What dear friend, do you find strange about Catholicism?

[benhur]

Consider this;

If Jesus didn’t wish to institute the Seven Sacraments to aid mens possible salvation; why then dis HE institute them?

Hi PJM,

What we have been considering are the differences, or changes, that will be made when He returns. Certainly we will not need Extreme Unction, or the confessional. Not sure if there will be any weddings either, save the Big One.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

What God was willing to accept while the "chosen people [which Jesus calls HIS Chosen Church singular]; is no longer sufficient from God’s perspective. we ARE given more and therefore God MUST expect more from us

We indeed have been given more. Things are to be new. Confessing thru intermediary is old. What is new is that God is now in us, not just with us (or at least much more so than OT). We now have the power to live holier lives. Each of us has Christ in us. So while it is ok to confess one to another, or to a priest, who will say he only absolves as Jesus would, or in His place, we each can also do likewise.The priesthood that was only in one tribe due to sin in OT is now for the entire church, not withstanding church offices and giftings

Blessings

 

[adrift]

Hi PJM,

What we have been considering are the differences, or changes, that will be made when He returns. Certainly we will not need Extreme Unction, or the confessional. Not sure if there will be any weddings either, save the Big One.

Blessings

Jesus gave the Sacraments for us now not when He returns. We of course won’t need them then.

We indeed have been given more. Things are to be new. Confessing thru intermediary is old. What is new is that God is now in us, not just with us (or at least much more so than OT). We now have the power to live holier lives. Each of us has Christ in us. So while it is ok to confess one to another, or to a priest, who will say he only absolves as Jesus would, or in His place, we each can also do likewise.The priesthood that was only in one tribe due to sin in OT is now for the entire church, not withstanding church offices and giftings

Confessing through an intermediary is what Jesus chose how come people think Jesus didn’t know what He was doing? We have no power we must rely on the mercy of God. It is not only ok to confess to one another It is commanded by Jesus to confess to those He has given the power. It wasn’t to just anyone but to the Apostles and those who the Apostles ordained. It was the Apostles He breathed on giving them the Holy Spirit and giving them the power to forgive sins.
Jesus said He didn’t come to destroy but to fulfil and that included the priesthood. The priesthood was no longer going to be just within one tribe but culled from many different men. I don’t believe any of the Apostles was from the Levites yet Jesus made them the new priesthood that would baptize, confirm, marry, offer the Eucharist and forgive sins.

 

[Peter_J]

ooh well yeah that’s horrible, poor people. Im sure it happens in other parts of this world even in this day and age.

Well, there were the Shakers (not exactly “this day and age” I guess). Although I don’t believe they reserved Confession for serious sin, as was done in the early church.

 

[Michael68]

Our Lord and savior Jesus Christ set up the Sacrament of Penance (Confession) through the Apostles. He breathed on them and told them “Whoever’$ sins you forgive are forgiven, whoever’s you retain are retained.” How could the apostles do this if they weren’t hearing confessions?

 

[adrift]

Our Lord and savior Jesus Christ set up the Sacrament of Penance (Confession) through the Apostles. He breathed on them and told them “Whoever’$ sins you forgive are forgiven, whoever’s you retain are retained.” How could the apostles do this if they weren’t hearing confessions?

Great observation. I hope we get an answer.

 

[benhur]

Confessing through an intermediary is what Jesus chose how come people think Jesus didn’t know what He was doing? We have no power we must rely on the mercy of God. It is not only ok to confess to one another It is commanded by Jesus to confess to those He has given the power. It wasn’t to just anyone but to the Apostles and those who the Apostles ordained. It was the Apostles He breathed on giving them the Holy Spirit and giving them the power to forgive sins.
Jesus said He didn’t come to destroy but to fulfil and that included the priesthood. The priesthood was no longer going to be just within one tribe but culled from many different men. I don’t believe any of the Apostles was from the Levites yet Jesus made them the new priesthood that would baptize, confirm, marry, offer the Eucharist and forgive sins.

