"What did God do before he created the universe?"

[James_S_Saint]

One essential tenet of Christianity is that the Son was NOT created! So yes, I am indeed saying that “God did not create God’s Son.” And your notion of the “Spirit” is also not one of Christianity – the Holy Spirit is a Person, not mere “energy,” “motion,” or “change.”

Yeah, I knew that you were going to bring that up.

First, a “Son” is not “The Father” and how is a father, a father if not by the instigation of a son? I don’t propose to argue that point against the Church’s teachings. I just wanted to mention a difference in conceptual understandings since you brought it up.

Secondly, the Holy Spirit IS a life. Life IS energy and motion, but a specific type. The fact that “spirit” means energy (as per Strong’s Concordance, I believe) does NOT mean that a particular spirit is not a life, the “spirit of a living being/existence”.

Another point: you made the statement that I am assuming that “time was spent before its creation.” No; that is the whole point of the OP, and my argument is that there was no time before any creation – there was just eternity.

“Eternity” means “ALL time”.

Main Entry: eter·ni·ty
Pronunciation: \i-ˈtər-nə-tē
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural eter·ni·ties
Etymology: Middle English eternite, from Middle French eternité, from Latin aeternitat-, aeternitas, from aeternus
Date: 14th century

1 : the quality or state of being eternal
2 : infinite time
3 plural : age 3b
4 : the state after death : immortality
5 : a seemingly endless or immeasurable time

e·ter·ni·ty (-tûrn-t)
n. pl. e·ter·ni·ties

1. Time without beginning or end; infinite time.
2. The state or quality of being eternal.

a. The timeless state following death.
b. The afterlife; immortality.
4. A very long or seemingly endless time:

Time is a function of the created world,

This is what You keep asserting. Where did you get that notion? Is it in your Scriptures somewhere? {or have you been infected with materialism?}

 

[surritter]

Yeah, I knew that you were going to bring that up.

First, a “Son” is not “The Father” and how is a father, a father if not by the instigation of a son? I don’t propose to argue that point against the Church’s teachings. I just wanted to mention a difference in conceptual understandings since you brought it up.

Well, it’s obvious that we’re not gonna solve this whole thing here! The issue goes deeper than just God and time. Perhaps I should break down and jump into the other threads that you suggested. :crying:

But I can’t help pointing out the irony in you last post. You insist that God and time are intertwined throughout all eternity by the nature of their definitions, and you acknowledging that they are different. But above, you have trouble with the idea that the Father and the Son can be distinct, yet intertwined throughout all eternity.

The Father and Son (and the Spirit) always were – there was no instigation. The Father is not a father by the “instigation of a son,” but rather by being a Father in the relationship. “Instigation” implies that there was a time of creation or begetting of the Son, which is not the case with things that are eternal.

 

[James_S_Saint]

But I can’t help pointing out the irony in you last post. You insist that God and time are intertwined throughout all eternity by the nature of their definitions, and you acknowledging that they are different. But above, you have trouble with the idea that the Father and the Son can be distinct, yet intertwined throughout all eternity.

I said nothing of them NOT being distinct. You seem to keep throwing in false assertions to what I have said.

The Father and Son (and the Spirit) always were – there was no instigation. The Father is not a father by the “instigation of a son,” but rather by being a Father in the relationship. “Instigation” implies that there was a time of creation or begetting of the Son, which is not the case with things that are eternal.

Well, I will grant you that I should not have said the word “instigate” as I also use that word to distinguish between a time event and a logical causation. The Father is the Cause of the Son, but not through time, but rather through logical consequence in the same way described in “God is the Reason, not the Instigation” thread.

I think our difference is that you seem to be thinking in terms of a God’s world somewhere and a created universe somewhere else very separated. I am pointing out that they are not as separated as you seem to be picturing. In a sense, God’s “world” occupies the same space as the universe, but is of a different essence. They are not the same or co-conspirators, but neither can exist for any length of time without the other, thus if God has always been, so has what God creates, because God creates it instantaneously.

The existence of straightness is what causes another thing to be curved. But the straightness did not bend through time, the thing that is curved. The fact of one ***causes ***the fact of the other instantaneously.

 

[surritter]

I said nothing of them NOT being distinct. You seem to keep throwing in false assertions to what I have said.

Sorry if I seem to be putting words in your mouth. My assertion on this comes from your insistence that God and the universe are both co-eternal. That really clouds the notion of distinctness between God and His creation.

