What determines communion with Rome?

[Alethiaphile]

If I accept Orthodox Chrismation does that automatically separate me from communion with the Bishop of Rome, and, if so, why? I think the answer to the first question is probably “yes”, so I’m really more asking the second. To be specific, according to what I understand, to receive chrismation, I will not have to renounce the pope. All I have to do is embrace what the Orthodox Church teaches, which I pretty much do anyway.
If I can, I would prefer to remain in official communion with the pope, but I have been strongly attracted to Orthodoxy for awhile, both for theological and practical (mainly, the desire to be part of a smaller Christian community) reasons.

 

[Aramis]

If I accept Orthodox Chrismation does that automatically separate me from communion with the Bishop of Rome, and, if so, why? I think the answer to the first question is probably “yes”, so I’m really more asking the second. To be specific, according to what I understand, to receive chrismation, I will not have to renounce the pope. All I have to do is embrace what the Orthodox Church teaches, which I pretty much do anyway.
If I can, I would prefer to remain in official communion with the pope, but I have been strongly attracted to Orthodoxy for awhile, both for theological and practical (mainly, the desire to be part of a smaller Christian community) reasons.

It depends entirely on the circumstances. If you do so because you are not confirmed, and in an area with only orthodox churches, no, it doesn’t, since you are permitted to approach for th sacraments when unable to do so in the Catholic church.

If, however, you do so because you are translating to the Orthodox, you do abandon the church, tho’ not the faith. And that is itself an issue of severing your ties with the see of Peter.

 

[mikee]

Alethiaphile:

If I can, I would prefer to remain in official communion with the pope, but I have been strongly attracted to Orthodoxy for awhile

Have you considered joining the Eastern churches in communion with Rome?

I think you also have to think about what the Eastern Orthodox themselves have to say about your desire to receive chrismation in this state. They are probably a lot stricter when it comes to these things.

As for breaking communion with the Pope, that would require an act of schism on your part. I’m not sure if receiving the sacraments ilicitly, alone, will do; but I don’t see how it could be encouraged from the standpoint of Rome.

 

[Formosus]

Recieving Crismation in an Orthodox Church (without a good cause, such as lack of Catholic clergy to administer it) is a schismatic act because it is a public act of separation from the Catholic Church.

 

[collin_nunis]

Hi Alethia,

Christ is among us!

Like you, I have always related better to Orthodox theology. Nonetheless, because I was raised Catholic, and because I believe that faith is more relevant when lived in a family context, the only option that I had was the Eastern Rite. The experience, theology, and spirituality is no different than that of the Orthodox churches and better yet, you still remain in communion with Rome.

 

[JuanCarlos]

If you accept an Orthodox Chrismation, you are chrismated into the EO Church- you could not participate in the sacraments of the Catholic Church until you went to Confession. Consider an Eastern Catholic Church- theology of the East, union with the Pope.

 

[collin_nunis]

Canonically, Orthodox are allowed to partake of Catholic sacraments but that would just be defeating the purpose. Why be Orthodox when you want to receive Catholic sacraments? That would be like “I don’t want to live under your rules, but I still want an allowance from you”. Not a nice gesture.

 

[Alethiaphile]

Like you, I have always related better to Orthodox theology. Nonetheless, because I was raised Catholic, and because I believe that faith is more relevant when lived in a family context, the only option that I had was the Eastern Rite. The experience, theology, and spirituality is no different than that of the Orthodox churches and better yet, you still remain in communion with Rome.

Well, unfortunately that has not been my experience with Eastern Catholicism. At the Ruthenian community I’ve attended, the priest, who doubles as a priest at the Latin rite masses, waters down the theology pretty much. There are no regular confessions or vespers in the Byzantine Rite. I was raised Protestant, so family does not come into it for me.

 

[Formosus]

Have you tried attending a different Eastern Catholic parish? I am not sure where you live, but there might be others near by that are avalible to you? As for “regular confession”, you could just go ask the priest before/after Divine Liturgy for a confession.

Please do not take this offensivly, but could it be that your difficulties with the Catholic Church stem,in some way, from your protestant upbringing?

 

[collin_nunis]

Well, unfortunately that has not been my experience with Eastern Catholicism. At the Ruthenian community I’ve attended, the priest, who doubles as a priest at the Latin rite masses, waters down the theology pretty much. There are no regular confessions or vespers in the Byzantine Rite. I was raised Protestant, so family does not come into it for me.

Alethia,

What you’ve experienced in the Ruthenian church would be an after-effect of something that the East, in general is still trying to fight off - Latinization. However, some churches have somewhat successfully staved off all Latin influence and I’d have to suggest that the East does not stop at the Ruthenian churches. There are also Melkite, Ukrainian, Russian, and Romanian churches for you to visit, and probably play a role there. There is bound to be more than just one Eastern church in your area, I hope.

 

[steve_b]

It depends entirely on the circumstances. If you do so because you are not confirmed, and in an area with only orthodox churches, no, it doesn’t, since you are permitted to approach for th sacraments when unable to do so in the Catholic church.

If, however, you do so because you are translating to the Orthodox, you do abandon the church, tho’ not the faith. And that is itself an issue of severing your ties with the see of Peter.

