What did Jesus Name Simon(Peter)

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toaslan said:
Runandsew, would you please just read the above bit I cropped out of the long research several posts above, if you’re not going to read the research itself???
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Please allow RunsandSews a little Levity. He’s enjoying himself, with a little bit of rapier wit, and I’m enjoying it, too.

Don’t you get the feeling his tongue is firmly in his cheek when he says that the KJV is the Bible that Jesus and the Apostles used? :rotfl:
 
toaslan said:
Runandsew, would you please just read the above bit I cropped out of the long research several posts above, if you’re not going to read the research itself???
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I was joking, I know that Jesus was referring to Simon Peter as “Rock”
Jesus spoke these words to Peter near Caesarea Philippi , where there is a large rock cliff with a temple to Pan on it, Jesus was using that as a back drop when he spoke to Peter in the Gospel of Matthew.
 
Back to refuting the Petros argument.

Even if you allow the arguement that Jesus meant Petros, or little rock, you are ignoring the fact that petros = little rock had gone out of Greek use 100’s of years earlier. Lithos was the term “of the times” for small pebbles. I believe Lithos is used something like 17 times in the NT, where petros would have been used were it still referring to pebbles and such.

I once heard of a Christian Apologist trying to claim that the usage of petros=small pebble had briefly gone back into existence for a brief period in the 0-100’s, but just as quickly it went out of style again. Now that’s grasping.

Incidentally, this helps to explain the brilliance of Mother Church in using the Latin language for all of Her Teachings. You see, since Latin is a dead language, the meanings of words don’t change with the changing times. E Pluribus Unum will always mean the exact same thing in Latin.

As a further example, if I read, “That car is hot!” it could mean different things.

In the 1970’s it would have meant the AC doesn’t work.
In the 80’s it would have meant that it was stolen.
In the 90’s it would have meant that it is a nice looking car.
 
runandsew said:
I was joking, I know that Jesus was referring to Simon Peter as “Rock”
Jesus spoke these words to Peter near Caesarea Philippi , where there is a large rock cliff with a temple to Pan on it, Jesus was using that as a back drop when he spoke to Peter in the Gospel of Matthew.
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r82/runandsew/CaesareaPhilippi.jpg
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That hole in the cliff was thought to be bottomless at the time, too. I understand it was often called the Gates of Hades. I think I saw Steve Ray’s documentary on it.

Hmmmmm…
 
Here is a Protestatnt response if I may. This is my own understanding having been raised Baptist. I am considering converting to Catholicism and this site is invaluable in my personal study. My understanding is similar if not identical to Randy’s descripion from the Baptist theologian.

Remember the context of the whole passage. Jesus and his disciples are in Phillip (I am pretty sure it was Phillipi) which at the time was the center of worship of pagan gods. So imagine Christ when he asks the question “Who do people say that I am?” in a great twist of irony he could have been sitting on the steps of a temple to Bachus or Venus or Zeus. I would love to think that he was sitting on the steps to the temple of the unkown god given the line of questioning(HA!)

Note that Christ did not direct the question at anyone in particular, but it was Peter who answered without hesitation the follow up questions “But who do you say that I am?” And with forcefulness and certainty he answers “You are the Messiah, the son of the living God.” Up to this point, Peter has suffered from a severe case of foot in mouth disease. In fact the name Simon means soemthing like “unreliable, vasilating” and he returns to this trait just prior to the crucifixion. Indeeed Peter’s forcefulness and certainty was often misdirected. Remember the sevants ear in the garden. Also his short walk on the water. But here Christ gives him an A+, and tells him that noone has told him this but it has come from heaven.

As Randy pointed out, a protestant would be loathe to think that a mere human could be a Big Rock on which the church was built. But rather it refers to little rock or pebble, and refers to the simple statement of faith that Peter made. And on this little rock (the statement of faith) Christ would build the church (the Big Rock). To back this up, Christ makes no bones about who would do the building of of the church (i.e I will build) and who would own the church (i.e. MY Church). And nicknames Simon “Little Rocky” to commemorate the moment.

Hope this has added something of value.

Tim
 
Yes, I see your point, but remember Jesus is not establishing Peters Church, he is establishing Jesus’ Church, but he is placing the Church in the care of Peter. Catholics know that Jesus is 'ROCK" and the “cornerstone” The “Rock” spoken of here is this passage is not talking about Peters character. or that the church will be Peter’s, but it is talking about his authority that Jesus will give him when Jesus ascends into heaven.
 
havemercy said:
Does it matter if Jesus calls Peter a ‘little rock’ or not? Jesus calls Simon “ROCK”, the end. The fact that Jesus gave him a new name should be enough to convince anyone of Peter’s importance in God’s plan.
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At least three other disciples had nicknames. James and John were “boanerges” or “sons of thunder”. “Thomas” is also not a given name. It means “twin”. There is nothing too unusual about this. Every army unit, boy’s school, trading team has the same sort of convention.

In fact Simon’s nickname was not in the diminutive. It was “Rock” or “Rocky”, not “Rocklet” / “Rockyboy”. However it wouldn’t have been of any importance had it been in the second form.
 
