"What did God do before he created the universe?"

[James_S_Saint]

The person who wrote that falls in the category of absolutely clueless. “If I can’t understand it, it can’t be known.” “If Science hasn’t proclaimed it, old people certainly don’t know anything about it.”

But then, why ask a garage mechanic how to design a fuel efficient car?

 

[surritter]

On the contrary. That is NOT what is implied by what I said. Please think again about what I said.

“Because the cause of the universe existing is eternal.…”, that “cause” being God - First Cause, “..the universe that God causes must also be eternal.”.

Hold on. Let’s look at this quote once again…
I agree that “the cause of the universe existing is eternal.” But you go on to say that the universal must also be eternal. Why is that a necessary follow-on? Some might even take that as borderline Pantheism (God IS the universe.) However, from a logic point of view the statement also doesn’t make sense. It’s like saying “I just graduated from engineering school, therefore every bridge that I will build is already built.”
Perhaps you’re saying it because – unlike the engineering graduate – God exists outside of time, and I’ll develop that idea below. But my point is that that sentence on its own is illogical.

You are presuming that time only relates to the physical universe. Time relates to ANY change whatsoever. Time is a concept that means “relative change” - of ANYTHING relative to ANYTHING else. Physical universe or not, if anything changes at all, time exists. That means that God, the cause of time, could not already be within time just as the phrase, “outside of time” indicates. But it also means that God, who is also said to never change, cannot change nor can anything else without that change being the advent of time.

So far, I can buy this…

That means that God, the FIRST Cause, caused something, which means that something changed. At that point, time exists.

Ah, but why do you insist that God caused something from all eternity? What I mean is, supposing we say that the universe had a finite beginning and God existed before that, why do you insist he was “causing” things before then? I think you are confusing the immutability of God (He never changes) with the power to cause (He can effect change).

So nothing at all can change before time itself exists.

Right! And since God by definition is unchangeable, He is not bound by the statement you just made – He in fact did exist before time even though He was not “changing.” Ergo, God’s existence is apart from the universe’s existence, which is contrary to your earlier statement.

 

[twinc]

Continued from above…

For Catholic and other Christian posters here, how would you respond to the objections quoted in this and the above post?

This is typical error upon error and confusion upon confusion by the opposition to negate the Bible by just quoting an out of context and individual interpretation and opinion and almost demanding acceptance - there is no need to accept ones own or anyone else’s possible wacky,way out interpretations when the Bible itself provides the explanation of Genesis.1:2 - in this wise see what our inerrant first Pope has to say at 2Peter 3:5&6 - twinc

 

[James_S_Saint]

Right! And since God by definition is unchangeable, He is not bound by the statement you just made – He in fact did exist before time even though He was not “changing.” Ergo, God’s existence is apart from the universe’s existence, which is contrary to your earlier statement.

It is not contrary, but I’m not going to keep repeating over and over. I never said anything about the universe and God being the same thing, quite the contrary.

 

[James_S_Saint]

Actually you might want to read this thread, God is the Reason, not the Instigation
Or this one; Before God??
And/or This one; First Cause… Did you mean Cause or BEcause?
And/or This one; Dear Thomas; Cause of Causality; In the Beginning…

 

[warpspeedpetey]

"If God always existed then he must have occupied both time and space.

ask him why G-d must exist in time and space? its a bald assertion. he probably doesnt know why other than it seems to make sense to him.

All things must have a logical start and finish and by merely stating that he was a continuum creates more questions than answers."

here is another bald assertion. not having a beginning or end is the point of the word eternal. this probably springs from an erroneous understanding of the common question, “why is there something rather than nothing?” the answer of courrse, is that there is no such thing as nothing. any set with a null value is something. its a set with null value. there is no choice but for G-d to exist because it is not possible for “nothing to exist” the mere phrase is an oxymoron.

I’m relatively new to apologetics so, I was wondering if anyone could offer some ideas of how to respond to the objection mentioned above?

Thanks.

you might want to send him here. his questions will just add up and this is a good place to have questions.

 

[jdobbins]

“What did God do with his time before he created the universe?”

That was a question I was asked recently.

I responded to this person that because God is eternal (timeless) and created time, itself, He always existed and has no beginning and no end, thus the question was flawed.

