What dear friend, do you find strange about Catholicism?

[frangiuliano115]

Fran I don’t mean to be uncharitable; BUT you seem to struggle comprehending the English language

I NEVER said “had to be”; in FACT I wen out of my way to explain that God in an absolute sense did NOT HAVE to do this; but freely choose to do so knowing the life of perfect humility and obedience Mary would freely herself choose to live.

IF your going to quote me; kindly provide MY words; what I’m sharing and not take the liberty to. change what I’m saying to meet your agenda.

God DID what God freely Choose to do; he was under NO obligation to do so.

Were this NOT a public forum I would not even respond to your post.

God Bless and guide you

Patrick

I’ll repost:

Originally Posted by frangiuliano115 View Post
WHAT???

Is this the reason you were taught why the Immaculate Conception had to be?

How about that Mary had to be immaculate for the simple reason that she was going to bear GOD? And since He’s without sin how could her nature have sin.

See. It’s simple really.

At this point we could bring up Mary’s free will versus God CHOOSING her. Luke 1:30.
And also at what point did she become immaculate? Before cenception, at conception or just after conception?

But we won’t get into that.

Fran

If you check you’ll see that I said HAD TO BE, not you. it was MY point, not YOURS.

Yeah. English is a difficult language.

It must be those other 3 languages I speak - they so confuse me.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Wannano View Post

The issue occurs when some one speculates what Jesus told his disciples and makes that (the speculation) a basis for their own teaching

.

the reply

fbl9;13526582:

No arguement with that. Same issue occurs when a church creates a practice from an idea or philosophy that has no direct biblical reference.

MY COMMENTS

Read please the last 2 verses in John 21 & 22 and it ought to be clear that not everything is in the bible.

This is further proven by history. The Bible was not FULLY written until the end of the 1st Century or very early 2nd. Century. Yet the Church [singular] flourished and taught as had the Ancestors by Word of Mouth transfer.

ADD to this the scarcity of writing material AND the high degree of illiteracy.

The Entire Bible was NOT collected and assembled for hundreds of years after the last book was written.

So the idea that everything HAS to be in the bible is but a foolish fable.

God Bless you both

Patrick
Mary Christmas

Add to this the scarcity of writting material AND the degrree

 

[Wannano]

.

the reply
Wannano;13526621:

MY COMMENTS

Read please the last 2 verses in John 21 & 22 and it ought to be clear that not everything is in the bible.

This is further proven by history. The Bible was not FULLY written until the end of the 1st Century or very early 2nd. Century. Yet the Church [singular] flourished and taught as had the Ancestors by Word of Mouth transfer.

ADD to this the scarcity of writing material AND the high degree of illiteracy.

The Entire Bible was NOT collected and assembled for hundreds of years after the last book was written.

So the idea that everything HAS to be in the bible is but a foolish fable.

God Bless you both

Patrick
Mary Christmas

Add to this the scarcity of writting material AND the degrree

Pjm, you are reacting to my statement as though you feel your church is the only one around, read it again. I know there are churches being established today with an unbiblical basis still claiming to be Christian.

 

[PJM]

Shortened to fit space limits [in 2 consecutive POST]

Originally Posted by rcwitness View Post
“it”** after the Priestly prayers are made over it. Rather it is the Spiritual gift of the person of Jesus, who is the Lamb of God.**

MY comments [PJM]

Dear friend

**It is not [just] the “Spirit of Jesus”; **rather it is the GLORIFIED Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ; The ENTIRE Glorified Jesus!; NOT a sign, NOT a symbol, Not a remembrance alone; READ the words as being what our God intended: Literal.John 6 and Paul’s 1st Cor. 11:26-30 are literal. With no indication of anything else, except man’s limited faith prohibiting a right and a REAL understanding a Lack of faith was what caused many disciples to abandon Christ; and at the same time a GREAT Faith permitted others including th Apostles to REMAIN & Believe.

13526759] By now you know that I have experienced Communion in the form of symbolism only. My faith tradition does not involve the use of a priest to mediate, forgive or otherwise come between us and God to obtain God’s favor or presence.

