This is a discussion forum. We have discussed the validity or not of absolution many times in these forums and also contrition.While you may be making a general point, your post below is about a specific person making a specific confession and it is not for us to make statements.
No one needs to explain to another person that they have contrition when they confessed their sins to God through the priest in the Sacrament of Confession.
We do not need to understand the contrition of another penitent, nor question “how”.
So you say it is OK to let someone die, and you can walk away with a clear conscience feeling good because you did not break a rule? May God have mercy on you, and I really mean it.You do not try to save them by lying. You try to find another way, and yes there is always another way.
By the way, if the Lutheran Church or any other one teaches something that contradicts the teachings of the Catholic Church then it is the teachings of the other churches that are wrong. You are not permitted to agree with any teaching of other Christian churches that contradict the Catholic Church.
Stop telling lies. I did NOT say I would walk away and let someone die. I said you do not try to save a person by lying. There are other ways than lying and rejecting Church teachings.So you say it is OK to let someone die, and you can walk away with a clear conscience feeling good because you did not break a rule? May God have mercy on you, and I really mean it.
There are moments in our life when we must judge a situation as we see it, and act upon what we think is the best way to solve it. I am sorry for you, I really do. Christ did teach us in so many ways what mercy is, I truly hope you will find what is right, and what makes it so good to be Catholic, and it is not all about rules, no, it is all about love, and compassion. You need to find that again.
This is a discussion forum. We have discussed the validity or not of absolution many times in these forums and also contrition.
A valid absolution is conditional upon a genuine contrition. **I am questioning how a contrition can be genuine **when the penitent states they will commit the sin again given similar circumstances.
thistle: This is a discussion forum. We have discussed the validity or not of absolution many times in these forums and also contrition.Originally Posted by thistle forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
The point I am trying make and* it is a general one*** and that is if someone has no intention of not committing again the sin they are confessing how can there be contrition?
I disagree. The op talked about his sin, Confession , and stating that despite that he would do it again. He opened all that for discussion.thistle: This is a discussion forum. We have discussed the validity or not of absolution many times in these forums and also contrition.
A valid absolution is conditional upon a genuine contrition. **I am questioning how a contrition can be genuine **when the penitent states they will commit the sin again given similar circumstances.
thistle: The point I am trying make and** it is a general one** and that is if someone has no intention of not committing again the sin they are confessing how can there be contrition?
Yes, thistle, this is a discussion forum. Yes, discussion of what makes the Sacrament of Confession valid is a legitimate discussion question for a thread.
Yes, if someone ask of others about themselves “our opinion” of the validity of their contrition and Confession, it could be acceptable to “discuss”.
thistle: A valid absolution is conditional upon a genuine contrition. I am questioning how a contrition can be genuine when the penitent states they will commit the sin again given similar circumstances.
This, dear thistle, is not your place to question genuine contrition of another person, nor is it right for you to question it with the specific person on the specific Sacrament. It is not right to imply the specific person (the OP) may not have received a valid absolution because you don’t understand how they could have held genuine contrition.
Nor is it right for you use my remarks about the OP being remorseful with you writing: I’m not sure she (he) is remorseful.
If you would like to have a forum discussion “question on how a contrition can be genuine when …”, I suggest that you begin a new thread. Questioning a specific person about “how can you have genuine contrition” from their specific confession is simply not proper.
This applies in all areas of our lives - not just to those on a discussion forum. If your relative or friend tells you, “thistle, I sinned and went to Confession today”, it is not your place to question if they are remorseful nor to imply their confession may not be valid.
It is not reliant on “how” you understand their feelings, emotions, and thoughts.
If you were teaching a class on the Sacrament of Confession and one of the people attending your presentation shared the same information as the OP did here, it would not be appropriate for you to say to another person in the room, "I’m not sure she (he) is remorseful."
If another person in the room were to make that statement, it would be appropriate for you to gently say, “It is not our place to question his remorse, nor the validity of his Confession. We do not need to understand 'how a contrition can be genuine.’ That is not our role to take. That is very private between the penitent, the priest, and God. It is not our place to question, qualify or quantify the degree of his remorse.”
Since it was my statement about the OP having remorse that began this tangent of “if the OP has genuine contrition thus affecting the validity of his confession” - I write my post with the intent that “anyone reading this thread will hear my understanding” that remorse, sorrow, contrition is something to be known and understood between the penitent, the priest, and God.
When I said “stop telling lies” I mean what YOU said about me. You said that I said it was okay to walk away and let someone die. That is a lie. I did not say that.Easy easy my friend, calm down. This is not a issue worth a stroke.
