What did Jesus have against goats?

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In Matthew 25:31 we hear “When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his throne of glory; 32 and all the nations will be gathered before him and he will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left.”

Ok, question from a newbie farmer: What did Jesus have against goats!? I have acquired 5 sheep and 2 goats this summer, and I’ve had a blast learning how to take care of them. I have learned that sheep are not “stupid” like I’ve heard for years, but they are flighty and don’t warm up to people very easily. They are also a bit dirty and smelly, though. They are rather fragile and easily injured, too. Now the two goats (Willy and Billy) are much more friendly (more like dogs), warm up to humans much faster, and will even eat out of my hand. They run to me when they hear my voice (so will the sheep though- they DO know their Mistresses voice)! I’m sure in Jesus’ day, people “got” the sheep and the goat example, due to their experience with both animals. However, I don’t understand why the goats get the bad rap in the parable, either. Can someone tell me what I’m not getting?

Thanks!
 
mommyof4 said:
In Matthew 25:31 we hear “When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his throne of glory; 32 and all the nations will be gathered before him and he will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left.”

Ok, question from a newbie farmer: What did Jesus have against goats!? I have acquired 5 sheep and 2 goats this summer, and I’ve had a blast learning how to take care of them. I have learned that sheep are not “stupid” like I’ve heard for years, but they are flighty and don’t warm up to people very easily. They are also a bit dirty and smelly, though. They are rather fragile and easily injured, too. Now the two goats (Willy and Billy) are much more friendly (more like dogs), warm up to humans much faster, and will even eat out of my hand. They run to me when they hear my voice (so will the sheep though- they DO know their Mistresses voice)! I’m sure in Jesus’ day, people “got” the sheep and the goat example, due to their experience with both animals. However, I don’t understand why the goats get the bad rap in the parable, either. Can someone tell me what I’m not getting?

Thanks!
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Perhaps because goats can’t really be sheered for wool, and their meat isn’t always that good? I really don’t know.

My family raises goats as well. We have about 7 milk goats, and they’re all very lovable. They ARE very skittish when you first get them, but they warm up pretty fast. The ones we’ve had for years are like family. 🙂

Btw, I love your avatar, “slave” indeed. 😛 My family owns some chickens too, and one dog, but no sheep.
 
I personally always thought that the goats always got the bad half of the deal because the sheep inevitably had to be the good ones (given the amount of religious symbolism associated with sheep and lambs, etc. ) But I looked it up in the Orthodox Study Bible and it says:

"Christ uses sheep to illustrate the righteous, for they follow His voice and are gentle and productive. Goats indicate the unrighteous, for they do not follow the shepherd and they walk among cliffs, which represent sin. "

I guess the cliffs things makes sense because cliffs are where you fall from, and I feel like I’ve heard several prayers talk about not falling or getting lost among the cliffs. I also found something else online:

"Much has been written about the humbleness of sheep as compared to the stubborn pride of the goat, and no doubt this has much to do with why Jesus chooses to call these people by these names. It does reveal to us, however, that one of the criteria Jesus uses to separate the two groups is by their disposition. Yet, while Christ certainly knows the heart, the Scriptures here and in other places indicate that the means by which Jesus Christ judges is by their works, which reveal their heart’s disposition. A tree is known by its fruit, says Christ. St. Cyril also states it thus:

How does the shepherd make the separation? Does he examine out of a book which is a sheep and which a goat? or does he distinguish by their evident marks? Does not the wool show the sheep, and the hairy and rough skin the goat? In like manner, if thou hast been just now cleansed from thy sins, thy deeds shall be henceforth as pure wool; and thy robe shall remain unstained, and thou shall ever say, I have put off my coat, how shall I put it on? By thy vesture shall thou be known for a sheep. But if thou be found hairy, like Esau, who was rough with hair, and wicked in mind, who for food lost his birthright and sold his privilege, thou shall be one of those on the left hand.

(Cyril, “Catechetical Lectures,” #15)"
 
Does any of the Old Testament symbolism have anything to do with it?

In the OT, sheep are used for sacrifice. Many of the heroes of the OT were shepherds, such as David. God said He would shepherd His people. Jesus claims to be the good shepherd.

What do the goats represent? In Genesis, Jacob uses goatskins to trick Isaac. Then Jacob uses goats to trick his uncle Laban.