My friend you have an incomplete understanding here. The priest in His role at Mass is far more than a mere intercessor [a role each of us can fill]; the priest in a miracle within a miracle; both a mystery; the priest at the very moment of the Transubstantiation actually become “alter-Christi”; literally “another Christ”.

**Eucharist is
FROM God the Father

OF God the Son

BY God the Holy Spirit**

Christ choose that this could, and WOULD ONLY happen through the hands of His Priest.
**
Read Mt 10:1-2; Jn 17:18 & 20:21**

Cf. As My Father sent ME; so TOO, “I {God] now send YOU” literally

The fullness of Christ and the Holy Spirit are constantly dwelling in us as the Bible teaches

Be CAREFUL here; this can easily be an assumption not born out in fact. Consider this carefully please.

The Bible is a Catholic Book

We choose the OT books AND authored the entire NT.

The Bible was FULLY authored by early 2nd Century

AT THAT TIME THE ONLY "CHRISTIANS’ WERE ALL CATHOLIC; The Protestant reformation was still 1,300 years in the future

This means that what is in the bible was by Catholics and FOR Catholics. So to presume some right to usurp these teachings is not solidly grounded.

I AM NOT SAYING HERE THAT THE HS DOES NOT, OR CANNOT EXIST OUTSIDE OF THE CC! What I AM saying is that one must take care in assuming that the HS works in the same degree of FULLNESS of His Truths [which must be singular per defined issue; and can be nothing else, outside of the only Church that He desired, and actually founded.

**The proliferation of “truths” now taught in thousands of variant way’s within Protestantism; simply cannot, as its impossible even for GOD to hold more than one understanding per defined issue. Even God can not do otherwise.

How could God and His Faith have waited for the Protestant Reformation [Schism from Catholicism already over a Century old; for Wycliffe, Luther Calvin or anyone else to introduce HIS faith-truths?

The twelve remaining in John 6 knew well what Jesus was teaching re the kingdom. I see no instruction from Jesus in John 6 or the Last Supper to have a priest do priestly prayers over the bread and wine to mysteriously change the elements.

Here my friend is the weakness; the fallacy in that line of thought.[abbreviated] 'Jesus SAID “Do THIS in MEMORY of ME”

Mt. 16:18-19"And I [GOD] say to YOU! That thou art Peter; and upon [YOU!]this rock I will build my church [singular implies just 1 set of beliefs], and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to YOU [all of] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Another Literal Teaching.

Mt. 28: 19-20
"Going therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. **Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU **and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world".

Christ gives the mandate and the tools, & protection directly & exclusively to the Apostles and their successors [Mt 10:1-6 compare to Mt 28: 19-20]. Which is why after 2,000 years the CC’s still have just ONE set of FAITH beliefs:thumbsup: SEE Jn 17:18-19

See pt 2

 

[PJM]

Pt 2 of previous post

Yes, rc, I agree with all in your second paragraph and would say that even in a symbolic service of His Remembrance we also experience all those things except for not much mystery and imagination. Yes He said, “This is my body and blood” …He often made statements symbolically in other instances

What you share is true BUT not applicable to Jn 6 & 1st. Cor, 11: 23-30

It goes back to just who the HS is actually protecting and guiding.

Jn. 6: 56-57 “For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. [57] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him”
AND this is** precisely** what takes place in Catholic Holy Communion.

1st Cor. 11: [edited for space] 23-30

***"For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. [24] And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, ***For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself,

HOW my friend can one eat or drink AND BRING DAMNATION to themselves if its just a sign, a symbol, a memory of?

Am I over reacting here? LOOK at the next verse
“not discerning the body of the Lord. Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep”." “Sleep” here in this context means Eternal Damnation! AMEN!

I mean no disrespect to those who believe Transubstantiation is what Jesus taught. I am 65 years old and only heard of it in the last 20 years so please understand that your way is just as hard for me to comprehend as mine is to yours.

Peace to all. Wannano

You have a kind and charitable spirit; that both Jesus and I appreciate. Please understand that I’m NOT shouting here. Just trying to emphasis Gods singular truth.