The person who asked the above question, also asked after my response:

“If God always existed then he must have occupied both time and space. All things must have a logical start and finish and by merely stating that he was a continuum creates more questions than answers.”

I’m relatively new to apologetics so, I was wondering if anyone could offer some ideas of how to respond to the objection mentioned above?

Thanks.

The response you received dodges the original question and mischaracterizes the nature of God.
God is infinite, omnipotent, and immutable. He operates outside of time and therefore is not subject to sequential restrictions. He is always in Act, and therefore what He does, He has always done, and allways will do. What God did before He created the universe, and with it, time, He still does and always will do. God does not do thing in the sense we do things. He simply wills, and it becomes. His single act of the will created the universe and all that goes with it, including the laws of physics and creation of all our souls, including when each thing would come into being. God does something once, does it perfectly, and never repeats Himself. His infinite power is evident in the unique nature of all creation. You never find two snowflakes exactly alike, two leaves exactly alike, two trees exacly alike, inspite of their common nature. His relationship with each of us is also unique because He has created each of us unique. So, God does not sit in heaven doing new things, which is hard for us, who are time-bound to grasp. Time, essentially, is a way of measuring physical change. God, operating outside of time, does not change, and therefore the notion that He did things before He created the universe and then does things after Creation, fails to recognize the nature of God.
Why God must have this nature if He is God, why God cannot have a physical body, and why the Incarnation was such a magnificent event in human history, is beyond the scope of this response, but can be found in the writings of the giants of philosophy from Aristotle to Aquinas and others.

 

[a_priori]

God exists outside of time, so the question is a non sequitur.

We obviously can’t understand the concept of “outside of time,” so it’s perfectly normal to ask the question, though.

Ditto

 

[johnnykins]

Maybe it’s already been answered, but I always thought God played 3 handed Hearts before He created the Universe. An eon or 2 of that is enough to drive even God to create something!

 

[Douglas_Kraeger]

It is not contrary, but I’m not going to keep repeating over and over. I never said anything about the universe and God being the same thing, quite the contrary.

I have a question. When you say that the universe (and therefore time also) is eternal, do you mean it has no beginning and no end? If it had no beginning, how is it part of creation? How is God its Creator? If you say the universe is eternal because The Cause (God) is always present and therefore because the Cause is present, the univese must be caused, **Is it possible **that you are placing a limitation on God as a result of finite human reasoning? An, “If I can not understand it, it is not possible!” sort of thing?
If God is the creator of space, time and everything that exists ‘outside’ of God, bringing into existence that which had no existence, then there would be no space to take up before it was created, only God, and no time because it had not been created either. This may be hard to imagine, but assume there is ‘space’ and God is in that space, Taking up space. Then God is not infinite, there would be something other than God, space.
The original question:
What would God be “doing”? Because God is infinite spirit, perfectly simple, with one, infinite, always in the present tense thought: He would be “doing” everything He is"doing" now, all at the same once. We see it in a sequencial way, time passes, one event then another. To God, He does everything He does ALL at once, always. He is now creating space and time, judging everyone at the last judgement and creating Adam and Eve, and talking to Moses, etc…etc…, He is that far above us. Therefore He must be completely “above” the time He “created”, as we can know and understand it.
Some people, might not want a God that is so infinitely above us, but,wouldn’t it take such an infinite God to love us inspite of our sins and to be able to bring about His Kingdom where He is all in all, everything to everyone, all without violating anyone’s free will, all by Grace, gift of Jesus on the Cross?

 

[centurionguard]

God exists outside of time, so the question is a non sequitur.

We obviously can’t understand the concept of “outside of time,” so it’s perfectly normal to ask the question, though.

After reading through this entire thread I like most the answers you have given.

Given the OP’s original question it would seem to suggest that any logical answer that we could give from a purely scientific or theological reference based on the limitations of human intellect and understanding of God the Creator would be very incalculable.

Just the finite reality of time itself is a profound concept. If there is one particular quality of God that He has revealed to us is His for a lack of a better word “Obsession to Create”. And “anything” the God creates is an extension outside of the perfection of Himself. This would also seem to suggest that God the Creator being Infinite in Himself would place any extension of Himself finite as God Himself chooses that extension to be.

