What did Jesus mean when he said He would not drink of the vine?

[StevenFrancis]

When we see jesus in the upper room we are actually coming in to the part of the passover meal where the “Cup of the Redemption” is being drank. The four cups signify the jewish exodus from egypt. These jewish passover requirements came over thousands of years from the time of the actual exodus to the time of jesus. To this day jews are required to drink 4 cups of wine at passover in their Seder meal. I would go to the Scott Hahn link or Watch this video www.the4thcup.com. It is pretty long but it is the best explanation of this topic. It goes a long way into answering the OP’s question. god bless

P.S. It is obvious that he was drinking from the third cup when he said “This is my Blood”, he was establishing a new covenant. The final cup he drank on the cross was the “Cup of Consummation” after this he said it was finished. Watch the video and comment !!

Sounds fascinating. Truly. I’ll be checking this out.

 

[budgie2]

“Truly I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”-what did he mean?

I don’t know whether or not the vine imagery is something that relates Jesus to Bacchus or Dionysus who are Godsof wine and intoxication in Roman and Greek paganism. I think Jesus does use some pagan imagery but he might also be presenting himself as a God of festivity. There may be other patrons of wine in other cultures.

This doesn’t answer your question but everything has been created by one God . Jesus takes over the role of some poly Gods in other cultures but we only worship one God and are monotheists.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus

 

[JPCalifornia]

I raed much about 4 cups and many being in agreement. My question is where does this view comes from and if anyone can justify it through the Scriptures. The Pasover meal was a eat and run plan, I don’t see them in the Scriptures passing different cups around.

 

[NotWorthy]

I raed much about 4 cups and many being in agreement. My question is where does this view comes from and if anyone can justify it through the Scriptures. The Pasover meal was a eat and run plan, I don’t see them in the Scriptures passing different cups around.

In regards to the Passover, you must go to Jewish Tradition. The Old Testament gives some “quick instructions” on how to do the Jewish Seder. But Jewish tradition had refined it over the centuries (not unlike the changes to the Mass over the last two millenia). We have explicit knowledge of how the Jewish Seder meal was done. It was very ritualized.

For instance,

It would begin with the youngest person asking, “Why is this night different from all the rest”. The oldest person at the meal would then tell the story of the first Passover Meal and the corresponding Exodus account. There was an empty seat at the table, complete with table settings for Elijah (remember, the Messiah was to come after Elijah returned). There were 4 cups (each having its own name… I just don’t remember the first 2… the other two have already been mentioned on this thread). Between the 3rd cup and the fourth, the Jews would sing the Hallel Psalms. These are songs 33-39? (give or take a few psalms). Hallel, btw, stands for praise, and its where we get the word Hallelujah (Praise God). In one of the Gospels, after the cup is drunk (“This is the blood of the New Covenant”), the Apostles are recorded as singing some hymns. This tells us where they were at in the Jewish Seder - After the 3rd Cup and before the 4th Cup, the Cup of Consummation. Immediately after singing the Hymns, the Apostles and Jesus leave and go to the Garden of Gethsemane.

Its important to note (as has been mentioned) that after drinking the spoiled wine (the vinegar) on the Cross, Jesus says, “It is Finished” (translated - “It is Consummated”).

 

[peeteyg]

Not Worthy has it totally correct. It is a subject worth studying, and I am trying to get set up for a Jewish Seder meal for the passover. It has been approved by my priest and is not in conflict. I will share my experience with everyone if they are interested. I would encourage everyone to look into the depth of this one topic. I also encourage everyone to read Psalm 22 and how it is a prophecy of the messiah. It also explains why jesus says “Father, Father why have you forsaken me ?” Again I think Not worthy has it totally correct. There is a depth to scriptures for those eager to explore its depths.

peetey

 

[JPCalifornia]

Interesting, I read the gospels and the conversations between Jesus and the disciples, the washing of the feet, the singing of the psalm, the bread and the cup with the fruit of the vine. But not the conversation about Eliah and the diferent cups. Interesting.

 

[NotWorthy]

Interesting, I read the gospels and the conversations between Jesus and the disciples, the washing of the feet, the singing of the psalm, the bread and the cup with the fruit of the vine. But not the conversation about Eliah and the diferent cups. Interesting.

You’ll find them in the Jewish Mishnah of the day. Not in the Scriptures. If I’m correct, the Mishnah is similar to our Catechism.

 

[huwdisciple]

To help one to understand what Jesus meant when he said he would not drink of the vine until the Kingdom of God comes (Luke 22:17-18) we should look at two other passages to give insight.

