What did Jesus mean by this prayer/statement?

[SoulSolace]

‘Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.’ Luke 23:34

It seems pretty impossible considering the circumstances. Crucifying someone is a pretty horrendous thing. Crucifying God, quite worse.
So what did Jesus mean by the petition?

Thank You and God bless.

 

[MichaelHowling]

They did not truly believe they were killing God’s Son.

 

[SoulSolace]

They did not truly believe they were killing God’s Son.

But weren’t they given every opportunity to believe?

 

[MichaelHowling]

Those that followed, listened, etc etc There may have been some that had no idea what was going on .

The point is, the Lord was not only asking for their forgiveness but even went out of His way to offer an excuse for them…whether it be that they were thick headed, completely ignorant, or those that wanted the Lord killed but did not realize what they were FULLY doing.

 

[GEddie]

They did not know they were doing it to someone who was perfectly innocent.

 

[Sirach2]

‘Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.’ Luke 23:34

It seems pretty impossible considering the circumstances. Crucifying someone is a pretty horrendous thing. Crucifying God, quite worse.
So what did Jesus mean by the petition? .

Jesus gave us living example of letting go of injuries done to us by our persecutors, in the same manner as St. Stephen did (our first martyr). What we cannot do is apply Jesus’ words to the idea that God will justify and forgive all men, no matter whether they are repentent or not. Romans 12:19, “Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but give place to the wrath, for it is written, Vengence is mine, says the Lord. I will repay.”

We release them to God’s judgment and free our hearts from bitterness and anger, none of which were in the pure heart of Christ. As God, He may have known that their sin did not meet all the conditions for mortal, since the CCC says that we must KNOW that our sin is evil and do it anyway. We don’t know either, who Jesus was referring to. The crowd of bystanders who had nothing to do with it? The soldiers who were under obedience to carry out the command?

His request asking that the Father forgive them, does not mean that there was no ultimate punishment or judgment by God towards those who knew what they were doing … with malice!. Nobody could say in future readings of scripture that Jesus had a hard heart and did not follow his own advice. It was necessary to give example. Remember that Jesus said of Judas it would be better if he had not been born (so evil was his treason). We know not how the Father judged Judas, even though Jesus extended friendship when he asked him quietly, "Would you betray me with a kiss?"

 

[SoulSolace]

Jesus gave us living example of letting go of injuries done to us by our persecutors, in the same manner as St. Stephen did (our first martyr). What we cannot do is apply Jesus’ words to the idea that God will justify and forgive all men, no matter whether they are repentent or not. Romans 12:19, “Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but give place to the wrath, for it is written, Vengence is mine, says the Lord. I will repay.”

We release them to God’s judgment and free our hearts from bitterness and anger, none of which were in the pure heart of Christ. As God, He may have known that their sin did not meet all the conditions for mortal, since the CCC says that we must KNOW that our sin is evil and do it anyway. We don’t know either, who Jesus was referring to. The crowd of bystanders who had nothing to do with it? The soldiers who were under obedience to carry out the command?

His request asking that the Father forgive them, does not mean that there was no ultimate punishment or judgment by God*** towards those who knew what they were doing … with malice!. ***Nobody could say in future readings of scripture that Jesus had a hard heart and did not follow his own advice. It was necessary to give example. Remember that Jesus said of Judas it would be better if he had not been born (so evil was his treason). We know not how the Father judged Judas, even though Jesus extended friendship when he asked him quietly, "Would you betray me with a kiss?"

(Bold is mine)

I was explaining in another thread that before becoming Catholic, I had no idea there was such a thing as a mortal sin. A sin that actually separated me from God. It was met with some incredulity, and yet, I maintain it is sincere. (Or at least as far as I can discern at this point in my journey)
Now, once learning about mortal sin, I did confess those things I was ignorant of being mortal, so I didn’t use the ignorance as a loophole to get out of confessing.
And the entire exchange got me to wondering about Jesus’ words on the cross, and also remembering the time when I hit my knees in tears after some reflecting on my past and begging God to forgive me and saying “I didn’t know what I was doing.”
I was also curious how many former protestant, or OSAS believers experienced this same thing.

God bless.

 

[Sirach2]

I was explaining in another thread that before becoming Catholic, I had no idea there was such a thing as a mortal sin. A sin that actually separated me from God.