 

[James_S_Saint]

I have a question. When you say that the universe (and therefore time also) is eternal, do you mean it has no beginning and no end? If it had no beginning, how is it part of creation? How is God its Creator? If you say the universe is eternal because The Cause (God) is always present and therefore because the Cause is present, the univese must be caused, **Is it possible **that you are placing a limitation on God as a result of finite human reasoning? An, “If I can not understand it, it is not possible!” sort of thing?

Just the reverse. It seems to me that it is You who are putting a limitation on God because of what You cannot understand. God creates continuously. When you pray, aren’t you usually praying for some change, the end of a war, the end of some illness, the rise of compassion, a new Mercedes? Why pray to a God unless that God can cause change? God IS the very cause of ALL change and that is what causes the universe to exist, because the universe IS what is changing. The universe has nothing within it that is not made of “changing”. Literally every particle of matter is made of a changing within it. Every detection of everything within Science is via a change. Neither eye nor mind can see without distinction and change. Nothing can be effected without change fore effect IS change. And nothing can exist unless it affects something. God is the Cause of such affect, the Cause of everything’s existence. Your limited mind tells God that He had to begin doing what He does at some point in time, but God doesn’t start when you give permission. God starts causing change as soon as God’s will exists. A “will” is an effort, an effort to cause, to affect, to create, instantly and inherently creating time. When was God’s will first in existence? What God “was doing” was that God was Creating, because that is what God does.

Are you not limiting the concept of time to merely a material universe? But time is a concept that is “outside of materialism”. Look for time under the microscope and you will see no more of it than you see of spirit.

 

[centurionguard]

Looking at the OP’s question "What did God do before he created the universe?"

Who’s to say that God Only created One Universe or dimensional state of being? Hypothetical question yes, but no human is truly qualified to state that other universes do not exist. Paradise itself is a state of existence where after God removed Adam and Eve from paradise and stationed cherubim at both entrances to keep Adam and Eve from re-entering after their great fall of disobedience. Even Saint Paul writes that in a dream that God brought him to see several states of heavenly places that he could not fully describe. And what about Jesus Himself who states (“In my Fathers’ house there are many mansions”) The three dimensional universe we humans perceive today though seemingly infinitely vast beyond our comprehension is but only one particular extension in God’s vast limitless creation outside the Perfection of Himself.

 

[James_S_Saint]

Who’s to say that God Only created One Universe or dimensional state of being? Hypothetical question yes, but no human is truly qualified to state that other universes do not exist.

Presumptuous. No human is qualified to say what “no human” can know.

In fact, God let’s many know that there is no “alternate universe” or even “other universe”, other than those that we cannot yet detect. Don’t put limits on God or what God can tell to humans.

 

[surritter]

Just the reverse. It seems to me that it is You who are putting a limitation on God because of what You cannot understand. God creates continuously. When you pray, aren’t you usually praying for some change, the end of a war, the end of some illness, the rise of compassion, a new Mercedes? Why pray to a God unless that God can cause change? God IS the very cause of ALL change and that is what causes the universe to exist, because the universe IS what is changing. The universe has nothing within it that is not made of “changing”. Literally every particle of matter is made of a changing within it. Every detection of everything within Science is via a change. Neither eye nor mind can see without distinction and change. Nothing can be effected without change fore effect IS change. And nothing can exist unless it affects something. God is the Cause of such affect, the Cause of everything’s existence. Your limited mind tells God that He had to begin doing what He does at some point in time, but God doesn’t start when you give permission. God starts causing change as soon as God’s will exists. A “will” is an effort, an effort to cause, to affect, to create, instantly and inherently creating time. When was God’s will first in existence? What God “was doing” was that God was Creating, because that is what God does.

First, you must admit that you have stated that the universe is eternal. (“Because the cause of the universe existing is eternal, the universe that God causes must also be eternal.”)

This is the jumping-off point for the confusion that myself and others have about your explanations. Why must the universe be eternal? You say it is because God – the “cause” or eternal creator, must always be doing some sort of creating.

Let’s try this angle: God IS love, as we should all agree. But God’s nature of being love defined doesn’t mean that the FRUITS of that love have always been around. So it is with the universe. God’s nature of being the Creator doesn’t mean that the FRUITS of His creation have always been around.

 

[James_S_Saint]

First, you must admit that you have stated that the universe is eternal. (“Because the cause of the universe existing is eternal, the universe that God causes must also be eternal.”)