In the fourth Gospel in Chapter 2 Jesus attended a wedding and his mother came to him telling him they were out of wine. Jesus responds in verse 4 “…Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.”

The second scripture to look at is in the Gospel of John chapter 19:28-30. It should be noted that the vinegar (Oxos) was a sour wine.

After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished:…”

When Jesus drank the vinegar (wine) and said “It is finished” it was the hour he was referring to his mother in John 2:4 “mine hour is not yet come.”

He told the disciples that he would not drink of the vine (wine) until the Kingdom of God comes and then he drank the vinegar (wine) telling us it is finished thus bringing in the Kingdom of God when he gave up his spirit.

 

[NotWorthy]

To help one to understand what Jesus meant when he said he would not drink of the vine until the Kingdom of God comes (Luke 22:17-18) we should look at two other passages to give insight.

In the fourth Gospel in Chapter 2 Jesus attended a wedding and his mother came to him telling him they were out of wine. Jesus responds in verse 4 “…Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.”

The second scripture to look at is in the Gospel of John chapter 19:28-30. It should be noted that the vinegar (Oxos) was a sour wine.

After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished:…”

When Jesus drank the vinegar (wine) and said “It is finished” it was the hour he was referring to his mother in John 2:4 “mine hour is not yet come.”

He told the disciples that he would not drink of the vine (wine) until the Kingdom of God comes and then he drank the vinegar (wine) telling us it is finished thus bringing in the Kingdom of God when he gave up his spirit.

I don’t think this is entirely accurate. The Kingdom wasn’t ushered in until the Pentecost.

 

[Layp3rs0n]

I recently read about this in a book called “How Christ said the First Mass”, by James L. Meagher, D.D. He did a LOT of research. It covers exactly how the Last Supper would have gone, with an almost complete texts of hymns sung at this last meal that Christ shared with His apostles. He stated that the leader of the ceremony by Law had to drink all four cups. And as we know, he continues, Christ perfectly carried out every aspect of Judaic Law. So, After he states He “will not drink not drink of the fruit of the vine…” He almost immediately drank of the fourth cup anyway. Why? Because it’s no longer wine! Between the third and fourth cup He pronounces the words of consecration. It’s now His Blood.

 

[JPCalifornia]

I recently read about this in a book called “How Christ said the First Mass”, by James L. Meagher, D.D. He did a LOT of research. It covers exactly how the Last Supper would have gone, with an almost complete texts of hymns sung at this last meal that Christ shared with His apostles. He stated that the leader of the ceremony by Law had to drink all four cups. And as we know, he continues, Christ perfectly carried out every aspect of Judaic Law. So, After he states He “will not drink not drink of the fruit of the vine…” He almost immediately drank of the fourth cup anyway. Why? Because it’s no longer wine! Between the third and fourth cup He pronounces the words of consecration. It’s now His Blood.

I have read many things but never read of Jesus (a Jew) drinking his own blood. There is a lot of speculation going on here.

 

[NotWorthy]

I have read many things but never read of Jesus (a Jew) drinking his own blood. There is a lot of speculation going on here.

I agree. The Bible is completely silent on the matter.

If Christ followed the Seder rituals, He would not have drank from the 4th cup until after the Hallel Psalms are sung. In the Bible texts, immediately after the Psalms, Christ and the Apostles leave for the Garden of Gethsemane.

 

[Real_Presense92]

Matt 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

This passage is problematic because no prophetic statement can be found (using modern hermeneutics) that Jesus should be called a Nazarene.

However, using a first century hermeneutic:

The vow to not drink wine is suggestive of the Nazarite vow. There are others suggestions we should counsider:

1. The meaning of the word Nazarene suggests that Christ should be called a "Nazarite." 
2. Jesus filfilled the Nazarite law if you consider the law a prophetic shadow.
3. Samson as a shadow of Christ prophecies that he should be a Nazarite.

** Law of the Nazarite**

Elements that are suggestive:
Numbers 6:2

…When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD: 3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

Jesus took the vow at the last supper when he said he would not drink again until...

Numbers 6:5

All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow.

1Co 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

Long hair was just a shadow of bearing our shame. Jesus bore our shame on the cross

Numbers 6:6

All the days that he separateth himself unto the LORD he shall come at no dead body.

Jesus, during the time of his separation (in the grave) was not in contact with a dead body since it was an unused grave. Now you know why this was important.

Numbers 6:8

All the days of his separation he is holy unto the LORD.

All the days Jesus was separated from the Father were Holy. Though he was made sin for us, he had no culpability.

Numbers 6:9

And if any man die very suddenly by him, and he hath defiled the head of his consecration; then he shall shave his head in the day of his cleansing, on the seventh day shall he shave it.

