L
Lormar
Guest
Would you like to meet one?
I haven’t worn pants for almost eighteen years.
- Status
I haven’t worn pants for almost eighteen years.
C
Corki
Guest
I know there are some (pleased to “meet” you). But I know a lot of traditional Catholic women and they all wear pants on occasion - though not to Mass.Would you like to meet one?
So, it’s not a defining characteristic as the OP stated.
T
TRH1292
Guest
No way. I don’t think that’s accurate at all to say. I don’t see how you can say that Traditional Catholics believe only the Latin Mass is valid.
B
Brendan_64
Guest
To believe that would make someone in direct opposition to the teachings of our Church.
Our Church does not promote sacrilege, by giving Communion in the hand.
Our Church teaches that the OF Mass is equally valid to the EF Mass.
All Catholics are bound to submit to Church teaching, as explained to us by Rome.
C
clem456
Guest
Catholicism is traditional by nature. It is also progressive, and lives fully in the present as well. Labels can never do Catholicism justice.
N
Neofight
Guest
It’s not defined. It seems only to be a label some give themselves, or is hung on them by others.
It’s all pretty silly, in my opinion.
S
spiderweb
Guest
Totally false information. Having gone to a Tridentine Mass parish (now part of the FSSP) my entire life, we do not believe that it is the only valid mass.
If receiving the Eucharist in the hand is sacrilege then it should have never been done, EVER. Yet it was done and described how to properly recieve in the hand in the 4th or 5th centuries (I believe by St. Cyril of Jerusalem but I could be mistaken on the name).
The feast days, ember days, etc. are disciplinary not doctrinal by nature. The Church assigned the dates and disciplines (like fasting) for specific dates. The Church can also change these things or modify them. This is the authority given to the Pope’s and Bishops by Jesus when he gave the Apostles the authority to bind AND loose.
As for Sedevacantists and other groups in schism that call themselves “traditionalists”, my opinion is they have seperated themselves from the Church that Jesus founded. As has been dogmatically defined throughout the history of the Church, to knowingly and willingly reject the Church founded by Jesus and her teachings, is to reject Jesus. The people in these groups need lots of prayers.
A
AllSeasons
Guest
Gosh, I didn’t realize this was such a touchy subject! Not sure I understand why, to be honest.
D
dshix
Guest
For a lot of people, it is indeed a very touchy subject. I share in your puzzlement.
The only time I ever get angry is when people try to label me or other Traditional Catholics as something which we are not, which was perfectly manifested with tommydude’s [post=11406652]post[/post].
The only time I ever get angry is when people try to label me or other Traditional Catholics as something which we are not, which was perfectly manifested with tommydude’s [post=11406652]post[/post].
S
spiderweb
Guest
It has nothing to do with your original topic. There are truely Traditional Catholics who are in union with the Catholic Church, and there are other people that call themselves Traditional Catholics who are not in union with the Church. The ones not in union with the church often times (not always) promote very rigid interpretation of “tradition” that can be borderline heretical.
People who do not understand this can be easily confused into thinking that all “traditionalist” are part of a schismatic group or believe as they do.
S
sw85
Guest
None of these really get at traditionalism. For instance most people would call me a traditionalist even though I do not attend the TLM regularly because there are none nearby. I don’t think most (or at least many) trads object in toto to the use of NFP although they might disapprove of the careless abandon with which it’s used today. Skirts and veils both are a logical extension of traditionalism but not an essential component of it.
Traditional(ist) Catholicism is simply a devotion/orientation toward the synthesis of faith and culture which existed prior to Vatican II and which is most perfectly expressed in the traditional Latin Mass, but which also expresses itself in a number of other ways. In contrast to this, what we might call the nontrad Catholic either rejects/repudiates that particular synthesis or else denies the need for such a synthesis generally.
G
GratefulFred
Guest
This short list presumes way too much.
One can attend the Tridentine Mass and not understand a word of it and not believe in the true presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Many protestants do not believe in the presence of Christ.