We Catholics Do get a taste of heaven while still here on earth

Mary Christmas

 

[PJM]

But Mary was supposed to be already without sin in preparation for Jesus - how could she say no to God?

In order for ANYONE to enter into heaven our Souls MUST be perfect [or perfected in Purgatory]

2 Timothy 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

Matthew 5:48
Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

Because God give to us PERFECT Love; God desires that perfect love be returned to Him in return.

In Order for love to BE “perfect” it MUST be freely given.

Mary like each of us was given a mind, intellect AND a Freewill so that She could Perfectly Love God by using these God supplied gifts; each and every time.

MARY too HAD too prove her love and fidelity to God. And this requirement HAD to include at least the OPTION of being ABLE to freely “say no” to God as we do each time we sin.

That Mary FREELY choose NEVER to say “no” to God EVER; is why God choose through the merits of G=Her Son; to grant the extraordinary GIFT of the Immaculate Conception. It was God’s Choice; Mary was never consulted on it:thumbsup:

 

[PJM]

=DHarris1995;13526718]What I believe when it comes to this section of the Bible, is that all denominations of Christianity hold their priests or pastors on a very high pedestal

I can’t speak for pastors outside of the RCC, BUT our Priest are Chosen by God; and therefore deserve [so long as they choose to not betray that trust in God] to be be honored and respected greatly.

JOHN 15:16
“You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.”

For example, I have never personally agreed with the obligation to confess ‘Mortal Sins’ to priests, or the infallibility of the Pope. I see confession to priests as a beautiful practice indeed but very unnecessary for salvation

So allow me to ask a silly question: My friend Did Jesus give ALL of the keys to heaven to Peter or to you? And pt 2. WHY do you suppose that was? Jesus doe not agree with you

Jn 20:19-23
“Jesus said therefore** to them** again: Peace be to you.** As My Father hath sent me, I NOW also send YOU!.** [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive YOU! the Holy Ghost.Whose sins YOU shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins YOU shall retain, they are retained”

As a FYI: Yahweh also used priest in the OT fo sin forgiveness. Lev. chps 5 &6

As scripture tells us, we may confess our sins to God the Father in Heaven

Where? One teaching cannot [impossible] invalidate another.

As for the Pope, if Peter truly was the first Pope, we see in scripture that he as certainly not infallible when speaking the word of God

.

1 The keys to heaven given to only Peter & successors

Jn 21:15-17 Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John,…: Feed my lambs.He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: … He saith to him: Feed my lambs. [17] He said to him the third time:** Simon, son of John, lovest thou me?**… He said to him: Feed my sheep"

Mt. 28:1-20 “Going therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU: and behold I am with YOU! all days, even to the consummation of the world”

Jesus had to show him the way on a several occasions. I see us all as a Communion of Priests, what I mean by this is that we should not be ashamed of our sin or hide it away

Friend, you mean well BUT who give YOU the authority to contradict Jesus? Your assuming rights not given, not approved by Christ.

Another silly question: If Jesus did not MEAN it; why then did He do it? The language he choose could not be more precise or more clear

God Bless you & Mary Christmas

 

[PJM]

Hi Pete,

Another thought, did Jesus have a ‘fallen body’ or under the curse, that is, that He aged as normal fallen man of His time, and would eventually die of old age, had it not been for the Cross ? Another words if His body was post Eden (though never sinning) why all the fuss over residing in a an immaculate womb ?

Blessings

If your asking if Jesus had a MORTAL body like us: YES! He did. That is WHY he was able to physically suffer on the Cross for us.

 

[PJM]

Hi PJM,

Have to think about that one, but it seems contradictory to grace, an unmerited favor, even to see truth. Seems like grace is the condition for Truth, the source of Truth, the channel for Truth. Otherwise a Truth holder could be boastful , even sectarian prone.

Blessings

You GOT IT!

Grace IS thee condition for truth:thumbsup: That is the precise point Father HArdon is making.

God Bless you & Mary Christmas

 

[PJM]

I like to think of it this way:

JESUS IS TRUTH!!

Fran

In which case we ought NOT to second guess His Teachings.