It would seem that the average Jew in Jesus’ audience would have these pre-conceived notions of goats and sheep which will more easily illustrate Jesus’ points on the parable.
 
It’s not necessarily a comparison that’s flattering to humans… 🙂

Sheep need somebody to keep an eye on them, even if that’s a ram or a matriarch sheep. Goats don’t need anything from anybody.

However, in an edge-of-desert land, goats are pretty destructive animals to raise. They eat grass further down than sheep, making it harder for grass to grow back. They eat plants that sheep won’t, making it harder to keep the top soil on the ground instead of blowing away. If you don’t keep your goats on the move, they will eat every scrap of vegetation and turn that part of the land into a desert. Sheep have to keep moving to new pasture, which theoretically gives the grass time to grow back.

Somebody in the Middle East who doesn’t own his own land, and doesn’t much care about what happens to everybody else, will turn his goats loose all day, sure that they will come back in the evening after eating the heck out of the commonland. People who do own their own land, or have more regard for keeping the commons going, herd some sheep.

I love goats, too. They are smart and winsome animals. (And they’re good to eat, too. Don’t tell the goats I said that.) But they do have a talent for damage, if you’re not careful.
 
NotWorthy said:
Does any of the Old Testament symbolism have anything to do with it?

In the OT, sheep are used for sacrifice. Many of the heroes of the OT were shepherds, such as David. God said He would shepherd His people. Jesus claims to be the good shepherd.

What do the goats represent? In Genesis, Jacob uses goatskins to trick Isaac. Then Jacob uses goats to trick his uncle Laban.

It would seem that the average Jew in Jesus’ audience would have these pre-conceived notions of goats and sheep which will more easily illustrate Jesus’ points on the parable.
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I think actually it might just stem from the whole ‘scapegoat’ ritual in the OT, where a goat was ritually laden with the sins of the whole people of Israel and then driven off into the wilderness. So goats probably came to be seen as symbols of sin or sinfulness.
 
Note that the Passover Lamb could be either a sheep or a goat.
5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old; you shall take it from the sheep or from the goats;
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Exodus 12:5

It occurs to me that the goat, the cat and the snake all have a slit pupil in the eye and all are associated with evil.
 
We have raised sheep for years. They tend to flock together. They are predictable, once they learn a routine. They eat more grass than brush.

Some friends recently got some goats. The often split off into groups and go different directions.They wander farther than our sheep ever did, finding their way around and through fences. They practically climb trees and shrubs to eat them.They seem to have the ability to read minds in order to do just what you don’t want them to do. And the way they stare at you is eerie…

Hmmm. Do I sound prejudiced?
 
Another_Mary said:
We have raised sheep for years. They tend to flock together. They are predictable, once they learn a routine. They eat more grass than brush.

Some friends recently got some goats. The often split off into groups and go different directions.They wander farther than our sheep ever did, finding their way around and through fences. They practically climb trees and shrubs to eat them.They seem to have the ability to read minds in order to do just what you don’t want them to do. And the way they stare at you is eerie…

Hmmm. Do I sound prejudiced?
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Hmmmm… You, ma’am, are an anti-goatite! :tsktsk:
 
mommyof4 said:
Ok, question from a newbie farmer: What did Jesus have against goats!? I have acquired 5 sheep and 2 goats this summer, and I’ve had a blast learning how to take care of them. I have learned that sheep are not “stupid” like I’ve heard for years, but they are flighty and don’t warm up to people very easily. They are also a bit dirty and smelly, though. They are rather fragile and easily injured, too. Now the two goats (Willy and Billy) are much more friendly (more like dogs), warm up to humans much faster, and will even eat out of my hand. They run to me when they hear my voice (so will the sheep though- they DO know their Mistresses voice)! I’m sure in Jesus’ day, people “got” the sheep and the goat example, due to their experience with both animals. However, I don’t understand why the goats get the bad rap in the parable, either. Can someone tell me what I’m not getting?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Others have given much more better answers, but I’ll have a go:
Of course, the separation of the sheep from the goats are probably based on the actual practice where sheeps and goats are herded into separate folds. The assignment of roles is probably also on the basis of color: sheep are usually envisaged to have more whiter wool than Palestinian goats - which have long, black and coarse hair. Sheep wool tended to be used more for clothing than goat wool, which was made into tent cloths.
And probably also their general behavior: goats tend to fend on their own while sheep are generally dependent on the shepherd to care for them - without shepherds, sheep are defenseless.