One can be celibate so contraception or NFP is not an issue.
One can wear sexy skirts, but real they should wear more. Are dresses allowed?
My point is being a Traditional Catholic is much more than these three weak standards.
One can do these three and not care a wit if they do all the other things that our Catholic Faith teaches. For example,
Do we consciously try to love others as best we can?
Do we try to live a life of humble service?
Do we receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation more than once a year?
Do we vote according to our Catholic moral standard or do we promote relativism?
Do we defend our Priests, Bishops, and Pope whenever we hear an attack?
It is one thing to be seen as being a Traditional Catholic by claiming to adhere to three short standards and quite another to actually live the fullness of our Catholic Faith.
O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
Didn’t sound disrespectful to me at all. Given the differences between the two forms it is only logical that some of the symbolism present in the more complex* form than the less complex form.Doesn’t sound like respect to me, but maybe that’s my fault.
*For clarity- complex here refers to how the EF has more procedural steps/items than the OF. If I had more than a very shallow self education on the EF I’d provide examples as a means to better explain what I mean.
G
GratefulFred
Guest
I would also say that Christ gave Peter and the succeeding Popes the power to bind and loose. Times and needs change. So should not a Traditional Catholic do his or her best to follow the rules established by the Pope?
Did not Paul and Peter set the standard of what really mattered and not really mattered when the issue of Gentile circumcision was settled? Would a Traditional Catholic think circumcision is still mandatory in spite of Peter and Paul?
The early Masses were in the catacombs or private homes. Must Mass today only be celebrated there?
Was the bread of Holy Communion in the early days or times exactly like the host of today?
My point is, we cannot pin point any particular time when it all was exactly as it should be and any change after that unique moment approved by a Pope is some how not Traditional. Such concerns divert us from the essential elements of our attempts to live our Faith in the spirit of love and humility. IMO.
Did not Paul and Peter set the standard of what really mattered and not really mattered when the issue of Gentile circumcision was settled? Would a Traditional Catholic think circumcision is still mandatory in spite of Peter and Paul?
The early Masses were in the catacombs or private homes. Must Mass today only be celebrated there?
Was the bread of Holy Communion in the early days or times exactly like the host of today?
My point is, we cannot pin point any particular time when it all was exactly as it should be and any change after that unique moment approved by a Pope is some how not Traditional. Such concerns divert us from the essential elements of our attempts to live our Faith in the spirit of love and humility. IMO.
L
Lormar
Guest
E
edwest2
Guest
There is no such thing as a Traditional Catholic. There are only Catholics who believe what the Church teaches or who pick and choose. And we can’t tell which are which just by looking at them.
Labeling is divisive.
Peace,
Ed
Labeling is divisive.
Peace,
Ed
D
dshix
Guest
I agree with you insofar as there is (or should be) no material difference between “Traditional” or not. That the word term exists means that there is already a separation there.
However, since the word is used, and people use it to identify themselves (as do I; I do so that other may be able to have some idea of my background at a glance) it is necessary to understand what it means and what it DOES NOT mean, the latter being more important, apparently.
However, since the word is used, and people use it to identify themselves (as do I; I do so that other may be able to have some idea of my background at a glance) it is necessary to understand what it means and what it DOES NOT mean, the latter being more important, apparently.
E
edwest2
Guest
All I know is, people are individuals. I do not talk to a fellow Catholic to find out if he or she is a [fill in the blank]. If a particular subject comes up, we can discuss it but I’ve never met a Catholic who fits neatly into a category. Besides, some subjects and occasions are just not appropriate to bring up. For example, it’s none of my business if a Catholic couple I know uses artificial birth control. That is their private decision about an intimate matter between husband and wife. And I do not walk up to women and ask them why they aren’t wearing a skirt or dress or why their head is covered or uncovered in Church. If the Holy Spirit shows that it is appropriate to talk to a fellow Catholic then I will.
biblestudytools.com/proverbs/25-11-compare.html
Again, creating labeled camps among Catholics is divisive and does not lead to understanding in most cases. More often than not, it comes off as purely secular labels like politics. I am not a liberal or conservative, or perfect. I am obedient or not. And people - Catholics - should not self-identify by party labels. It degenerates into, “Well, I’m a Liberal Catholic and you Traditionalists are the problem” kind of thing.
