What did Jesus Name Simon(Peter)

[NotWorthy]

(I know in the NT, Paul’s original name was Saul; but there’s nothing to indicate his name change came about as the result of a direct command of God.)

Nita

I think the Saul / Paul name change is simply a result of the Hebrew / Greek renditions of the same name. Notice his name is Saul until Chapter 13 of Acts. At this point, the Holy Spirit calls the Apostles to set apart Saul and Barnabas for this worked that they were called for and that is missioning to the Gentiles. The next time Saul is mentioned, it says, “also known as Paul”. From then on, as he missions to the Gentiles, Paul goes by the Greek rendering of his name. Maybe this helped bolster his (rightful) claim to be a loyal Roman citizen, which helped to get him out of numerous jams with the Jews of the Diasporra.

 

[toaslan]

I think Cephas was the Greek for the Aramaic Kepha, though. I’ll see if I can find out later on, if someone else doesn’t beat me to the punch.

waiting patiently

 

[toaslan]

This much I see:
Kepha=Aramaic for Rock
Petros/petra=Greek for Masculine or Big Rock/Feminine or Little Rock.
Peter=English for Petros

You guys seem to be saying that:
Kepha=Aramaic
Cephas=Greek
Petros/petra=Greek for Masculine or Big Rock/Feminine or Little Rock.

We have three Greek words for rock?

What is the rationale then, for going from Kepha to Petros/petra? If the desire is to go into Greek, why not just go to Cephas?

I’m not getting it.

 

[NotWorthy]

This much I see:
Kepha=Aramaic for Rock
Petros/petra=Greek for Masculine or Big Rock/Feminine or Little Rock.
Peter=English for Petros

You guys seem to be saying that:
Kepha=Aramaic
Cephas=Greek
Petros/petra=Greek for Masculine or Big Rock/Feminine or Little Rock.

We have three Greek words for rock?

What is the rationale then, for going from Kepha to Petros/petra? If the desire is to go into Greek, why not just go to Cephas?

I’m not getting it.

You’re a little off.

Kepha = Aramaic for Rock
Cephas = Greek translation of the NAME Kepha (Think Saul and Paul).
Petros = Greek for little rock AND masculine (Note: the “little rock” had gone out of use by the time of Jesus. “Lithos” was the term used for small stone or pebble around Jesus’ time)
Petra = Greek for large rock AND feminine.

 

[toaslan]

You’re a little off.

Kepha = Aramaic for Rock
Cephas = Greek translation of the NAME Kepha (Think Saul and Paul).
Petros = Greek for little rock AND masculine …Note: the “little rock” had gone out of use by the time of Jesus. “Lithos” was the term used for small stone or pebble around Jesus’ time)
Petra = Greek for large rock AND feminine.

THANKS! So:
Kepha=Aramaic for Rock
Cephas=Greek for Kepha (like Saul/Paul, Petros/Peter)
Petros= archaic Greek that Jesus wouldn’t have used for Little Rock, Masculine.
Petra=Greek for Large Rock, Feminine
Peter=English for Petros

Do I have it right now?

But, then:
Jesus would have uttered the Aramaic Kepha which all agree is = to what was then the corresponding Greek Cephas.
Why would the evangelist, writing in Greek, not use the nice Greek word Cephas in the “Upon this rock” passage? Why would he instead use the archaic Greek Petros? And thereby be forced into the petra usage?

 

[toaslan]

I’m surprised about this, Notworthy, and just double-checking:

Petros = Greek for little rock AND masculine …
Petra = Greek for large rock AND feminine.

It’s reversed in Spanish, where the diminutive is feminine. French too. Both Latin rooted. So Greek is opposite–in the language, the larger is the feminine, the smaller is the masculine? But male animals are generally bigger than female, and language usually reflects that, I thought. you sure about this? or is it only true in this pair, an exception to the general rule in Greek?

I don’t know Greek–and so have to take this on trust to some extent, I realize–

thanks!

 

[kaycee]

In the original language of Jesus. It is Kepha or Cepha, which makes no difference between little rock or large rock.

“You are Kepha and Upon this Kepha, I will built My Church.”

Was Mathew written in Aramaic or Greek?

 

[NotWorthy]

Was Mathew written in Aramaic or Greek?

Aramaic.

 

[toaslan]

Was Mathew written in Aramaic or Greek?

