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Psalms62
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The criteria of choosing a King - Messiah had been fulfilled:
God chose the Messiah King (both with Saul & David) however, the prophet must anoint and acknowledge him before the people. Basing this information on the Laws Concerning King Mashiach. The prophet isn’t the one who picks out the Messiah, the prophets are the ones who can recognize & acknowledge them before the Sanhedrin & the people. After reading the anointing by the prophet and acknowledging Saul & David as the Messiah (Melech HaMoshiach) does it seem like either of them are ordinary persons or one that has God’s seal on him. David was not only acknowledged as King but also a savior. Not all Jewish kings have been anointed and also, only monarchs who are descended from the patriarch Jacob’s son Judah through his descendants Kings David and Solomon. Anointing reinforces the covenant that the descendants would continue the dynasty.
The other point being made (added) King Messiah also promotes justice:
In Micah 6:6-8 said, "With what shall I come before the LORD and bow down before the exalted God? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? 7** Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of olive oil? Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.**
The Messiah ( Melech haMashiach as ‘King Messiah’) in the Book of Samuel, two possible functions are described - judgment and military leadership. For obedience is better than sacrifices: and to hearken rather than to offer the fat of rams. 1 Samuel 15:22 What happened with Saul? And, isn’t the verse in 1 Samuel when choosing another King the main point, “the Lord has sought out a man after his own heart.” 1 Samuel 13:14
WITH SAUL:
**15 Now the day before Saul came, the Lord had revealed this to Samuel: 16 “About this time tomorrow I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin. Anoint him ruler over my people Israel; he will deliver them from the hand of the Philistines. I have looked on my people, for their cry has reached me.” 1 Samuel 9:15-16
"But, you stay here for a while, so that I may give you a message from God.”
1 SAMUEL 10: THE ANNOINTING
then Samuel took a flask of olive oil and poured it on Saul’s head and kissed him, saying, “Has not the Lord anointed you ruler over his inheritance?[a] 2 When you leave me today, you will meet two men near Rachel’s tomb, at Zelzah on the border of Benjamin. They will say to you, ‘The donkeys you set out to look for have been found.
9 As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul’s heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day.
11 When all those who had formerly known him saw him prophesying with the prophets, they asked each other, “What is this that has happened to the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?”
God chose the Messiah King (both with Saul & David) however, the prophet must anoint and acknowledge him before the people. Basing this information on the Laws Concerning King Mashiach. The prophet isn’t the one who picks out the Messiah, the prophets are the ones who can recognize & acknowledge them before the Sanhedrin & the people. After reading the anointing by the prophet and acknowledging Saul & David as the Messiah (Melech HaMoshiach) does it seem like either of them are ordinary persons or one that has God’s seal on him. David was not only acknowledged as King but also a savior. Not all Jewish kings have been anointed and also, only monarchs who are descended from the patriarch Jacob’s son Judah through his descendants Kings David and Solomon. Anointing reinforces the covenant that the descendants would continue the dynasty.
The other point being made (added) King Messiah also promotes justice:
In Micah 6:6-8 said, "With what shall I come before the LORD and bow down before the exalted God? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? 7** Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of olive oil? Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.**
The Messiah ( Melech haMashiach as ‘King Messiah’) in the Book of Samuel, two possible functions are described - judgment and military leadership. For obedience is better than sacrifices: and to hearken rather than to offer the fat of rams. 1 Samuel 15:22 What happened with Saul? And, isn’t the verse in 1 Samuel when choosing another King the main point, “the Lord has sought out a man after his own heart.” 1 Samuel 13:14
WITH SAUL:
**15 Now the day before Saul came, the Lord had revealed this to Samuel: 16 “About this time tomorrow I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin. Anoint him ruler over my people Israel; he will deliver them from the hand of the Philistines. I have looked on my people, for their cry has reached me.” 1 Samuel 9:15-16
"But, you stay here for a while, so that I may give you a message from God.”
1 SAMUEL 10: THE ANNOINTING
then Samuel took a flask of olive oil and poured it on Saul’s head and kissed him, saying, “Has not the Lord anointed you ruler over his inheritance?[a] 2 When you leave me today, you will meet two men near Rachel’s tomb, at Zelzah on the border of Benjamin. They will say to you, ‘The donkeys you set out to look for have been found.