 

[dvdjs]

Originally Posted by Alethiaphile

Well, unfortunately that has not been my experience with Eastern Catholicism. At the Ruthenian community I’ve attended, the priest, who doubles as a priest at the Latin rite masses, waters down the theology pretty much. There are no regular confessions or vespers in the Byzantine Rite. I was raised Protestant, so family does not come into it for me.

Alethia,

What you’ve experienced in the Ruthenian church would be an after-effect of something that the East, in general is still trying to fight off - Latinization. However, some churches have somewhat successfully staved off all Latin influence and I’d have to suggest that the East does not stop at the Ruthenian churches. There are also Melkite, Ukrainian, Russian, and Romanian churches for you to visit, and probably play a role there. There is bound to be more than just one Eastern church in your area, I hope.

Actually, I suspect that what Alethiaphile is referring to is not related to the Ruthenian church or to Latinization, at least in the usual sense of the term. Alethiaphile has used very similar language previously to describe a community in Denver led by a Russian Catholic priest, who was formerly OCA before converting to the Catholic Church.

See the previous thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=273134&page=7

 

[collin_nunis]

Yes, Fr. Chrysostom Frank… he’s a biritual priest. A friend of mine in Malaysia (whom I met and spent time with before I flew off to Australia) was a part of his Byzantine-Rite community.

 

[Aramis]

The faith of the Orthodox is the same as that of the Byzantine Catholics; the ecclesiology and hierarchy are different.

Translating to the Orhtodox will not require abandoning the elementsof the Catholic Faith that don’t involve the ecclesiology.

 

[Diak]

Collin - Fr. Chrysostom also teaches at the Latin seminary in Denver as well, as does his wife.

As has been mentioned, the situation of Russian Catholics with two vacant exarchates (Harbin for the diaspora and one inside Russia) is anomalous. With the death of +Andrei (Katkov) in the late 1990s both have been left vacant. Fr. Sergei Golovanov has labored tirelessly in his Omsk region and elsewhere, and Bishop +Yulian (Gbur) of the UGCC has made several pastoral visits at the request of the faithful.

Fr. Chrysostom was also involved in mission work in South Africa for a while - since the OCA does not have a hierarchy there I believe he was working under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

Actually he and his community are working on a situation similar to that of the Russian Catholic community of St. Andrew’s in El Segundo, namely they remain Russian Catholic but have a “relation” with a Greek Catholic bishop for sacramental needs (most notably ordinations of minor orders, deacons, etc.) in their own ritual tradition. In the case of St. Elizabeth they will be working with Bishop John Michael Botean rather than the Melkites as in the case of St. Andrew’s.

Three of the current Russian Catholic priests in the diaspora (Fr. Romanos Russo, Fr. Lawrence Cross, and Fr. Alexei Smith) have their priestly incardination through the Melkites.

 

[collin_nunis]

Collin - Fr. Chrysostom also teaches at the Latin seminary in Denver as well, as does his wife.

As has been mentioned, the situation of Russian Catholics with two vacant exarchates (Harbin for the diaspora and one inside Russia) is anomalous. With the death of +Andrei (Katkov) in the late 1990s both have been left vacant. Fr. Sergei Golovanov has labored tirelessly in his Omsk region and elsewhere, and Bishop +Yulian (Gbur) of the UGCC has made several pastoral visits at the request of the faithful.

Fr. Chrysostom was also involved in mission work in South Africa for a while - since the OCA does not have a hierarchy there I believe he was working under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

Actually he and his community are working on a situation similar to that of the Russian Catholic community of St. Andrew’s in El Segundo, namely they remain Russian Catholic but have a “relation” with a Greek Catholic bishop for sacramental needs (most notably ordinations of minor orders, deacons, etc.) in their own ritual tradition. In the case of St. Elizabeth they will be working with Bishop John Michael Botean rather than the Melkites as in the case of St. Andrew’s.

Three of the current Russian Catholic priests in the diaspora (Fr. Romanos Russo, Fr. Lawrence Cross, and Fr. Alexei Smith) have their priestly incardination through the Melkites.

Yes, indeed. Fr. Lawrence Cross is a part of our Melkite Eparchy.

 

[steve_b]

The faith of the Orthodox is the same as that of the Byzantine Catholics; the ecclesiology and hierarchy are different.

Translating to the Orhtodox will not require abandoning the elementsof the Catholic Faith that don’t involve the ecclesiology.

I’m thinking of Cyprians words

If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he confidence that he is in the Church?

---

This suggests to me that Church and faith are linked, not seperate.

 

[Alethiaphile]

Actually, I suspect that what Alethiaphile is referring to is not related to the Ruthenian church or to Latinization, at least in the usual sense of the term. Alethiaphile has used very similar language previously to describe a community in Denver led by a Russian Catholic priest, who was formerly OCA before converting to the Catholic Church.
See the previous thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=273134&page=7

Just getting back to this; yes, the Byzantine “community” of Sts. Cyril and Methodius, pastored by Fr. Chrysostom Frank, is what I was referring to. I honestly thought it was Ruthenian, I apologize for that mistake.