I think our difference is that you seem to be thinking in terms of a God’s world somewhere and a created universe somewhere else very separated. I am pointing out that they are not as separated as you seem to be picturing. In a sense, God’s “world” occupies the same space as the universe, but is of a different essence.

OK, I’m not totally opposed to this part.

…neither can exist for any length of time without the other, thus if God has always been, so has what God creates, because God creates it instantaneously.

Here’s the rub. God can exist perfectly fine without the universe. Plus, think about this: I as a person was created by God. But you just said that “if God has always been, so has what God creates.” So I have always been?? Please explain.

 

[centurionguard]

Presumptuous. No human is qualified to say what “no human” can know.

In fact, God let’s many know that there is no “alternate universe” or even “other universe”, other than those that we cannot yet detect. Don’t put limits on God or what God can tell to humans.

Seems to me you completely misinterpreted what I said. And no I not being presumptuous as you put it. I only state plausibility with the fact that God “is” Infinite in His creation.

Don’t put limits on God or what God can tell to humans.
Now this statement eludes me. Where did you get the idea that I was putting limits on what God can or cannot do?

I do not believe in a alternate universe that consist of a parallel reality or otherwise.
Why? Because it makes no logic as far as the limitations on human intellect are concerned.

Strictly from an empirical point of view all that man understands about our universe is theoretically derived from the primitive empirical instruments he uses to bring about a plausible conclusion. There are too many variables and unknowns about the universe.
Man does not know nor will he ever know everything there is to know about this universe and it’s finite limitations.

In fact, God let’s many know that there is no “alternate universe” or even “other universe”, other than those that we cannot yet detect

Where do you get the idea that God said He lets many know that NO other universe exist?
However; for the sake of meaningless argument I would point out that what we fine fascinating about God’s immense unfathomable creation means very little and shy’s in comparison to those who lead a spiritual life seeking mystical union with God in a life of prayer in humble service to others.

 

[James_S_Saint]

God can exist perfectly fine without the universe. Plus, think about this: I as a person was created by God. But you just said that “if God has always been, so has what God creates.” So I have always been?? Please explain.

Simple - You are not the only thing God creates.

*"The existence of straightness is what causes another thing to be curved. But the straightness did not bend through time, the thing that is curved. The fact of one, **causes *the fact of the other instantaneously. "

God is the “Perfect” that causes the imperfect to know of its imperfection. But “perfect” is a comparative word meaning an exact match. One cannot say that something is perfect if it is the only existence. So if God is “perfect”, then to what is God an exact match? The answer to that is something I have been waiting to see if any Catholic can answer (there have been several threads expressing the perfection of God).

I agree that God is “The Perfect”. But an exact match to what? There IS a valid answer to that and that is what the atheist/Secularist needs to hear and isn’t hearing it, because no one is saying it. I am not certain that the Catholic Mass is supposed to know. I am not certain that the CC knows, but haven’t discounted that possibility.

Without the infinite, the finite would have no meaning. Without the Good, Bad would have no meaning. Without the Hope, Threat would have no meaning.

Without God, nothing at all has meaning. Without God, there can be no life. Without God, there is no cause. Without cause, there can be no affect. And without affectance, there can be no existence. God causes existence, but it all has nothing to do with time other than time being inherent as soon as any affecting occurs, which would be instantaneously.

 

[centurionguard]

Simple - You are not the only thing God creates.

*"The existence of straightness is what causes another thing to be curved. But the straightness did not bend through time, the thing that is curved. The fact of one, **causes ***the fact of the other instantaneously. "

God is the “Perfect” that causes the imperfect to know of its imperfection. But “perfect” is a comparative word meaning an exact match. One cannot say that something is perfect if it is the only existence. So if God is “perfect”, then to what is God an exact match? The answer to that is something I have been waiting to see if any Catholic can answer (there have been several threads expressing the perfection of God).

I agree that God is “The Perfect”. But an exact match to what? There IS a valid answer to that and that is what the atheist/Secularist needs to hear and isn’t hearing it, because no one is saying it. I am not certain that the Catholic Mass is supposed to know. I am not certain that the CC knows, but haven’t discounted that possibility.

Without the infinite, the finite would have no meaning. Without the Good, Bad would have no meaning. Without the Hope, Threat would have no meaning.