It is divisive.
Peace,
Ed
C
corsair
Guest
Looking at the OP’s criteria, I will agree with most of it; except my wife wears a blouse with her skirt. and shoes and a coat when its cold 
There are many other points that could be made but every time we get into discussing Traditionalism vrs. traditionalism; things get a little dicey.
There are many other points that could be made but every time we get into discussing Traditionalism vrs. traditionalism; things get a little dicey.
J
JReducation
Guest
This is an interesting thread. I have to answer the question by using my story, because it’s easier to answer from my lived experience than from concepts.
I’m a Traditional Catholic.
What does that mean?
I’m faithful to the Church and to the papacy from Peter to Francis. I accept that the Holy Father has the authority to govern the Church and to make prudential decisions and that his power and authority are not limited to faith and morals; therefore, our obedience is not limited to faith and morals, but to all legitimate governance.
I’m faithful to the life of prayer that I’ve inherited from Catholic Spirituality and to the sacramental life of the Church, regardless of its external form. The Sacraments in any form, as long as they are valid and legal, remain our surest font of grace.
I also understand that the tradition of the Church is very broad. Within that tradition there are smaller traditions, for example my Franciscan tradition.
Therefore, as a Franciscan, I embrace material poverty and identify with those who are materially poor by living among them, serving them and seeing Christ in them as well as taking Christ to them. I submit to the wishes of my bishop and my pope as was the mind of my Holy Father Francis. I also submit to the authority of the general chapter of my community as has been our tradition since Francis started general chapters in 1223. And I understand that I have no right to feelings or opinions of my own that are in conflict with Francis, my superiors, my bishop or my pope, except in matters of sin. This is the perfection of poverty and charity.
As superior, I try to govern as Francis commands, to be a mother to my brothers by nurturing them, encouraging them, correcting them, protecting them, and forming them to live in the Church and the greater world beyond the institutional Church.
I subscribe to the idea the Holy Sacrifice of the mass, in all its forms, is sacred. The forms are different, but each has layers of richness that God has allowed for our good. It is up to us to open our eyes and search through those layers. I’m not tied to any form of the mass in the Roman Rite, or any rite in the Universal Church, because they’re all part of our Catholic tradition. I understand that there are points of conception where certain traditions are born and if we are faithful to the intent of the Church and carry them forward as the Church envisions them, eventually, they will become woven into the fabric of ecclesial life and tradition.
I subscribe to everything that the Church teaches on matters of faith and morals and at the same time, like my father, St. Francis, I believe that there are times when we must revise how we say things depending of our audience and cultural context. So in this sense, even the revision of the delivery is traditional, because this concept and permission was granted to us by our founder 800 years ago.
In my personal life, I have in my possession two habits, one pair of pants and one pair of jeans, three sets of underwear, no medical insurance, not retirement plan, no house of my own nor owned by our community. We live in borrowed houses or rented houses. This is part of Franciscan tradition, which the Church has blessed, because she believes that it leads to salvation. The Church does not approve of any way of life that is not conducive to the perfection of charity and the salvation of the soul.
We keep our liturgy dignified but simple as did Francis and Clare. The focus is on the three points of our Franciscan tradition: Christ’s sacrifice, the Word, and the brothers gathered to offer the sacrifice served by one of our own who presides through his priestly ministry. But he presides, not as one who is above, but as a brother who is called to the priesthood of Jesus Christ so that he may serve his brothers.