This is the jumping-off point for the confusion that myself and others have about your explanations. Why must the universe be eternal? You say it is because God – the “cause” or eternal creator, must always be doing some sort of creating.

Agreed.

Let’s try this angle: God IS love, as we should all agree. But God’s nature of being love defined doesn’t mean that the FRUITS of that love have always been around. So it is with the universe. God’s nature of being the Creator doesn’t mean that the FRUITS of His creation have always been around.

What IS Love? Love IS “devoted support”. It is an ***action ***of will and desire. How can God love if there is nothing to love? Do you propose that Love existed for an eternity before Love decided to produce something to love?

“The Fruits” do not explain “the roots”. But when the the fruits are existence itself, for how long can the roots be without fruit?

 

[James_S_Saint]

Perhaps look at it this way;

Which came first, the affecter or the affected? How can one exist without the other? How can there be an affecter if there is nothing to affect?

God, by definition, is The Affecter. If something has no affect upon anything whatsoever, then by what rationale can it be said to exist (ref; Rational Definition of Existence). If God sat around for an eternity before affecting anything, then during that period, how could God be said to exist? “Exist” (have affect) relative to what??

If there has been no period in which the Affecter has not existed, then there could be no period in which the affected has not also existed, fore there cannot be one without the other.

 

[surritter]

What you are saying (affecter/affected and creator/creation) is more proper to the Trinity, not to the universe. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for all eternity have been in existence and “doing” these things to each other.

But it is not true that the universe is eternal. If the universe is eternal, then why must it be that God created it? Couldn’t the universe have created God? This notion of co-eternal actually violates the “first cause” property of God.

So again, if you plug in “Son” or “Holy Spirit” where you often mention “universe,” I would agree with you. The Persons of the Trinity are co-eternal. The universe is not – unless you believe in a Quadrinity. This is why, in a previous post, I mentioned the mild pantheism that pervades your argument.

 

[James_S_Saint]

What you are saying (affecter/affected and creator/creation) is more proper to the Trinity, not to the universe.

I said nothing of the universe existing without its Cause.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for all eternity have been in existence and “doing” these things to each other.

Did you find that in a Scripture? I only ask because you imply an understanding of those entities that exceeds your argument.

But it is not true that the universe is eternal. If the universe is eternal, then why must it be that God created it?

How could it exist if not Created? But what you are assuming is that time was spent before its creation. But time is merely change. If nothing is changing, then there could be no time. If something IS changing (being affected), that something IS the universe.

Couldn’t the universe have created God? This notion of co-eternal actually violates the “first cause” property of God.

I have said nothing of the universe creating God. The universe does not create its cause, but certainly inspires it.

So again, if you plug in “Son” or “Holy Spirit” where you often mention “universe,” I would agree with you. The Persons of the Trinity are co-eternal.

It is you that keeps putting in “universe” where it didn’t belong. Are you suggesting that God did not create God’s Son? And by the way, “Spirit” means “energy”, “motion”, “change”. The “Holy Spirit” is the perfect harmonious motion. God, the Father, is the “First Cause” of all that moves or changes yet is of the same “essence” of that perfect harmony.

This is why, in a previous post, I mentioned the mild pantheism that pervades your argument.

Pantheism is void of a singular Cause to all events, God. Pantheism accepts, much like the materialist, that everything has its own cause (its “god”) independent of anything else going on. Above all of those other causes, their cause, is the One Cause who Fathers them all.

 

[surritter]

James – I must admit that I never looked too carefully at your “Religion” heading, so I presumed we were discussing this in light of Christian beliefs. That’s OK, but be sure to challenge me (as you did above) if I’m saying something that relies too much on realized faith rather than pure reason, as you see it.

One essential tenet of Christianity is that the Son was NOT created! So yes, I am indeed saying that “God did not create God’s Son.” And your notion of the “Spirit” is also not one of Christianity – the Holy Spirit is a Person, not mere “energy,” “motion,” or “change.”

Another point: you made the statement that I am assuming that “time was spent before its creation.” No; that is the whole point of the OP’s question, and my argument is that there was no time before any creation – there was just eternity. Time is a function of the created world, so there is such a thing as “outside of time,” since there is a God who is “outside of creation.” It is you who are binding time and creation and God all together.

I think you are taking a genuine Christian belief, that of God being the First Cause or Primary Mover, and running with it in such a way that actually steps on His other innate qualities.