Petra means little rock; however, that is a trasliteration of Kepha which was the original Aramaic. The Greeks translated it to Cephas because that would make it masculine since the feminine (a) was not acceptable.
 
Tatyanna said:
Petra means little rock; however, that is a trasliteration of Kepha which was the original Aramaic. The Greeks translated it to Cephas because that would make it masculine since the feminine (a) was not acceptable.
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Come again?
 
NotWorthy said:
Come again?
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It wasn’t considered OK to have a feminine word, in the Greek grammar system, as a nickname for a man. It would sound as though Jesus was making him out to be a cissy, when in fact it is a hard name.
 
Malcolm_McLean said:
It wasn’t considered OK to have a feminine word, in the Greek grammar system, as a nickname for a man. It would sound as though Jesus was making him out to be a cissy, when in fact it is a hard name.
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I get that. But the post said:
Petra means little rock; however, that is a trasliteration of Kepha which was the original Aramaic. The Greeks **translated it to Cephas **because that would make it masculine since the feminine (a) was not acceptable.
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Petra meant at one time Large rock, not little rock. But this usage had passed away by the time of Jesus. Petra/petros simply were femine/masculine.

Kepha in the original Aramaic meant Rock, not big, not small, just rock.

That’s what I was questioning.
 
NotWorthy said:
I get that. But the post said:

Petra meant at one time Large rock, not little rock. But this usage had passed away by the time of Jesus. Petra/petros simply were femine/masculine.

Kepha in the original Aramaic meant Rock, not big, not small, just rock.

That’s what I was questioning.
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I’m sorry I misposted I meant to say that Kepha meant Large Rock…:o
 
This reasoning is too telescoped on itself for me. Could someone please sort this out?

IS THIS RIGHT:
John 1:42 You are “Cepha”–the word sound that actually issued forth from Jesus’ lips. It is Aramaic. This verse gives Cepha/Kepha, that being the same word sound from that moment to this. It didn’t go into Greek. It didn’t go into Latin. It didn’t go into English. We have today this Aramaic word just as Jesus Christ gave it and the evangelist recorded it.

Then we have the Greek detour:
Matt 16:18 You are Petros and upon this petra…Since we think that Jesus was actually, literally speaking Aramaic,
RIGHT?
then the petros/petra we can call the Greek version of the Aramaic Cepha. The Greek-writing evangelist is putting the idea contained in Cepha, the rock image, into another language. In that language, Greek, the evangelist **had **to put two different endings on the translated word. He used only one word for both applications in order to keep intact Jesus’ play on words: he put two different endings in order to fit the word first to a masculine subject (the male Peter) and second to a feminine subject (rock being feminine in Greek?)
RIGHT?

(Do we–(the Christian world-- have the Gospel of Matthew in Aramaic? Or is the original written in Greek?)
 
NotWorthy said:
I get that. But the post said:
Petra meant at one time Large rock, not little rock. But this usage had passed away by the time of Jesus. Petra/petros simply were femine/masculine.

Kepha in the original Aramaic meant Rock, not big, not small, just rock.
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In those pre-Jesus days, did Petra mean Large Rock Feminine? or Large Rock Neuter?

Is Cephas and Kepha the same word in the same language?
 
toaslan said:
In those pre-Jesus days, did Petra mean Large Rock Feminine? or Large Rock Neuter?

Is Cephas and Kepha the same word in the same language?
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I don’t know with the Feminine / Neuter question.

I think Cephas was the Greek for the Aramaic Kepha, though. I’ll see if I can find out later on, if someone else doesn’t beat me to the punch.
 
Tatyanna said:
Petra means little rock; however, that is a trasliteration of Kepha which was the original Aramaic. The Greeks translated it to Cephas because that would make it masculine since the feminine (a) was not acceptable.
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You’ve got the right idea, but a few of the words are mixed up.

Petra/Petros is a Greek translation of Kepha. To use the Greek “Petra” for Peter would identify him as a female. Hence the masculine ending.

Our word English “Peter” is a transliteration of the Greek “Petros”. (Or the Latin Petrus)

I’m not sure of the relationship between Kepha and Cephas. Do you know for sure NotWorthy if Cephas is a Greek **transliteration **of the Aramaic? It sure appears to be. I have often wondered about it when I’ve read the John 1:42 passage.

Nita
 
Nita said:
I’m not sure of the relationship between Kepha and Cephas. Do you know for sure NotWorthy if Cephas is a Greek **transliteration **of the Aramaic? It sure appears to be. I have often wondered about it when I’ve read the John 1:42 passage.

Nita
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This comes from Letters to the Editor on “This Rock” Magazine, as shown on Catholic Answers web-site.
according to my Bible dictionary, ***cephas ***exists in Greek only as an equivalent of the Aramaic word kepha, which means “rock” or “crag.” Matthew 16:18 is obviously Jesus’ fulfillment of his earlier promise to rename Simon to “Rock.”
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Something I find interesting:
I think there were only two other times when God changed the names of someone.
  1. Abram and Sarai - to Abraham and Sarah
  2. Jacob - to Israel
In both instances, He was establishing the foundation of what would be His people.

(I know in the NT, Paul’s original name was Saul; but there’s nothing to indicate his name change came about as the result of a direct command of God.)

Nita
 
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