[1] The Two Infallible rules for right understanding of HIS Bible are:

Never ever; can, may or DOES

One verse, passage or teaching EVER have the power or authority tp

Make void, invalidate or override ANOTHER

Verse, passage or teaching.

Were this even the slightest possibility [its not] it would render the entire bible WORTHLESS to tach or learn the [singular] faith 2 Tim 3: 16+17

[2] If you hold or share a belief not FULLY aligned with the RCC; it’s wrong and needs to be changed [Mt. 16:18-19 & 28: 19-20]

God Bless you & Mary Christiams

 

[PJM]

PJM;13528136:

.

the reply

Pjm, you are reacting to my statement as though you feel your church is the only one around, read it again. I know there are churches being established today with an unbiblical basis still claiming to be Christian.

THANK you

For the sake of dialog then:

[1] How many Church’s DID Jesus desire and establish?

[2] How many sets of Faith beliefs did Jesus Himself have and teach?

[3] DOES “truth” have to be singular per defined issue?

God BLESS YOU!

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Hi PJM,

Agree with the not needing part. Just not sure how grace can be merited. Kind of contradiction in terms, not withstanding God’s foreknowledge.

Of course many folks do not have to face such complexities taking the view that she was a normal though righteous Jewish virgin. That Jesus forsook all heavenly privileges, not asking for any extra human privileges (as in an ‘immaculate’, sinless, ever virgin mother) and yet staying within prophecy (a Jewish virgin).

Blessings

That Ben my friend is a GREAT question Thanks

Here’s how Jesus envisioned it:

While grace takes many forms where we have but limited impute

the definition of Grace from Fr. Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary

GRACE. In biblical language the condescension or benevolence (Greek charis) shown by God toward the human race; it is also the unmerited gift proceeding from this benevolent disposition. Grace, therefore, is a totally gratuitous gift on which man has absolutely no claim. Where on occasion the Scriptures speak of grace as pleasing charm or thanks for favors received, this is a derived and not primary use of the term.

As the Church has come to explain the meaning of grace, it refers to something more than the gifts of nature, such as creation or the blessings of bodily health. Grace is the supernatural gift that God, of his free benevolence, bestows on rational creatures for their eternal salvation. The gifts of grace are essentially supernatural. They surpass the being, powers, and claims of created nature, namely sanctifying grace, the infused virtues, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and actual grace. They are the indispensable means necessary to reach the beatific vision. In a secondary sense, grace also includes such blessings as the miraculous gifts of prophecy or healing, or the preternatural gifts of freedom from concupiscence.

The essence of grace, properly so called, is its gratuity, since no creature has a right to the beatific vision, and its finality or purpose is to lead one to eternal life. (Etym. Latin gratia, favor; a gift freely given.) See also ACTUAL GRACE, EFFICACIOUS GRACE, HABITUAL GRACE, JUSTIFYING GRACE, SACRAMENTAL GRACE, SANCTIFYING GRACE, SUFFICIENT GRACE

Grace always remains a TRUE Gift from God. The type of grace and the amount of Grace as a NORM is completely dependent upon God’s Mercy.

That said Sacramental grace which “give the grace that it signifies”** is in-part** reliant on our disposition to receive the grace of that sacrament; and our actually seeking that Sacrament AS a source of God’s grace. Here referring especially to the Sacraments of Confession. Penance/ Reconciliation & and the Most Holy Eucharist.

God is always “asking” [commanding actually] .that we prove our love for him. Because sacraments are in a sense optional [all though essential] man can deny participating in them. Our freewill assent to participate GOD"S way in them, gives God evidence of our love for Him. God then reciprocates by making avail HIS Grace for our effort to show our love for Him.

Sacramental grace than is different than the other forms of grace; in that we CAN initiate the flow of these graces different than our participation in all other forms of grace.

Does that help?

God Bless you,

Patrick
Mary Christmas

.

 

[PJM]

Mary was as “capable” as Eve was. Mary had a free will just as Adam and Eve did, but Mary chose to obey God completely. I don’t care about what “could have been”. I am thankful for her fiat and our Savior. God Bless, Memaw

AMEN

God Bless you

Mary Christmas!