HI A,

Thank you .Understand. Both sides have their arguments from scripture and history. Both sides have shining (and not so shining) examples of living fruitfully. Dogmatism on this is OK but for sure sometimes God’s grace goes beyond it.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Great observation. I hope we get an answer.(How could the apostles do this if they weren’t hearing confessions?, as posted by Michael)

Hi a,

I would think anyone hanging around here for a length of time would know the answer (rebuttal) to this. It has been posted here and there. It is also good to genuinely know each others biblical and historical rationales. It leads to better understanding in love, and as the Didache says, not so much to contend but to pacify.

Blessings

 

[adrift]

HI A,

Thank you .Understand. Both sides have their arguments from scripture and history. Both sides have shining (and not so shining) examples of living fruitfully. Dogmatism on this is OK but for sure sometimes God’s grace goes beyond it.

Blessings

Of course I understand there are many sides but I also understand that sometimes the sides don’t hold much water and have thumbs in the holes.

Hi a,

I would think anyone hanging around here for a length of time would know the answer (rebuttal) to this. It has been posted here and there. It is also good to genuinely know each others biblical and historical rationales. It leads to better understanding in love, and as the Didache says, not so much to contend but to pacify.

Blessings

What is the rebuttal? I have been here a long time have not seen it perhaps you can give a summary

 

[guanophore]

Like I was saying, confession is between me and god, not between me and a priest. Id rather directly talk to god then the priest down the street.

I know what you mean. I think, though, Jesus knew that we needed to confess to a person because this is how we are healed from shame and guilt.

Please respond to what the Scriptures say…

I think you are missing the point. I gave my answer to this question: Re: What dear friend, do you find strange about Catholicism?

My answer is a response to what I find strange about Catholicism. This isn’t a debate and I am not trying to say my reply is the correct one and you all are wrong, it’s just what I feel is strange regardless of what it says in one scripture or another. Whether it’s right or wrong its my view of what I consider strange. I don’t care if my view is right or wrong on that, I still consider confessing to a priest is strange. All I am doing is replying to the author of this threads question lol

Thank you for responding to the question, Sunlight.

“Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that
you may be healed.” (James 5:16)

Why does the Apostle command this? Could it be that this kind of person to person confession provides a level of healing that cannot be accessed between God and oneself?

Which CAN BE possible ONLY if; I repeat; ONLY IF they are fully aligned with ALL that Christ and for large part the Bible affirms IF, IF rightly understood.

Even God cannot; as an absolute impossibility; cannot hold different faith belefs on the same defined issues.

This means that Catholicism; GOD"S Teachings cannot be in any shape, way or form made subservient to Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin or ANYONE else. That my friend is what your position requires; and it is impossible for it to be true.

God Bless you,

We can always pray that our separated brethren are invicibly ignorant.

I understand that shaving/tonsure/haircuts was also one of the issues involved in the East/West Schism. It is no wonder we exasperate our Lord.

"Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you and put up with you? Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you and put up with you? " (Luke 9:41)

 It's my opinion, just like we should eat healthy, we don't have to, we should be kind to others, we should treat those like we want to be treated, it doesn't always happen. I am just not seeing how confessing to another human being is better than confessing to God. What is the priests role ? like a go between? This is where I am confused. A priest is a human and therefore imperfect and not without sin so I don't understand why confessing to a priest is preferable.

The two are not mutually exclusive. God gave to humans the power to forgive sins, so does it not make sense to confess them to the person who has been given that authority?

When we go to confession, we ARE confessing to God. The priest is there in the Person of Christ. He is not a “go between”, he listens with human ears, and speaks God’s absolution with a human voice.

Obviously Jesus did not think that being without sin was a requirement to hear confessions. The priest is there to be Christ to the penitent.

See, this is where I am confused, why would God be mad if I directly talk to him about my sins instead of a priest? I don’t feel talking to God directly instead of a priest is competition. A priest is a human and therefore imperfect and not without sin so I don’t understand why confessing to a priest is preferable, this is where I am confused. That’s the whole issue I have with priests, they are not without sin themselves so how can

He is not “mad”. Of course we can confess to Him, and we may even feel better when we do, but we can’t go by “feelings”. We need to go by the spiritual reality that Jesus has created. Catholics don’t have this false dichotomy you have created of “Him instead of a priest”. For us, Confession is to God. The priest is there in teh person of Christ.

