What dear friend, do you find strange about Catholicism?

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eazyduzit said:
The way I see it, it is not logical or fair to compare the miracle at Cana with the Last Supper.
First note that it was evident that the water was no longer water but wine. It was perfectly evident to the senses. They did not drink plain water and then try to say that it was now not water, but really wine that just looked and tasted like water. No that is not what happened.

But in the Catholic miracle you have something that is said to change, but it can’t be perceived. It deceives the senses. It pretends to be something it is not. Now, Jesus never did a miracle that was not perfectly evident and undeniable. Why would He now do something that is a lie on the surface? That is really not worthy of God. God is capable of actually changing things in a way we can perceive. It is not hard for Him.

For instance, if I am saved, but I still curse and steal and drink, I am not really changed and my alleged salvation is a lie because there is no change. God’s work always produces a real change that we can see.

Shalom,
Jerry
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Hi Jerry,

Its a natural and very human reaction to want to be able to prove everything in order to believe it. BUT such a mind set denies the reality of God’s unlimited abilities to do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING Good:)

The practice of religion is termed “Faith.” and Paul tells us: Heb. 11: 1

“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”

The REAL Presence is verified in the bible as Testimony of it is given by 5 separate authors and Jesus [GOD] Himself.

Mt 26:26+28
Mk 14: 22-24
Lk 22: 17-20
Paul 1st Corn 23-30 LOOK THIS UP AND READ IT PRAYRTFULLY
John 6:47-58 [here’s a few of those verses]

[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world

[55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

[56] For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. [57] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.

How my friend, could God and John have been more specific; more precise?🤷

Then the FACT that the every early RCC accepted; believed and PRACTICED this belief is irrefutable. They termed it: “the breaking of the bread”

** Luke 24:35**
And they told what things were done in the way; and how they knew him in the breaking of the bread.

Acts 2:42
And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers

Then GOOGLE “the Real Presence/miracles”

The FACT that this is Jesus Christ [Mt. 28:20] is the GREATEST possible of all good things. Amen!

.
 
frangiuliano115 said:
Hi Benhur,

I’ve been following along but don’t have a lot to say on this.

Never the twain shall meet on this one.

I’m told that we have to decide between John 6 verse 44 and 54.

Do you agree?

Why can’t it be both? First 44, we’re saved. Then 54.

I also see it as literal - apart from the fact that my religious affiliation is Catholic, I do like to understand what I believe. I’m kind of stuck on 60 and 66. Why did some disciples abandon Him?

I will also assert that I like to stick to the bible for my support.

Fran
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Hi Fran,
Why can’t it be both? First 44, we’re saved. Then 54
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[44] No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day"

Here we go again on your theory that every-one is saved. NOT! Such a position defies God’s necessary need to be Fair and to Be just; as well as humanities freewill choose by our life decisions to choose heaven or hell BY OUR life choices.

[54] “Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.”

This is NOT to be understood as some “magic elixir”. Nor is it to be understood that this is ALL that is necessary to MERIT ones salvation. Certainly it is the most advantageous thing a Soul can do; to receive the Body, Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus himself worthily is the greatest possible aid to the salvation of souls. BUT the word “worthily” is of critical importance. It entaild:

Complete belief in the Real Presence

Being “in the state of grace” [no unconfessed/unforgiven Mortal sins]

Being aware of Christ Presence and mindful of it & desiring to partake of this most intimate and grace-filled Sacrament.
I’m kind of stuck on 60 and 66. Why did some disciples abandon Him?
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[60] These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

[61] Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it?

I suspect that you mean verse 61?

The people who left Christ [actually denied GOD!]. It was a lack of faith that they were unable to discern what Jesus proclaimed!; while other hearing the same exact thing were ABLE and DID believe. The unbelievers were focused on the CORPORAL body of Jesus; BUT Jesus and the believers [who did not have a full understanding AT THIS POINT; BUT did have sufficient faith iin God to be able to di ANY good thing. Jesus was speaking of his soon to be Crucified body which was GLORIFIED on Easter; 3 day’s after his death. **It is our Lords GLORIFIED Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity that we receive in Catholic Holy Communion.

66] And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. [67] **After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. [68] Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away?
**

Again I presume you mean verse 67?

They thought Jesus was NUTS! How could he give them his CORPORAL body?

BUT the reaction of Peter and the Apostles is the KEY:

[69] And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. [70] And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.