I suppose that is a difficult concept for some who hold to the once saved always saved theory. But we can find evidence of serious sin as opposed to light sins of ignorance in Lk. 12:48 where Jesus said,
A person who does not know, and then does something wrong, will be punished only lightly. When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; and when someone has been entrusted with much, even more will be required.

 

[JRKH]

But weren’t they given every opportunity to believe?

Yes they were. But failure to believe can come from many sources. One can fail to believe - even reject belief and still “not know what they do”…

However the greater significance to the statement by Christ is related to His teaching that we must forgive in order to be forgiven ourselves. If Christ had not forgiven his killers, how could He be the Christ?

Peace
James

 

[ClearWater]

‘Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.’ Luke 23:34

It seems pretty impossible considering the circumstances. Crucifying someone is a pretty horrendous thing. Crucifying God, quite worse.
So what did Jesus mean by the petition?

Thank You and God bless.

They didn’t know they were crucifying the Son of God.

 

[Jared2914]

My take is that not everyone just believes instantly, I mean really believes. Everyone can go through the motions, but it takes years before some people can truly say they know God exists and therefore, know the truth. My own life is an example of this. I am a cradle Catholic, baptized shortly after birth, did all the sacraments on time as I grew up. Even then I didn’t really believe until my late twenties. Just because someone has read the Bible and learned about the Catholic Church, doesn’t mean they have acquired the faith to believe. For most people getting that faith takes time. There are special examples like saints that were just instantly converted by God through the Holy Spirit, but most people are not blessed in that way.

Then think back to those times. Only the Old Testament existed but most people probably didn’t have access to all of the writings. Even if they did, most people couldn’t read it. They have heard from word of mouth about Jesus and his miracles, but think about yourself. If a bunch of people tell you someone is performing miracles, would you really believe? No, you would probably want to do a lot of investigating. Until you came to believe you might do bad things like join a mob to crucify a person.

 

[Nelka]

It shows that Jesus Christ is Merciful right until the very end.

 

[jesuspsr]

Yeah, they were just doing their job, they didn’t know they were crucifying our Lord and Savior.

Thiers a little book that I really enjoyed reading that explaines what Jesus said in those last hours of his life. It’s called “The Last Seven Words Spoken from the Cross”

God bless

jesus g

 

[SoulSolace]

Yeah, they were just doing their job, they didn’t know they were crucifying our Lord and Savior.

Thiers a little book that I really enjoyed reading that explaines what Jesus said in those last hours of his life. It’s called “The Last Seven Words Spoken from the Cross”

God bless

jesus g

I will look at the book, (thank you for that suggestion) my question in the interim would be “Weren’t the last words spoken from the cross for all and for all time, and hold a great deal of theological weight?”
Like when Jesus said “Man, behold thy Mother”, wasn’t Jesus speaking to mankind as a whole? And making a statement for all time?

In Jesus’ words from the cross, *Father please forgive them, etc…, *I see the grace of ignorance being stated.
But I’ve been wrong before.

God bless.

 

[mikekle]

Those that followed, listened, etc etc There may have been some that had no idea what was going on .

The point is, the Lord was not only asking for their forgiveness but even went out of His way to offer an excuse for them…whether it be that they were thick headed, completely ignorant, or those that wanted the Lord killed but did not realize what they were FULLY doing.

Yes, but Jesus knew this was going to happen before he was even born to Mary, in fact, it HAD to happen this way, so why offer an excuse for something God has ultimately planned to happen?

 

[Aloysium]

Yes, but Jesus knew this was going to happen before he was even born to Mary, in fact, it HAD to happen this way, so why offer an excuse for something God has ultimately planned to happen?

So you subscribe to the idea that Jesus committed “suicide-by-cop”.
I see you were “raised Catholic”. Someone didn’t do a very good job.

Although I am aware of my being uncharitable,
I am unaware of the impact this may have
while also believing that I am justified in being so.

 

[jesuspsr]

I will look at the book, (thank you for that suggestion) my question in the interim would be “Weren’t the last words spoken from the cross for all and for all time, and hold a great deal of theological weight?”
Like when Jesus said “Man, behold thy Mother”, wasn’t Jesus speaking to mankind as a whole? And making a statement for all time?