The shaving of hair is losing ones covering for authority. As the Father forsook Christ on the cross, Jesus head was "shaved". And he was in the grave on the seventh day.

Numbers 6:10

And on the eighth day he shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons, to the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: 
11 And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, and make an atonement for him, for that he sinned by the dead, and shall hallow his head that same day. 
12 And he shall consecrate unto the LORD the days of his separation, and shall bring a lamb of the first year for a trespass offering: but the days that were before shall be lost, because his separation was defiled. 
13 And this is the law of the Nazarite, when the days of his separation are fulfilled: he shall be brought unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: 
14 And he shall offer his offering unto the LORD, one he lamb of the first year without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish for a sin offering, and one ram without blemish for peace offerings, 
15 And a basket of unleavened bread, cakes of fine flour mingled with oil, and wafers of unleavened bread anointed with oil, and their meat offering, and their drink offerings. 
16 And the priest shall bring them before the LORD, and shall offer his sin offering, and his burnt offering: 
17 And he shall offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, with the basket of unleavened bread: the priest shall offer also his meat offering, and his drink offering. 
18 And the Nazarite shall shave the head of his separation at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall take the hair of the head of his separation, and put it in the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offerings. 
19 And the priest shall take the sodden shoulder of the ram, and one unleavened cake out of the basket, and one unleavened wafer, and shall put them upon the hands of the Nazarite, after the hair of his separation is shaven: 
20 And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: ... 

Certainly all of the sacrifices were shadows of Christ.

Numbers 6: 20

...and after that the Nazarite may drink wine. 

After his resurrection, Jesus could drink again with the disciples. Christ had pronounced "It is finished" on the cross which declared the successful completion of all his works, including the fulfilling of the Nazarite vow.

amazing research. God bless

 

[rcjones]

I don’t think this is entirely accurate. The Kingdom wasn’t ushered in until the Pentecost.

Wasn’t Christ himself the first fruits of the kingdom? He didn’t need filled with the Spirit at Pentecost.

 

[NHInsider]

I raed much about 4 cups and many being in agreement. My question is where does this view comes from and if anyone can justify it through the Scriptures. The Pasover meal was a eat and run plan, I don’t see them in the Scriptures passing different cups around.

The celebration of the Passover changed over the centuries and by the time of Jesus there were many parts of the ritual that had come to have particular associations or significances which you will not find in the Torah. In fact the Passover ritual has continued to develop to our own time.

In order to understand what the expectations were around the ritual at the time of Jesus, for His disciples, and so to understand how His acts were understood by the participants, it is necessary to know how the feast was celebrated and understood in Jesus’ day, not only what was recorded in the Old Testament.

 

[NotWorthy]

Wasn’t Christ himself the first fruits of the kingdom? He didn’t need filled with the Spirit at Pentecost.

This is immaterial. The Holy Spirit came and filled people in the Old Testament (and prior to the Pentecost) but only on special occasions. My statement The Kingdom wasn’t ushered in until the Pentecost, meant that the Holy Spirit wasn’t ushered in, *en masse, *until after the Pentecost.

Oh, and Christ is the Kingdom, not simply the first fruits of the Kingdom.

 

[rcjones]

You are right hat the Spirit was given en masse at Pentecost. But,

Christ is the unbegotten only son, the only begotten son, and the second son. Being one does not negate the others.

He is the kingdom and the first fruits of it. Before the cross he said the “Kingdom is at hand” which means “here” speaking of himself in his own right. He was certainly there.

As the firstfruits he was the one to lead us into the kingdom in his resurrection.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

Those who were already dead were ushered into the kingdom at the time of the cross.

 

[NotWorthy]

You are right hat the Spirit was given en masse at Pentecost. But,

Christ is the unbegotten only son, the only begotten son, and the second son. Being one does not negate the others.

He is the kingdom and the first fruits of it. Before the cross he said the “Kingdom is at hand” which means “here” speaking of himself in his own right. He was certainly there.

As the firstfruits he was the one to lead us into the kingdom in his resurrection.

Those who were already dead were ushered into the kingdom at the time of the cross.

At the risk of further taking this thread off-topic, Christ did usher in the Kingdom, but He had to die and rise before this happened. If you recall the parable in Luke’s Gospel where Jesus talks of a young man who must go away and receive his kingdom. The kingdom is ushered in at Pentecost, but even then not fully. Not until the 2nd coming does it come in fully.

 

[JPCalifornia]

Could it be the that Christ is king over the hearts of those that submit to His will and that the hearts of all will be be expossed in the 1000 years mentioned in Apocalips 20.