God Bless you,
Patrick

.
 
eazyduzit said:
It is one thing to believe for a miracle. It is another to believe someone’s word that a miracle has occurred if there is no evidence.🤷
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What you are doing is discounting all the lives and witnesses of those who have been transformed by the miracles of the sacraments, especially the Eucharist. 🤷

You must think they all have a group kind of psychosis, or something.
PJM said:
Code: 
 Its a natural and very human reaction to want to be able to prove everything in order to believe it. BUT such a mind set denies the reality of God's unlimited abilities to do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING Good:)
The practice of religion is termed “Faith.” and Paul tells us: Heb. 11: 1

“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”

Then GOOGLE “the Real Presence/miracles”.
Click to expand...
Great post Patrick. But I don’t think Eazy will even accept the testimonies of the Real Presence miracles, since they have not happened to him personally, I guess they don’t count.
 
eazyduzit said:
Yes, that is exactly what I’m saying. The water that was changed at Cana was judged to be the best wine. Every miracle of Jesus could be seen and judgement could be made so that no one could deny it.

And yes, the man of God must be able to have discernment about what is worthy of God and what is not from Him. It saves a lot of trouble. For example, there are those who might claim that a certain illness is from God. I would know that’s wrong because it’s not worthy of Him.
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No my friend;

While you are correct in understanding that Miracles are from God; and that God does miracles to presents the opportunity of affecting one’s Spiritual growth.through miracles; not every miracle is to be physically evident.

Mt 9: 5-6
“Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins are forgiven thee: or to say, Arise, and walk? But that you may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then said he to the man sick of palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go into thy house.”

Miracles of a Spiritual nature are FAR more difficult [like a conversion to God’s singular truths]; and far more significance… There effects are much more important, and often are concealed.
Every miracle of Jesus could be seen and judgement could be made so that no one could deny it
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.

Were this factual there would be NO need for “faith”.🤷

Heb 11: 1
“Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not”

Ephesians 2:8
“For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God”
For example, there are those who might claim that a certain illness is from God. I would know that’s wrong because it’s not worthy of Him.
Click to expand...
While your not wrong here; it at the same time is critical to understand that God can; and God DOES permit “evil” [bad things like cancer] to happen so that God can present an opportunity for a greater GOOD to come from them. It is further necessary to understand that this “greater good” might, and often is for someone other than the patient.👍

God Bless you,
Pastrick
 
guanophore said:
snip…

Great post Patrick. But I don’t think Eazy will even accept the testimonies of the Real Presence miracles, since they have not happened to him personally, I guess they don’t count.
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However easyduzit accepts the miracles recorded in scripture even though they did not happen to him personally.
 
PJM said:
Hi Fran,

[44] No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day"

Here we go again on your theory that every-one is saved. NOT! Such a position defies God’s necessary need to be Fair and to Be just; as well as humanities freewill choose by our life decisions to choose heaven or hell BY OUR life choices.

[54] “Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.”

This is NOT to be understood as some “magic elixir”. Nor is it to be understood that this is ALL that is necessary to MERIT ones salvation. Certainly it is the most advantageous thing a Soul can do; to receive the Body, Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus himself worthily is the greatest possible aid to the salvation of souls. BUT the word “worthily” is of critical importance. It entaild:

Complete belief in the Real Presence

Being “in the state of grace” [no unconfessed/unforgiven Mortal sins]

Being aware of Christ Presence and mindful of it & desiring to partake of this most intimate and grace-filled Sacrament.

[60] These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

[61] Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it?

I suspect that you mean verse 61?

The people who left Christ [actually denied GOD!]. It was a lack of faith that they were unable to discern what Jesus proclaimed!; while other hearing the same exact thing were ABLE and DID believe. The unbelievers were focused on the CORPORAL body of Jesus; BUT Jesus and the believers [who did not have a full understanding AT THIS POINT; BUT did have sufficient faith iin God to be able to di ANY good thing. Jesus was speaking of his soon to be Crucified body which was GLORIFIED on Easter; 3 day’s after his death. **It is our Lords GLORIFIED Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity that we receive in Catholic Holy Communion.
Click to expand...
66] And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. [67] **After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. [68] Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away?
**

Again I presume you mean verse 67?

They thought Jesus was NUTS! How could he give them his CORPORAL body?

BUT the reaction of Peter and the Apostles is the KEY:

[69] And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. [70] And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.

God Bless you,
Patrick

.

Thanks PJM,

I THINK I know the catholic position.

I was asking Benhur for his beliefs.

Fran
 
PJM said:
No my friend;

While you are correct in understanding that Miracles are from God; and that God does miracles to presents the opportunity of affecting one’s Spiritual growth.through miracles; not every miracle is to be physically evident.

Mt 9: 5-6
“Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins are forgiven thee: or to say, Arise, and walk? But that you may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then said he to the man sick of palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go into thy house.”

Miracles of a Spiritual nature are FAR more difficult [like a conversion to God’s singular truths]; and far more significance… There effects are much more important, and often are concealed.

.