No, it is not right to lie, but sometimes it is inevitable to do so. (This advice I did give was not a lie, you did manufacture that from something I have not a clue about.) This is a example I saw somewhere, I think it was on a Catholic web-site but I am not sure what forum. “It is 1943 and you hide a jewish family in your house on the attic. A bunch of nazi-soldiers come and knock on on the front door and you open the door. They ask you if you have any jews hiding in your house. You say: no.” A lie, a big, fat lie, but a very needed one. You don’t only save your own life, you save the life’s of a whole family from death. Right or wrong? What more could you do? Do you think that it would have been a help if you would have said: “hey soldiers, the thing is that I am Catholic and I am not allowed to lie, so please, don’t search the house, just have some trust in me.” If you think that work you are very wrong. Look, there are times when a lie is more then justified. I am not saying it is right to lie, and I would confess that lie later on, don’t think I would get any penance though. It is always wrong to lie, but sadly, we don’t live in a perfect world. How many lies do you think nuns and monks did tell hiding people during WW II? There is no guideline that say when a lie may be justified, but that’s why the Christian conscience enter the stage. And what does it tell us? To save a life is always the right thing to do, there are no “if’s” or “but’s” about that. We must simply, no matter if we like it or not, understand that there are situations when we not only should but must, toss away the CCC and have faith in God and do what we think is right. If it mean you must sin, that is a sin God will forget in a second. Christ did say: “so, go and be perfect”. What did He mean? Go and do what is right, wrong or not. Christ did NOT say: “so go and lie” or “so go and sin”, no, Christ did say “so go and be perfect”. (Mt. 5:43-48) Christ tell us to do Gods will. What Gods will is are something we don’t know to the full extent. We see it still like we would watch it trhu a thin veil but we see a part of it. But in order to be perfect we sometimes must do what first seem to be wrong. I understand that it is hard for you to grasp it, it took a while for me too, but o’boy was I free when I did realize that I can be perfect when I may do what is wrong. I did understand that I can help also people who have no, or a very week faith.
All situations are not solved by the means The RCC have provide us with. Not everyone have faith, if they would, this world would be a better place to live in. I understand that you have a very strong faith and live as we all should do, that is something nobody on this forum can deny. But as all of us, we have flaws, you seem to be unable to think by your self. That is not a bad thing, you follow every rule, and I guess you don’t need to confess more then the “once a year” rule tell us. I think you are very happy and very sad. You most likely live alone, far from home. Guess you never have been married, that could be the reason why God have give you such a strong faith as He have. It help you to stay out of sin. But there is one very obvious thing in your life, lack of compassion. I am sure God want you to have that virtue, the virtue of feeling with your heart, not your brain. I do hope we could be friends. Yes, you have been rude and harsh, to many, but I am ready to forget that, I think you need a friend, and one that not only talk about God, no, one who is there for you. I could be that person. I am far from perfect, but as I often say: “I would like to be a good Catholic but I think I settle with being a honest one”. (I am not imply that you would be a liar.) I think you need someone who are ready to talk about what you don’t alone have courage to. I know it is hard, and sometimes it become some sort of fixation that may manifest in many different ways. But if you want, I am here for you. We may not share the same view in all matters, but I am ready and willing to be here for you. God bless you.
thistle: I disagree. The op talked about his sin, his Confession , and stating that despite that he would do it again. He opened all that for discussion.I disagree. The op talked about his sin, Confession , and stating that despite that he would do it again. He opened all that for discussion.
I’m not sure she is remorseful. …Valid Confession and absolution is based on** sincere **Confession…
**I am simply querying if you were remorseful **when you went to Confession
The point I am trying make and it is a general one and that is if someone has no intention of not committing again the sin they are confessing how can there be contrition?
A valid absolution is conditional upon a genuine contrition. I am questioning** how a contrition can be genuine**…
When they tell us something in this public forum they are laying all aspects of it open for discussion.thistle: I disagree. The op talked about his sin, his Confession , and stating that despite that he would do it again. He opened all that for discussion.
(I am assuming by “all that”, you mean “his remorse, his contrition”, since it is remorse and contrition that I was saying it is not proper to question someone about.)
My point is that when a person states: I sinned, I went to Confession and even if they say “I will possibly do it again with the same situation”… that it is not our place to decide “they opened up for discussion our questioning of their remorse”.
Maybe in a “law setting”, the judge can declare that the person opened themselves up to the topic and, therefore, it is “acceptable for others to question his remorse”.
