnings.

versus 37-39 Jesus laments over Jerusalem.

The context is that Scribes and Pharisees have authority that should be followed but what they do should not be followed.

 

[ZellieFan]

Nothing. It’s the only faith that makes perfect sense to me.

Total truth and total sense. The fallen away churches have lost so much.

Come home to Rome!

 

[CompSciGuy]

CompSciGuy,

You forgot to quote the rest of the story:

"But do not do what they do for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. …

But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have only one Master and you are all brothers, and do not call anyone on earth Father ( a title of pride - not priests) for you have one father and He is in heaven. Nor are you to be called teacher for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant, for whoever exhalts himself will be humbled and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

Then He continues with the “Seven Woes” to the pharisees, telling them how wretched they were.
Mathew 23:1-33 or thereabouts.

So He was definitely against the pharisees. This is a bad verse to use to protect hierarchical religion.

I hate taking verses out of context…

Fran

No it absolutely is not! Because he explicitly states that the pharisees have authority. He says do as they say (hence teaching authority) but not as they do. This is a perfect example of how to respond to people who talk about bad popes, bad bishops, etc. The teaching of the church comes from the Holy Spirit but that doesn’t mean that every bishop and every pope is going to be perfect. To say that this verse is against hierarchy is taking it out of context. Jesus doesn’t say to throw out the hierarchy, he simply calls them out for their bad witness. Just as we should not throw out the hierarchy, just be aware when there is a bad witness.

 

[rcwitness]

People could read Mathew 23 and decide for themselves.

People should read Scripture, often!

… and people do, and come to many different interpretations and judgements. Some listen to the Spirit, while others let their desires and ambitions lead their minds.

I have been convicted, after reading Scripture, praying, doing my best to rely on the Spirit to put aside my own will, to obey the leaders of the Church (not just a parish/local/denomination) and allow His Spirit to lead me into the Truth delivered by Him through His Church.

For some, this seems like putting aside the Spirit and Scriptures and trusting in men. I am very opposed to this! No! I will listen to Him in the appointed leaders of His Church. If individuals contradict
what has been written and confirmed by the whole Church, then it may be God putting a challenge to help correct something. But this takes holy devotion to actually help against bad teaching!