Were this factual there would be NO need for “faith”.🤷

Heb 11: 1
“Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not”

Ephesians 2:8
“For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God”

While your not wrong here; it at the same time is critical to understand that God can; and God DOES permit “evil” [bad things like cancer] to happen so that God can present an opportunity for a greater GOOD to come from them. It is further necessary to understand that this “greater good” might, and often is for someone other than the patient.👍

God Bless you,
Pastrick
Click to expand...
See what I mean about you PJM:

What does Mathew 5 or Hebrews 11 have to do with anything we’re discussing here??

I didn’t read anywhere that EZ doesn’t believe in miracles.

And while I’m here, could you tell me a miracle that is not visible?

Please don’t say the miracle of salvation. It’s VERY visible since a change occurs in the person.

Did you read my post no. 372?? Especially 5 pp’s from the bottom.

Fran
P.S. Speaking in tongues is visible too. And plus it’s not a miracle but a gift.
 
frangiuliano115 said:
What does Mathew 5 or Hebrews 11 have to do with anything we’re discussing here??
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They are about believing without having proof that convinces the human senses.
frangiuliano115 said:
Code: 
  I didn't read anywhere that EZ doesn't believe in miracles.
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Only those visible to the human senses, it appears.
frangiuliano115 said:
Code: 
And while I'm here, could you tell me a miracle that is not visible?
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The one under discussion, which is the Real Presence.
frangiuliano115 said:
Code: 
Please don't say the miracle of salvation. It's VERY visible since a change occurs in the person.
Click to expand...
Please show me a baptized infant that demonstrates a “change”??
frangiuliano115 said:
Code: 
  P.S.  Speaking in tongues is visible too.  And plus it's not a miracle but a gift.
Click to expand...
Perhaps we need to define miracle, then. It could be said that the Eucharist is a gift, rather than a miracle.
 
What we will all find out is how strange Catholicism and in fact any religion is.

How far we have actually removed ourselves from what is “Truth”. We may consider we are custodians of “Truth”, but we have lost the source from our lives.

Materialism has fed our Vain Imaginings and this has penetrated so deeply in to our lives that was has become normal and supposed “Truth”, is not any more of God.

If we look at this world it is easy to see the “End Times” have been with us for quite some years, but still we expound the same “Old Thoughts”.

Did not Christ say I will make all things New?

Revelation 21:5 "He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
What I find strange about Catholic is is how much people ( HERE, I don’t encounter this IRL) can argue so much about the faith among themselves.
 
Faith1960 said:
What I find strange about Catholic is is how much people ( HERE, I don’t encounter this IRL) can argue so much about the faith among themselves.
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That was a good observation that needed to come from a Catholic 😃

God bless all and regards Tony
 
Faith1960 said:
It bears repeating – I never encounter this IRL.
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👍 It definitely bears repeating. I myself have told Protestants a number of times that Catholicism on this forum is not representative of Catholicism IRL.
 
The role of the pope.
The role of the laity (or lack thereof) in any hierarchical decisions.
The sheer quantity of magisterial teaching Catholics are expected to hold true.

There’s more, but as far Catholicism goes (as opposed to Catholics), most of it stems from that.
 
PJM said:
Hi Jerry,

Its a natural and very human reaction to want to be able to prove everything in order to believe it. BUT such a mind set denies the reality of God’s unlimited abilities to do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING Good:)

The practice of religion is termed “Faith.” and Paul tells us: Heb. 11: 1

“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”

The REAL Presence is verified in the bible as Testimony of it is given by 5 separate authors and Jesus [GOD] Himself.

Mt 26:26+28
Mk 14: 22-24
Lk 22: 17-20
Paul 1st Corn 23-30 LOOK THIS UP AND READ IT PRAYRTFULLY
John 6:47-58 [here’s a few of those verses]

[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world

[55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

[56] For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. [57] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.

How my friend, could God and John have been more specific; more precise?🤷

Then the FACT that the every early RCC accepted; believed and PRACTICED this belief is irrefutable. They termed it: “the breaking of the bread”

** Luke 24:35**
And they told what things were done in the way; and how they knew him in the breaking of the bread.

Acts 2:42
And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers

Then GOOGLE “the Real Presence/miracles”

The FACT that this is Jesus Christ [Mt. 28:20] is the GREATEST possible of all good things. Amen!

.
Click to expand...
Heb. 11 is not about miracles. It is about trusting God’s word and acting on it as Noah did.

The bible says nothing of a “Real Presence” .This came about hundreds of years later. What it does confirm is that we know Him no longer after the flesh.2Cor.5:16.

The bible itself says to “prove all things” 1Thes.5:21

I also believe that the disciples who met Jesus on the road were enlightened or had their eyes opened “in the breaking of the bread”, not eating of the flesh.

In John 6, it seems utterly incomprehensible that Jesus would now do a complete switch up on His basic message which had been to believe on Him for salvation and eternal life. Is He really saying “Okay, forget what I was saying before, now here’s the new program. You must now eat my actual flesh!” I don’t think so.

Shalom
Jerry
 
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