I hold that when someone expresses that they went to confession, it is not our place to say, “I’m not sure she is remorseful”, "**I am simply querying if you were remorseful, **or “I don’t see **how **you can be sorry because…”
When someone begins questioning the remorse of another, the person may think they need to defend their position to another.
On a forum or in person, I do not think anyone needs to defend their remorse to another person. Contrition is for the penitent, the priest, and God.
Speaking of our sin, our confession, etc. does not open us up to discussion and being “questioned” by anyone of our contrition, except our confessor.
A person can be highly offended to feel they need to justify to someone that they are sorry they offended our Dear Lord.
To have gone to Confession, confessed their sin, expressed their sorrow, prayed their Act of Contrition, received absolution, completed their penance… to have fully received the Sacrament and then to be placed under the “questioning” of someone if they were remorseful is not how we should treat one another, on-line or in person.
You dont try to save a person by lying?! That is a very off statement, I could blow that WAY out of proportion with historical references where lying did much good!Stop telling lies. I did NOT say I would walk away and let someone die. I said you do not try to save a person by lying. There are other ways than lying and rejecting Church teachings.
It is very simple. You don’t say or do anything that contradicts Church teaching.More then true, millions of people have been saved by a lie. The tricky thing is to keep the lie in proportion with the situation. Lying to GAIN something personal is wrong, but lying to help someone can, depending on the circumstances, can be justified. A lie is a sin when it inflict a not true picture and is told to gain something from like: “I did lose my wallet and all my money, can you help?” and the wallet is in your pocket and you know it. To alter the truth in a effort to benefit from it is always wrong. But if you lie and the reason is to help someone and you will not gain anything from it yourself and the situation is one where that is the last resort and there really is nothing else that can be done it is justified.
In this specific case, BTW, I was not lying, all I did was to help, and I saw it then as the only thing I could do. Since nobody know, and will never know, the situation, it is pure speculation what did happen. All I can say is that I did my best, and I hope it did help. I did confess it because I know it was wrong, as I should.
Sometimes the last thing anyone want to hear is what The Church teach, or what is in The Bible, can be for many reasons. Not everyone is Catholic, a thing we must live with. We can not isolate us like there is nothing else in the world then The RCC, we can’t do it. We must accept that and go one, as hard as it is.
thistle: "When they tell us something in this public forum they are laying all aspects of it open for discussion."When they tell us something in this public forum they are laying all aspects of it open for discussion.
So, back to my example, if someone are standing on the edge of a cliff and are ready to jump. The only thing that stands between jump or not is you, and a sentence that is against official teaching, let us say that the person are trying to get a child with his/her spouse and as non-Catholics they have treatment that may help them to get that child. (This is not the issue either that was what I did say.) The person ask you: “if I can’t continue with the treatment we may have a chance, should I continue, if not, my life is worth nothing, my spouse will leave me and I will jump!” What would you say? And keep in mind that you are talking to a person that is not Catholic and not very religious in any way and does not suffer from any mental problems, only despair, and the only way they may have a child is by IV-fertilization, and you know this thing. What would you say?It is very simple. You don’t say or do anything that contradicts Church teaching.
Doing an evil, even if the intent is to achieve a good end, is a sin of grave matter
Are you kidding? Get real. We are not in such a situation and like many here I don’t do hypotheticals. You are simply trying to get me or someone else to say they will break the Church teachings whatever the situation.So, back to my example, if someone are standing on the edge of a cliff and are ready to jump. The only thing that stands between jump or not is you, and a sentence that is against official teaching, let us say that the person are trying to get a child with his/her spouse and as non-Catholics they have treatment that may help them to get that child. (This is not the issue either that was what I did say.) The person ask you: “if I can’t continue with the treatment we may have a chance, should I continue, if not, my life is worth nothing, my spouse will leave me and I will jump!” What would you say? And keep in mind that you are talking to a person that is not Catholic and not very religious in any way and does not suffer from any mental problems, only despair, and the only way they may have a child is by IV-fertilization, and you know this thing. What would you say?
I have no idea; I’ve been going through the posts but it all seems very vague and evasive. Is this a trick question?Re: What did I do?
I know your question was for thistle, but I will share a bit with you.So, back to my example, if someone are standing on the edge of a cliff and are ready to jump. The only thing that stands between jump or not is you, and a sentence that is against official teaching,… What would you say?
You are so right. (As always.)I know your question was for thistle, but I will share a bit with you.
When we are caught off guard in our life, something pops up out of no where, something we had never thought about facing, or been taught how to react, we do the best we can.
I think that may be what happened with you and the young woman who was in pain. You faced a situation that you had never prepared to faced. You responded in the moment.