9 As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul’s heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day.
11 When all those who had formerly known him saw him prophesying with the prophets, they asked each other, “What is this that has happened to the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?”
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Psalms62
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continue:
Justice and Mercy:
**WITH DAVID:
“The Lord has sought out a man after his own heart.” 1 Samuel 13:14, which brings this to mind:
27 He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ c ; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ d ”
Noting the scriptural text described: (as Jesus was the obedient son Philippians 2:6-11) Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
JUSTICE: (ANOTHER PART REQUIREMENT OF THE MESSIAH)
What is the will of God? To do justice. Micah 6:8 “He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Act, Love and Walk humbly with God
ISAIAH 61:
The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me:
to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners, a
2
He has sent me
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,
3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion—
Justice and Mercy:
**WITH DAVID:
“The Lord has sought out a man after his own heart.” 1 Samuel 13:14, which brings this to mind:
27 He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ c ; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ d ”
Noting the scriptural text described: (as Jesus was the obedient son Philippians 2:6-11) Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
JUSTICE: (ANOTHER PART REQUIREMENT OF THE MESSIAH)
What is the will of God? To do justice. Micah 6:8 “He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Act, Love and Walk humbly with God
ISAIAH 61:
The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me:
to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners, a
2
He has sent me
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,
3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion—
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ShowersofRoses
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ShowersofRoses
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The Psalm continues with prayer asking to be delivered from the Pit and from his foes. Jesus also prayed that He would be delivered from this trial, but asked that God’s will be done. He was delivered from the Pit when He was resurrected.
So, you may not accept this typology, but I think if you read the OT as foreshadowing of Jesus, you might understand it better. The important thing to remember is that some parts of the OT speak only of the coming Messiah, but many other verses in Scripture anticipate the coming Messiah as well as having a contemporary fulfillment.
Also, that verse in Matthew referencing the 30 pieces of silver is from Zechariah 11:12-13, not Isaiah:
> 12 Then I said to them, “If it seems right to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them.” And they weighed out as my wages thirty shekels of silver. 13 Then the Lord said to me, “Cast it into the treasury”—the lordly price at which I was paid off by them. So I took the thirty shekels of silver and cast them into the treasury in the house of the Lord.
Jesus did not despair, but He was deeply hurt by Judas’ betrayal even though He knew it was coming. He was also left alone without comforters in the Garden when Peter, James, and John kept falling asleep. And on the cross He was given vinegar to drink.
So, you may not accept this typology, but I think if you read the OT as foreshadowing of Jesus, you might understand it better. The important thing to remember is that some parts of the OT speak only of the coming Messiah, but many other verses in Scripture anticipate the coming Messiah as well as having a contemporary fulfillment.
Also, that verse in Matthew referencing the 30 pieces of silver is from Zechariah 11:12-13, not Isaiah:
> 12 Then I said to them, “If it seems right to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them.” And they weighed out as my wages thirty shekels of silver. 13 Then the Lord said to me, “Cast it into the treasury”—the lordly price at which I was paid off by them. So I took the thirty shekels of silver and cast them into the treasury in the house of the Lord.
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ShowersofRoses
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Just to clarify for Cardinalbird, you are coming from a Jewish perspective, correct? I believe he is looking for the Catholic perspective, so I just wanted to make it clear. I know Jews believe the Messiah needed to fulfill all of the prophecies at once, but Catholics believe in the two-part fulfillment. First, He had to suffer and die to redeem us and offer us salvation. And then in His Second Coming, when He will bring all the faithful to Heaven and reign with us eternally in joy and peace.
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ConstantLearner
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In believing in a two-part fulfillment, you are, by default, admitting that Jesus did not fulfill all of the messianic prophecies. If he had, there would be no reason for a second try.
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theCardinalbird
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My question to you then is why do you think that the messiah has to fulfill every prophecy in one lifetime? Is this limitation presented in scripture?
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Psalms62
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There are no two part fulfillment. You saw this with King Saul and the reason why David was chosen. What was the main reason why God chose David? Disobedience! In point, Jesus, as Paul stated, showed more than just justice but mercy. Like John 1 dictates - describes, “7 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”
The criteria “… And everything he [the king] does should be for the sake of Heaven and his intention should be to uphold the true religion and to fill the world with justice and to overcome (lit. - ‘break the arm of’) evildoers by force and to wage the wars of the Lord, for to begin with, a king is appointed only to do justice and wage wars, as it is said, … ‘And our king will judge us and go out before us and fight our wars’” (Maimonides, Hilchot Melachim , chap. 4, halachah 10).