Without God, nothing at all has meaning. Without God, there can be no life. Without God, there is no cause. Without cause, there can be no affect. And without affectance, there can be no existence. God causes existence, but it all has nothing to do with time other than time being inherent as soon as any affecting occurs, which would be instantaneously.

I agree that God is “The Perfect”. But an exact match to what? There IS a valid answer to that and that is what the atheist/Secularist needs to hear and isn’t hearing it, because no one is saying it. I am not certain that the Catholic Mass is supposed to know. I am not certain that the CC knows, but haven’t discounted that possibility.

There is No match to God’s Perfection. To imply that there is a match to God would imply that there is another Equal. There is NO equal to God. How can there be if He resides in Infinite Perfection within Himself. Furthermore; God has No-Need to prove Himself to anything in His creation that is less perfect than Himself.

 

[surritter]

Simple - You are not the only thing God creates.

I didn’t get a good answer to my question. You have stated that “if God has always been, so has what God creates.” Obviously you and I are created beings, so it necessarily follows that we have always existed. Yet that isn’t true. Your answer is that I am not the only thing God creates. Please flesh that out some more – are you saying that my constituent parts have always existed and at conception I was just assembled? Or are you saying that God created creation, and creation then creates its own things?

God is the “Perfect” that causes the imperfect to know of its imperfection. But “perfect” is a comparative word meaning an exact match. One cannot say that something is perfect if it is the only existence. So if God is “perfect”, then to what is God an exact match? The answer to that is something I have been waiting to see if any Catholic can answer (there have been several threads expressing the perfection of God).

Maybe I’m repeating what other Catholics have said, but I wonder if you have the thinking backwards here. “Perfect” is not a quality that we then pigeonhole God into. Rather, God is the yardstick from which “perfect” derives. This is different than the straightness analogy, where the concept exists and then we compare the item to the concept.

 

[James_S_Saint]

I didn’t get a good answer to my question. You have stated that “if God has always been, so has what God creates.” Obviously you and I are created beings, so it necessarily follows that we have always existed. Yet that isn’t true. Your answer is that I am not the only thing God creates. Please flesh that out some more – are you saying that my constituent parts have always existed and at conception I was just assembled? Or are you saying that God created creation, and creation then creates its own things?

ALL that exists, at any time, is due to God creating it. In a sense, God is the ONLY creator. But to say that the Creator existed for any length of time before there was any creation says that God was not a Creator (a Cause) at all during that period. That is a non-sense perspective and why the OP question was asked. The mindset is typically that God sat around for an eternity doing who knows what until one day, God changed and decided to create the universe. God doesn’t change, but **causes **change. And it just so happens that the changes that God causes is of what the universe is entirely made.

Maybe I’m repeating what other Catholics have said, but I wonder if you have the thinking backwards here.

Actually I am trying to say that You necessarily have it backwards.

“Perfect” is not a quality that we then pigeonhole God into. Rather, God is the yardstick from which “perfect” derives. This is different than the straightness analogy, where the concept exists and then we compare the item to the concept.

The “straightness” analogy fits perfectly (pardon the pun) to what you just said. It is NOT “different” at all. What does it mean to be “perfectly straight” without merely referring to its opposite?

God is the standard, the Perfection. But what does that mean? To be perfect means that 2 things have to exactly match (another indication that God cannot be without something else also), so what is that thing to which God perfectly matches and Man attempts to also match and thus be “Godly” (perfect)?

 

[surritter]

ALL that exists, at any time, is due to God creating it. In a sense, God is the ONLY creator. But to say that the Creator existed for any length of time before there was any creation says that God was not a Creator (a Cause) at all during that period. That is a non-sense perspective and why the OP question was asked. The mindset is typically that God sat around for an eternity doing who knows what until one day, God changed and decided to create the universe. God doesn’t change, but **causes **change. And it just so happens that the changes that God causes is of what the universe is entirely made.

Still waiting for an answer to why you think it makes sense to say that I as a person have existed from all eternity. Is it due to reincarnation?

 

[James_S_Saint]

Still waiting for an answer to why you think it makes sense to say that I as a person have existed from all eternity. Is it due to reincarnation?

I did not say that you have existed for all eternity. I am saying that God creates MANY things. I said nothing about every one of them existing for all eternity. I said that a Cause cannot exist without an effect and certainly not without affect.

Your particular cause was The Cause arranging the right situation before causing you. But that is long after the question at hand concerning what God was doing before creating anything.