Bottom line is, your understanding of why Jesus would give this authority to imperfect humans is irrelevant. He chose to do this because this is what we need to be healed.

 

[guanophore]

ApostlePaul:

"…and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. 11This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,… Eph. 3

You seemed to be saying that the Church is not really relevant, but the Apostle seems to think that God has chosen to work THROUGH THE CHURCH.

Of course they will be visible, just not sure will go by past or present church hierarchy names.

Jesus created a visible, hierarchical church. I agree that in the age to come, things will be different.

Well again the excision is not now but when the Lord returns to rule as King of Kings on the Davidic throne, in the future. Paul speaks of this current, better dispensation, and as implicitly compared to the previous OT dispensation. Not sure excision is best word, but maybe. It could be like a transfer, or ‘the next step’.

Blessings

 

[eazyduzit]

Although we have explored this verse before, for any who missed it, here is Matthew Pooles’ Commentary on the verse. John 20:23

Whether Matthew 18:18 be a parallel text to this, I doubt: See Poole on “Matthew 18:18”. Our Lord here speaks of the sins of persons,

Whose soever sins remit, & c.; he saith there, Whatsoever ye shall bind or loose. This text hath caused a great deal of contest. All remission of sins is either authoritative; so it is most true, that none can forgive sin but God; and if we had no Scripture to prove it, yet reason will tell us none can discharge the debtor but the creditor, to whom the debt is owing: or else ministerial; thus he who is not the creditor (amongst men) may remit a debt by virtue of a letter of attorney made to him, authorizing him so to do. The question therefore amongst divines is, Whether Christ in this text hath given authority to his ministers actually to discharge men of the guilt of their sins; or only to declare unto them, that if their repentance and faith be true, their sins are really forgiven them? The former is by many contended for; but it doth not seem reasonable,

1. That God should entrust men with such a piece of his prerogative.
2. That God, who knoweth the falsehood of men’s hearts, and the inability in the best ministers to judge of the truth of any man’s faith or repentance, as also the passions to which they are subject, should give unto any of the sons of men an absolute power under him, and in his name, to discharge any from the guilt of sin; for certain it is, that without true repentance and faith in Christ no man hath his sins forgiven; so as no minister, that knoweth not the hearts of men, can possibly speak with any certainty to any man, saying, his sins are forgiven.

What knowledge the apostles might have by the Spirit of discerning, we cannot say. But certain it is, none hath any such certainty of knowledge now of the truth of any man, declaring his faith and true repentance; from whence it is to me apparent, that no man hath any further power from Christ, than to declare to them, that if indeed they truly believe and repent, their sins are really forgiven. Only the minister, being Christ’s interpreter and ambassador, and better able to judge of true faith and repentance than others, (though not certainly and infallibly), such declarations from a faithful, able minister, are of more weight and authority than from others. And this is the most I can conceive should be in this matter; and that if by those words any further power be granted to the apostles, it was by reason of that power of discerning of spirits, 1 Corinthians 12:10, which ordinary ministers since the apostles’ times, or in latter ages, cannot with any modesty pretend unto.

I would only like us to see that it is not so easily interpreted as some see it. It is more implications than you get from a quick surface look.

 

[adrift]

Although we have explored this verse before, for any who missed it, here is Matthew Pooles’ Commentary on the verse. John 20:23
…

I believe he makes some errors in his reasoning.

1. He reduces his comments to just one verse versus 21 and 22 should also being included.
2. His contention that sins could not be forgiven by the Apostles because they could not know the heart of those they would forgive sins is pure opinion. An opinion which he does not justify through scripture while ignoring scripture. His opinion is not totally without merit. It is why a penitent does not just go to a priest and say forgive my sins but must instead enumerate what he has done.
3. I disagree that it is not easily interpreted. I believe what Jesus, to me, plainly said.

“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, **He breathed on them **and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

They aren’t forgiving sins on their own but by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

 

[adrift]

John Chrysostom, St [347-407 AD] [Homily 41 on First Corinthians](http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_confession.htm)

…Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21–23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven" …(The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

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