 

[spedteacherita]

In order for ANYONE to enter into heaven our Souls MUST be perfect [or perfected in Purgatory]

2 Timothy 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

**2 Timothy 3:16-17New International Version (NIV)

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.**

Matthew 5:48
Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

Because God give to us PERFECT Love; God desires that perfect love be returned to Him in return.

In Order for love to BE “perfect” it MUST be freely given.

The perfect love was given on the cross as the final atonement for our sins. The curtain that separated man from the Holy of Holies was rent when Jesus took his final breath on that cross. I can’t do anything to merit everlasting life except believe that Jesus did exactly that.

Mary like each of us was given a mind, intellect AND a Freewill so that She could Perfectly Love God by using these God supplied gifts; each and every time.

**MARY too HAD too prove her love and fidelity to God. And this requirement HAD to include at least the OPTION of being ABLE to freely “say no” to God as we do each time we sin.
**
That Mary FREELY choose NEVER to say “no” to God EVER; is why God choose through the merits of G=Her Son; to grant the extraordinary GIFT of the Immaculate Conception. It was God’s Choice; Mary was never consulted on it:thumbsup:

What scriptures tell us that she was immaculately conceived? Could not God the Father have been omniscient enough to have created a perfect space for Jesus’ conception without having an immaculate conception? See this doesn’t make sense to me at all -

 

[DHarris1995]

A wise man said once, ‘anything said before the word ‘but’ is a lie’, as your post demonstrates. And the smiley at the end doesn’t soften the slap.
Welcome to the forum, I’m sure you won’t be here long.

I am sorry, but I have the right to post my opinions and my beliefs on this forum just as much as you. Correct me if I am wrong, but would Jesus try and push someone away for their beliefs and opinions? I say absolutely NOT. You call yourself a Christian but you seem to demonstrate the exact opposite of what you call yourself…

 

[adrift]

What scriptures tell us that she was immaculately conceived?

What scripture says that scriptures contain it all. I can quote scripture that says that not everything is in scripture
Scripture doesn’t declare it out right but there are hints.
The Angel addresses her in a very formal way Hail Full of grace as if that is her name.
There are some translations that translate it as highly favored one while at the same time In Ephesians 1:6 translate is as grace. This site explains it better than I can
Why Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception

Could not God the Father have been omniscient enough to have created a perfect space for Jesus’ conception without having an immaculate conception? See this doesn’t make sense to me at all -

God could choose to do anything He wants but He chose to do it this way maybe because it is His mom? What would you do for your mother?

 

[benhur]

If your asking if Jesus had a MORTAL body like us: YES! He did. That is WHY he was able to physically suffer on the Cross for us.

Thanks , but I meant did Jesus have a mortal body like Adam before the fall or as I think , a body more like you and I, after the fall ? (one would think Adam’s mortal body was perfect, free from any defect, dna/genes ect…).

 

[benhur]

What scripture says that scriptures contain it all. I can quote scripture that says that not everything is in scripture
Scripture doesn’t declare it out right but there are hints.
The Angel addresses her in a very formal way Hail Full of grace as if that is her name.
There are some translations that translate it as highly favored one while at the same time In Ephesians 1:6 translate is as grace. This site explains it better than I can
Why Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception

God could choose to do anything He wants but He chose to do it this way maybe because it is His mom? What would you do for your mother?

While Mary is Jesus physical mom, she is also part of, along with us, His spiritual bride.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

You GOT IT!

Grace IS thee condition for truth:thumbsup: That is the precise point Father HArdon is making.

God Bless you & Mary Christmas

Hi PJM, Strange but the conclusion might be the same that being in truth or in right church is thru grace.Strange because he starts out saying grace is dependent on truth,as in making grace conditional,a contradiction.

Blessings

 

[Protestor]

My dear friends in Christ; What if anything do you find strange about the Catholic Church/ Catholic Faith?

I guess this is more of a question, but here it goes, who gets the big communion wafer? I am not certain, having only been to one mass, but I think that is the thing the priest has in his hands when he does the general blessing over the eucharist. Is it transubstantiated or does it have to be ingested to transubstantiate?