The criteria “… And everything he [the king] does should be for the sake of Heaven and his intention should be to uphold the true religion and to fill the world with justice and to overcome (lit. - ‘break the arm of’) evildoers by force and to wage the wars of the Lord, for to begin with, a king is appointed only to do justice and wage wars, as it is said, … ‘And our king will judge us and go out before us and fight our wars’” (Maimonides, Hilchot Melachim , chap. 4, halachah 10).
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It might have made sense to include the verse. The article you posted said that Jewish people believed in two Messiahs so that’s kind of contradictory that everything had to be fulfilled at once.
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theCardinalbird
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I thought ConstantLearner gave us three verses?
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ShowersofRoses
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I don’t want to derail this thread, but you are correct in saying that we do not believe that all of the Messianic prophecies have been fulfilled. I don’t think you’ll find any Catholic scholar who says that. There are a number of prophecies that specifically speak to Jesus coming back. He refers to it repeatedly Himself in the Gospels and in Revelation.
Our belief in the Second Coming is in the Creed, which of course implies that something is still yet wanting. We long for Him to return and reign here forever.
He’s not coming back to try again, as if He just wasn’t good enough the first time. That made me laugh, thank you. Maybe third time will be the charm, huh?
No, Jesus is redeeming us in a two-step process, as it were. I’d like to quote part of @Mintaka’s post from earlier today:
He went to Heaven, having finished His mission of redeeming us. And now we do our work: studying and spreading the Faith, bringing compassionate help to the needy, etc., and re-presenting His perfect Sacrifice at Mass until the hour He comes back. We keep running the race He has set before us that we may be made worthy of Him, looking forward to the day we can be in His presence with Him for eternity.Mintaka said:
One Messiah, One Bridegroom, who both redeemed us and offers us all His free gift of salvation, who watches over us while the Church has grown and spread, and who will return in Triumph for the Marriage Supper at the perfect time.
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theCardinalbird
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Show me please
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ShowersofRoses
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You can google it and come up with multitudes of resources. Try this:ShowersofRoses:
Show me please
Catholic Scripture about the Second Coming
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ConstantLearner
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Ambiguous. Got anything specific?
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ConstantLearner
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But the Messiah MUST do it in one step. Or he isn’t the Messiah.
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theCardinalbird
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Is this scriptural? If so, please provide a quote
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ConstantLearner
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From the three major prophets.
One:
A shoot shall come out from the stump of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots. The spirit of the L-rd shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the L-rd. His delight shall be in the fear of the L-rd. He shall not judge by what his eyes see, or decide by what his ears hear. But with righteousness he shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked. Righteousness will be the belt around his waist, and faith-fullness the belt around his loins. The wolf shall live with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the kid, the calf and the lion and the fatling together and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze, their young shall lie down together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put its hand on the adder’s den. They will not hurt or destroy on all My holy mountain; for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the L-rd as the waters cover the sea. Isaiah 11:1-9
One:
A shoot shall come out from the stump of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots. The spirit of the L-rd shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the L-rd. His delight shall be in the fear of the L-rd. He shall not judge by what his eyes see, or decide by what his ears hear. But with righteousness he shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked. Righteousness will be the belt around his waist, and faith-fullness the belt around his loins. The wolf shall live with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the kid, the calf and the lion and the fatling together and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze, their young shall lie down together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put its hand on the adder’s den. They will not hurt or destroy on all My holy mountain; for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the L-rd as the waters cover the sea. Isaiah 11:1-9
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ConstantLearner
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Two:
The days are surely coming, says the L-rd, when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will dwell securely. And this is name by which he will be called: The L-rd is our righteousness. Jeremiah 23:5-6 (See also Jeremiah 30:7-10 and 33:14-18 )
The days are surely coming, says the L-rd, when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will dwell securely. And this is name by which he will be called: The L-rd is our righteousness. Jeremiah 23:5-6 (See also Jeremiah 30:7-10 and 33:14-18 )
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