 

[surritter]

I did not say that you have existed for all eternity. I am saying that God creates MANY things. I said nothing about every one of them existing for all eternity. I said that a Cause cannot exist without an effect and certainly not without affect.

Your particular cause was The Cause arranging the right situation before causing you. But that is long after the question at hand concerning what God was doing before creating anything.

Clarification still needed. You wrote that “if God has always been, so has what God creates.” (You keep accusing me of putting words in your mouth, but if you would reread your statements, you would see that it’s not really true; I’m just rewording what you wrote.)

Based on your replies, then:

1. 
   *]I have not existed for all eternity (post 51)
   *]What God creates has always been (post 43)
   
   Therefore, I must not have been created by God. Is that a reasonable syllogism?

 

[James_S_Saint]

Clarification still needed. You wrote that “if God has always been, so has what God creates.” (You keep accusing me of putting words in your mouth, but if you would reread your statements, you would see that it’s not really true; I’m just rewording what you wrote.)

Based on your replies, then:

1. 
   *]I have not existed for all eternity (post 51)
   *]What God creates has always been (post 43)
   
   Therefore, I must not have been created by God. Is that a reasonable syllogism?

1. 
   By “what God creates” in that sentence, I meant “effect”. What God (The Cause) creates is “Effect” which is entirely of what the universe is made. You are only one instance of “effect”.
   
   “Apples are caused by apple seeds. Apple seeds have been around for thousands of years, so this apple I am eating must be thousands of years old.” - Emmm… no.

 

[PJM]

=WJL;6203186]“What did God do with his time before he created the universe?”

That was a question I was asked recently.

I responded to this person that because God is eternal (timeless) and created time, itself, He always existed and has no beginning and no end, thus the question was flawed.

The person who asked the above question, also asked after my response:

“If God always existed then he must have occupied both time and space. All things must have a logical start and finish and by merely stating that he was a continuum creates more questions than answers.”

I’m relatively new to apologetics so, I was wondering if anyone could offer some ideas of how to respond to the objection mentioned above?

Thanks.

***That is an understanding of a “Secular Humanist.”

In the Spiriual real of God, neither “time” nor “space” exit. Everything is “present.”

God is every perfect Good thing Perfected, and has no need of either time or space, which is not to say that God ignores either. ***
**
Isa.55: 8** “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth,so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
**
John.4: 23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." **

 

[centurionguard]

I did not say that you have existed for all eternity. I am saying that God creates MANY things. I said nothing about every one of them existing for all eternity. I said that a Cause cannot exist without an effect and certainly not without affect.

Your particular cause was The Cause arranging the right situation before causing you. But that is long after the question at hand concerning what God was doing before creating anything.

No disrespect James; but I believe you tripping over the way you formulate some of your answers.

The Cause arranging the right situation before causing you. But that is long after the question at hand concerning what God was doing before creating anything

(“The question at hand concerning what God was doing before creating anything”)
The fact remains is that there was NO Beginning as to making a reference of Before God creating anything. God is Infinite. Therefore His act of creating also has to be Infinite with no reference of Time as being Before or After, Past or Present.

Peace
Chris

 

[surritter]

By “what God creates” in that sentence, I meant “effect”. What God (The Cause) creates is “Effect” which is entirely of what the universe is made. You are only one instance of “effect”.

“Apples are caused by apple seeds. Apple seeds have been around for thousands of years, so this apple I am eating must be thousands of years old.” - Emmm… no.

Thanks for the clarification – what you say may be true for our bodies, which employs human sexuality to create that “effect,” but definitely not for our souls. (The soul is also a creation of God.)

Would you like to restrict the discussion to only physical objects? Or all of creation?

 

[James_S_Saint]

The fact remains is that there was NO Beginning as to making a reference of Before God creating anything. God is Infinite. Therefore His act of creating also has to be Infinite with no reference of Time as being Before or After, Past or Present.

Thanks for the clarification – what you say may be true for our bodies, which employs human sexuality to create that “effect,” but definitely not for our souls. (The soul is also a creation of God.)

Would you like to restrict the discussion to only physical objects? Or all of creation?

What I have been “saying” applies to the effect of anything existing whatsoever, body OR soul, but even more certainly to your soul.