In Jesus’ words from the cross, *Father please forgive them, etc…, *I see the grace of ignorance being stated.
But I’ve been wrong before.

God bless.

Not only was he speaking to mankind, he was also setting a good example on forgiving our trespassers.

Here’s a sample from that book.

**THE FIRST WORD **
**“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.” **

Gospel of Luke 23:34
Jesus is looking down from the cross just after he was crucified between two criminals. He sees the soldiers who have mocked him, scourged him and tortured him, and who have just nailed him to the cross. He probably remembers those who have sentenced him - Caiaphas and the high priests of the Sanhedrin. Pilate realized it was out of envy that they handed him over (Matthew 27:18, Mark 15:10). But is Jesus not also thinking of his Apostles and companions who have deserted him, to Peter who has denied him three times, to the fickle crowd, who only days before praised him on his entrance to Jerusalem, and then days later chose him over Barabbas to be crucified?

Is he also thinking of us, who daily forget him in our lives?

Does he react angrily? No! At the height of his physical suffering, his love prevails and He asks His Father to forgive! Could there ever be greater irony? Jesus asks his Father to forgive, but it is by His very Sacrifice on the Cross that mankind is able to be forgiven!

Right up to his final hours on earth, Jesus preaches forgiveness. He teaches forgiveness in the Lord’s prayer: “Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us” (Matthew 6:12). When asked by Peter, how many times should we forgive someone, Jesus answers seventy times seven (Matthew 18:21-22). At the Last Supper, Jesus explains his crucifixion to his Apostles when he tells them to drink of the cup: “Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins” (Matthew 26:27-28). He forgives the paralytic at Capernaum (Mark 2:5), and the adulteress caught in the act and about to be stoned (John 8:1-11). And even following his Resurrection, his first act is to commission his disciples to forgive: “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:22-23).

God bless

jesus g

 

[Sirach2]

And even following his Resurrection, his first act is to commission his disciples to forgive: “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:22-23).

Your interpretation, where you explained that the disciples are to “forgive,” is not the meaning of that scripture. They are given the Divine Power to administer the Sacrament of Penance. This includes the ability to “retain” rather than absolve, especially in circumstances where the penitent confesses their unwillingness to change their sinful lives.

For instance, let’s say a person confesses fornication because he is living in a communal relationship without the sacrament of matrimony. Father advises that in order to receive absolution, the person may no longer stay in that relationship. The person admits he cannot give it up … therefore, Father rightfully withholds absolution … he “retains” the sin.

To obtain forgiveness, it is always critical to repent of one’s sins and have a changed heart. “A heart contrite and humbled, O God, you will not spurn.” Ps. 51:19

 

[mikekle]

So you subscribe to the idea that Jesus committed “suicide-by-cop”.
I see you were “raised Catholic”. Someone didn’t do a very good job.

Although I am aware of my being uncharitable,
I am unaware of the impact this may have
while also believing that I am justified in being so.

You are right, the catholic school I attended thru 7th grade did not do that great of a job…there is plenty I never even knew about until many years later.

Regarding Jesus statement of ‘they know not what they do’…well, what they ultimately did was crucify Jesus in order to save all mankind from their sins, so even if they did know the full truth, Id say, they would probably still have crucified him, I mean, what would have been the outcome had they realized who Jesus was and simply refused to crucify him…Mankinds sins would not be ‘bought and paid for’.

 

[JRKH]

You are right, the catholic school I attended thru 7th grade did not do that great of a job…there is plenty I never even knew about until many years later.

Regarding Jesus statement of ‘they know not what they do’…well, what they ultimately did was crucify Jesus in order to save all mankind from their sins, so even if they did know the full truth, Id say, they would probably still have crucified him,** I mean, what would have been the outcome had they realized who Jesus was and simply refused to crucify him…**Mankinds sins would not be ‘bought and paid for’.

Re: Bolded:
My guess is that if the Jewish nation as s whole had turned to Him and accepted Him…he would still have been crucified by the same people who actually DID crucify Him. The Romans.
In other words, the Jesus suffering and dying was not dependent on the Jewish leadership did.

Of course if that were the case, then some of the OT prophesies would have been different I guess…

Just a thought.

Peace
James