Sometimes we look back when the moment has passed and we wonder if we did the right thing. When you looked back, you thought “I sinned” and you confessed it because you felt remorse for that sin.
From what you wrote, you were simply looking in your original post to see if you sinned a second time because in making your confession there was information of your conversation that involved the young lady.
While this is a different direction than your story, I would like to share a story about realizing it is our prayers that we pray throughout our lives that help us in the mist of the unexpected journeys of our days.
I was taking some items that our parish collected to the Crisis Pregnancy Center, diapers, etc. I stood at the locked door and realized they were closed. A young couple approached and were also disappointed the clinic was closed.
Somehow, I realized they thought this was the abortion center which was across the street. I spoke with them, but didn’t let on that this was or wasn’t the abortion center.
I shared with them the sorrow of my daughter and son-in-law when they miscarried their baby. They drove away and I wondered what to do.
They were heading down the road which dead ends, so I walked out to the road to wait for them to return.
I stopped them and asked if I could give them some diapers that I had in the car, as they had mentioned having a young child. They declined the offer.
They were on the phone in the car having someone make an appointment for another day for the abortion as “the abortion clinic was closed today,” they thought.
What they didn’t know was the abortion clinic was open. In fact, I was standing in the road talking to them in their car, just at the entrance to the abortion clinic on their left. On their right, just behind me, was the closed clinic - the closed Crisis Pregnancy Clinic.
They drove off. I thought, “Do I try to find which way they went and follow them and talk with them.”
I wondered, “What did I say, what should I have said, what do I do?”
I realize that I did my best. Maybe they never had the abortion, maybe they did.
I was caught off guard. I had not come to talk to people outside the abortion clinic that day, but to bring gifts to the pregnancy center.
Some days I have come to talk to the women outside the abortion clinic. Afterwards, I often can not remember what I said to the ladies.
I’ve come to realize, our Hail Mary prayers are asking Mary to pray for us. She does pray for us, even when we aren’t expecting that we need to be praying. Its the prayers we pray today that help fortify us tomorrow.
I have had a bit of instructions on how to speak with women outside of the abortion clinic, but I was so thrown off guard that day. Plus, there was no mention of “abortion” between the couple to me. I didn’t speak to them the way I know to speak to women outside the abortion clinic - because I didn’t want them to know this is the Crisis Pregnancy Center.
In fact, they most likely thought I was trying to go into the same “abortion clinic” for some reason, as I was at the locked door with them - the door they thought was an abortion clinic.
My hope was that they return to the same “locked” door on another day - and that on that day the door would be open. In that way, the trained volunteers at the Crisis Pregnancy Center would be prepared to work with a couple who wanted an abortion and maybe they would choose life.
I realized, I couldn’t worry if I said the right thing, if I could have spoken in a better way to them. I realized, I did what I could at the time.
I think the same thing happened with you - you were caught off guard with the turn of events that day.
In your case, you realized you had said something that was a sin. You are sorry, you confessed it, and were absolved. God can use this event to help you when another unexpected event occurs.
That young lady felt something peaceful in you. Maybe her guardian angel or her soul sensed you would bring her peace. You may find others are also drawn to you and the care they can sense within you. God helps you to do your best.
When we face the unexpected, our mind and soul will draw upon the knowledge and graces we have at the moment. While we may have little knowledge of the subject, those graces within us can help us do the best we can.
Later we may doubt ourselves or someone else may doubt what we did or judge what we did. We have to know that at the moment our mind does not have the time to slowly think through everything we are saying or doing.
God understands our limitation in knowledge of the sudden event and in doing the best that we can at the moment. If we sin, we ask for His Holy Forgiveness and He in His Mercy gives it to us.
May God continue to bless you, Lasting Faith, with a heart that others see as someone to turn to in a time of need. May God bless the woman who was suffering. May He lighten her load and bring her His Peace this Advent Season.
I am most certainly try to undermine anyone’s faith, far from it.Are you kidding? Get real. We are not in such a situation and like many here I don’t do hypotheticals. You are simply trying to get me or someone else to say they will break the Church teachings whatever the situation.
That’s as bad an example of others that keep coming up from time to time.
I do not do hypotheticals. We have seen so many. They are endless and meaningless.I am most certainly try to undermine anyone’s faith, far from it.
No, we are not in a situation like the one I did use as an example, but we may be, who knows. I am merely trying to hear what you may say. It is not a question that I ask because I want you to sin, I only want to learn, so what should one say if facing that scenario? I am pretty sure you know, that is why I ask.
And yes, it still bothers me, I mean what I did say, but I will talk to my priest when he comes the next time.