Like our early Franciscans and our brothers through the centuries, I believe that every man and woman, regardless of creed is a brother and sisters redeemed by Christ. Regardless of their relationship with God, they are in a much better situation than I am, because to whom much is given, of him much is required. And I acknowledge that I have received the fullness of faith, but have not given back proportionately. So I can only serve those people with great humility and docility, inviting them to know Christ and to walk the road of penance and conversion with me, not pushing them, because I have betrayed him. They have not, because they do not know him as I have come to know him.
Finally, I’m a son of the Immaculate and I depend on her prayers and her guidance to do what her son tells me.
I’m a Traditional Catholic.
What does that mean?
I’m faithful to the Church and to the papacy from Peter to Francis. I accept that the Holy Father has the authority to govern the Church and to make prudential decisions and that his power and authority are not limited to faith and morals; therefore, our obedience is not limited to faith and morals, but to all legitimate governance.
I’m faithful to the life of prayer that I’ve inherited from Catholic Spirituality and to the sacramental life of the Church, regardless of its external form. The Sacraments in any form, as long as they are valid and legal, remain our surest font of grace.
I also understand that the tradition of the Church is very broad. Within that tradition there are smaller traditions, for example my Franciscan tradition.
Therefore, as a Franciscan, I embrace material poverty and identify with those who are materially poor by living among them, serving them and seeing Christ in them as well as taking Christ to them. I submit to the wishes of my bishop and my pope as was the mind of my Holy Father Francis. I also submit to the authority of the general chapter of my community as has been our tradition since Francis started general chapters in 1223. And I understand that I have no right to feelings or opinions of my own that are in conflict with Francis, my superiors, my bishop or my pope, except in matters of sin. This is the perfection of poverty and charity.
As superior, I try to govern as Francis commands, to be a mother to my brothers by nurturing them, encouraging them, correcting them, protecting them, and forming them to live in the Church and the greater world beyond the institutional Church.
I subscribe to the idea the Holy Sacrifice of the mass, in all its forms, is sacred. The forms are different, but each has layers of richness that God has allowed for our good. It is up to us to open our eyes and search through those layers. I’m not tied to any form of the mass in the Roman Rite, or any rite in the Universal Church, because they’re all part of our Catholic tradition. I understand that there are points of conception where certain traditions are born and if we are faithful to the intent of the Church and carry them forward as the Church envisions them, eventually, they will become woven into the fabric of ecclesial life and tradition.
I subscribe to everything that the Church teaches on matters of faith and morals and at the same time, like my father, St. Francis, I believe that there are times when we must revise how we say things depending of our audience and cultural context. So in this sense, even the revision of the delivery is traditional, because this concept and permission was granted to us by our founder 800 years ago.
In my personal life, I have in my possession two habits, one pair of pants and one pair of jeans, three sets of underwear, no medical insurance, not retirement plan, no house of my own nor owned by our community. We live in borrowed houses or rented houses. This is part of Franciscan tradition, which the Church has blessed, because she believes that it leads to salvation. The Church does not approve of any way of life that is not conducive to the perfection of charity and the salvation of the soul.
We keep our liturgy dignified but simple as did Francis and Clare. The focus is on the three points of our Franciscan tradition: Christ’s sacrifice, the Word, and the brothers gathered to offer the sacrifice served by one of our own who presides through his priestly ministry. But he presides, not as one who is above, but as a brother who is called to the priesthood of Jesus Christ so that he may serve his brothers.
Like our early Franciscans and our brothers through the centuries, I believe that every man and woman, regardless of creed is a brother and sisters redeemed by Christ. Regardless of their relationship with God, they are in a much better situation than I am, because to whom much is given, of him much is required. And I acknowledge that I have received the fullness of faith, but have not given back proportionately. So I can only serve those people with great humility and docility, inviting them to know Christ and to walk the road of penance and conversion with me, not pushing them, because I have betrayed him. They have not, because they do not know him as I have come to know him.
Finally, I’m a son of the Immaculate and I depend on her prayers and her guidance to do what her son tells me.
- Status