Sheep were generally seen as more valuable in an economy that depended on both agriculture and flock-tending: they were raised primarily for their wool than for their meat, and slaughtering a sheep for a visiting guest was seen as generous hospitality. Both sheep and goats were cud-chewing and thus considered ritually clean (or kosher), meaning that their meat and by-products are edible. 😛

BTW, we would divert into their dairy products: back then, men normally never drank milk, it being reserved for women, children, the weak and the infirm. They instead ate products like curds, yogurt and cheese, especially goat’s cheese (the Greek feta cheese is a good example of this), and if they do drink milk, it would be goat milk. Moreover, women and children milked the goats, but milking the sheep were the men’s job. Often, a shepherd will have to wash his hands after intercourse before milking the sheep, but unmarried men were generally preferred when milking ewes.

And as LilyM pointed out, there is a difference between their use in sacrifices: the ‘honorable’ sheep was generally the animal of choice, but the animal designated for Azazel which carries the sins of the sons of Israel is the ‘shameful’ goat. It all boils down to the honor and shame culture of the Ancient Near East: sheep were honorable and were associated with men, virility, silence, courage, and the outdoor pastures; in some cultures, sheep were sacred to honorable gods (say, the ram to Zeus, Apollo or Poseidon). Sheep suffer in silence - they do not make noise when they are shorn or even when death is imminent, and thus became a symbol of honorable manliness, of silent endurance. Also, one ram can service a flock of at least fifty ewes. Shepherds have to be careful if the ewes dwindle, in order to prevent a fight from breaking out between two rams - which would happen if one ram tries to encroach on the ewe of another. Hence, sheep - particularly the ram - was also seen as a symbol of virility, strength, bravery and fierceness. Kings, princes and other honorable people were applied the very word.
 
Goats, meanwhile, were seen as shameful and were associated with women, femininity, weakness, lasciviousness, noise, and the indoors of the home. The Greeks associated them with the unrestrained, free nature-like deities such as the satyrs, Pan and Dionysus. They were seen as lascivious because, well, goats tolerate sexual access of other males to females in their domains. When two goats fight over a doe, the winner will cover her first and then later step aside and allow the loser to do the same. Males back then applied the goat imagery to husbands who were weak-willed and ‘allowed’ other men to commit adultery with their wives. Sometimes, the symbolism of goats were applied to women, due to that (rather unjust) stereotype that women are untrustworthy, unprincipled and the weakest links that could cause shame for their families (this in a culture that emphasized the group more than the individual). Because they are seen as the most vulnerable attacks on family honor, they must always be under the watchful eye of their father, brother or husband.

But whenever the Son of Man may come in His glory, and all the angels with Him, at that time He shall sit upon a throne of His glory, and gathered together before Him will be all the nations, and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the young-goats, and He shall indeed set the sheep on His right and the young-goats on the left.

The sheep, men’s animals, are set on the place of authority, the Son of Man’s right (the reason why we say that Jesus sits on “the right hand of the Father,” have terms like ‘right-hand man’ and associate the word ‘right’ with positive things), while the goats, the women’s animals and the source of milk and cheese for the family, are on the ‘shameful’ left side (the left direction having negative connotations throughout most of history, as the word ‘sinister’ - which comes from the Latin word for ‘left’ - testifies). Those assigned on the right side, to the sheep gathering, are those who practiced ‘hospitality’, which in the ancient Mediterranean was extended mainly by men and only to total strangers - kindness to relatives being classified in a different category - while those on the left were those who failed to practice it.

At that time, the King will say to those on His right hand, “Come, the blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom that has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world! For was I hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you gathered me in; naked, and you clothed me; I was weak, and you looked after me; in prison I was, and you came to me.”
At that time the righteous shall answer Him, saying, “Lord, when did we see you hungry and we fed, or thirsting and we gave to drink; and when did we see you a stranger and we received, or naked and we clothed; and when did we see you weak or in prison, and we came to you?” And the King answering shall say to them, “Amen, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of these, my brothers - the least - to me you did it.”

BTW, this TV ad reminded me of that passage.
 
Thanks for all the replies- hubby and I have enjoyed reading them. I’ve learned a lot, too.
 
So, what is the bottom line–that sheep are good and goats are ba-a-a-ad?

DaveBj
 
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