 

[surritter]

So – we’ll discuss body and soul. For now, I’ll ask about the soul. Please spell it out for me: Has my soul existed forever?
If yes, where was my soul prior to my conception (not geographic location but rather what state)?
If no, when was it created?

 

[James_S_Saint]

So – we’ll discuss body and soul. For now, I’ll ask about the soul. Please spell it out for me: Has my soul existed forever?
If yes, where was my soul prior to my conception (not geographic location but rather what state)?
If no, when was it created?

Sigh…

Soul == a person’s fundamental definition and function (distinct from “spirit”)

The word “soul” and the word “sole” are related in that they both refer to what the rest of the entity is built upon.

When a Jew tells you that you have no soul, he is saying that you have no purpose or function in the human race. That narrow minded idea comes from the perspective of you not being a significant enduring entity (no depth), such as a childless man or woman who has not contributed anything to society. The Christian perspective is that everyone has a function and purpose even if they only exist for a split second. I agree with the Christian perspective.

As to when a soul “comes into existence”, that is a matter of “Truth” rather than reality. From the God perspective, every existence has had purpose and function from the moment God existed. People want to argue issues of declared truths concerning whether a soul exists before its body exists, but this is just an issue of definition of existence. I don’t consider such discussions relevant. It would be most compatible with Christianity in general, to accept that every soul has existed since God has, but I don’t make such declarative decisions.

If you define yourself as the combination of your body AND soul, then obviously you do not exist until your body exists. I have been surprised to hear Christians making such a claim. The Mormons preach of you deciding to come to Earth and into a body, but again, such isn’t my business or concern.

So basically, this is an issue for “Truth makers” to declare rather than any concern of God and reality.

 

[centurionguard]

Sigh…

Soul == a person’s fundamental definition and function (distinct from “spirit”)

The word “soul” and the word “sole” are related in that they both refer to what the rest of the entity is built upon.

When a Jew tells you that you have no soul, he is saying that you have no purpose or function in the human race. That narrow minded idea comes from the perspective of you not being a significant enduring entity (no depth), such as a childless man or woman who has not contributed anything to society. The Christian perspective is that everyone has a function and purpose even if they only exist for a split second. I agree with the Christian perspective.

As to when a soul “comes into existence”, that is a matter of “Truth” rather than reality. From the God perspective, every existence has had purpose and function from the moment God existed. People want to argue issues of declared truths concerning whether a soul exists before its body exists, but this is just an issue of definition of existence. I don’t consider such discussions relevant. It would be most compatible with Christianity in general, to accept that every soul has existed since God has, but I don’t make such declarative decisions.

If you define yourself as the combination of your body AND soul, then obviously you do not exist until your body exists. I have been surprised to hear Christians making such a claim. The Mormons preach of you deciding to come to Earth and into a body, but again, such isn’t my business or concern.

So basically, this is an issue for “Truth makers” to declare rather than any concern of God and reality.

…
Not sure how you can assume that the soul is distinct from the spirit, both are of the same essence

People want to argue issues of declared truths concerning whether a soul exists before its body exists

If you define yourself as the combination of your body AND soul, then obviously you do not exist until your body exists. I have been surprised to hear Christians making such a claim.

The Catholic Church teaches that at the very moment of conception that both the human Body and Soul exist simultaneously.

Haydock’s Catholic Biblical Commentary Genesis Chapter 1:26
haydock1859.tripod.com/id327.html

Ver. 26. Let us make man to our image. This image of God in man, is not in the body, but in the soul; which is a spiritual substance, endued with understanding and free-will. God speaketh here in the plural number, to insinuate the plurality of persons in the Deity. (Challoner) — Some of the ancient Jews maintained that God here addressed his council, the Angels; but is it probable that he should communicate to them the title of Creator, and a perfect similitude with himself? (Calmet) — Man is possessed of many prerogatives above all other creatures of this visible world: his soul gives him a sort of equality with the Angels; and though his body be taken from the earth, like the brutes, yet even here the beautiful construction, the head erect and looking towards heaven, &c. makes St. Augustine observe, an air of majesty in the human body, which raises man above all terrestrial animals, and brings him in some measure near to the Divinity. As Jesus assumed our human nature, we may assert, that we bear a resemblance to God both in soul and body. Tertullian (de Resur. 5.) says, “Thus that slime, putting on already the image of Christ, who would come in the flesh, was not only the work of God, but also a pledge.” (Haydock) See St. Bernard on Psalm xcix. (Worthington)