Notworthy:

Aramaic

So, Jesus said, in Aramaic, “You areKepha and upon this Kepha I will build my church”, and Matthew wrote, in Aramaic, “You are Kepha and upon this Kepha I will build my church.”

Then somebody else translated everything into Greek because Greek was the vernacular for the readers, right?

Then there is still a version of the same question: Why did the person who translated this passage into Greek from Aramaic not use the nice Greek word Cephas (equal to the originally spoken Aramaic Kepha), instead of the useless archaic Greek Petros (meaning little rock, masculine), thus forcing him to finish the phrase using the not archaic Greek petra (meaning big rock, feminine)?

Is the answer, that the person who translated Matthew from the original Aramaic into the vernacular Greek was not inspired? So he picked a uninspired translation over what would have been a better translation?

?

 

[NotWorthy]

So, Jesus said, in Aramaic, “You areKepha and upon this Kepha I will build my church”, and Matthew wrote, in Aramaic, “You are Kepha and upon this Kepha I will build my church.”

Then somebody else translated everything into Greek because Greek was the vernacular for the readers, right?

Then there is still a version of the same question: Why did the person who translated this passage into Greek from Aramaic not use the nice Greek word Cephas (equal to the originally spoken Aramaic Kepha), instead of the useless archaic Greek Petros (meaning little rock, masculine), thus forcing him to finish the phrase using the not archaic Greek petra (meaning big rock, feminine)?

Is the answer, that the person who translated Matthew from the original Aramaic into the vernacular Greek was not inspired? So he picked a uninspired translation over what would have been a better translation?

?

The Original version was inspired. The Greek Translation was not. I think (and this is only the Gospel of “Notworthy” so take it with some salt) the Greek translator saw the play on words that Jesus was making.

A) They are on a huge cliff at Caesarea Phillippi
B) Simon, you are “Rock”…
C) Upon this “Rock”…

Therefore he uses the Greek for Rock. Just because Cephas is Greek for the NAME Kepha, doesn’t mean Cephas means ROCK.

Think of it this way. What if “John” was Greek for Kepha.* Simon, you are John, and upon this John I will build my Church…*

It sort of loses something in the Translation, you might say.

If I’m correct in my conclusion, this would be a prime example of the Bible Translator giving us a Literal translation, instead of a Literalist translation. This means that the translator wanted to convey the intent of the author, rather than convey the literal translation.

 

[LittleDeb]

So, Jesus said, in Aramaic, “You areKepha and upon this Kepha I will build my church”, and Matthew wrote, in Aramaic, “You are Kepha and upon this Kepha I will build my church.”

Then somebody else translated everything into Greek because Greek was the vernacular for the readers, right?

Then there is still a version of the same question: Why did the person who translated this passage into Greek from Aramaic not use the nice Greek word Cephas (equal to the originally spoken Aramaic Kepha), instead of the useless archaic Greek Petros (meaning little rock, masculine), thus forcing him to finish the phrase using the not archaic Greek petra (meaning big rock, feminine)?

Is the answer, that the person who translated Matthew from the original Aramaic into the vernacular Greek was not inspired? So he picked a uninspired translation over what would have been a better translation?

?

I think I see your confusion. Cephas is a name to the Greek translator. Let’s say we were translating this from Aramaic directly to English using our current understanding of English. To have used the name Cephas to the Greek would have been the same as using ‘Peter’ to the current English speaker. So if we use the name, the quote comes out, “You are Peter and on this Peter I will build my Church.” Current English speakers would be shaking their heads asking about the lunacy of calling a guy named Simon by a different (and now common) name then repeating it. We need “Rock” in there to understand the play on words, so did the Greeks.

I hope that helps.

 

[toaslan]

I think I see your confusion. Cephas is a name to the Greek translator. Let’s say we were translating this from Aramaic directly to English using our current understanding of English. To have used the name Cephas to the Greek would have been the same as using ‘Peter’ to the current English speaker. So if we use the name, the quote comes out, “You are Peter and on this Peter I will build my Church.” Current English speakers would be shaking their heads asking about the lunacy of calling a guy named Simon by a different (and now common) name then repeating it. We need “Rock” in there to understand the play on words, so did the Greeks.

I hope that helps.

Oh, wow. the light came on. :extrahappy: Thank you, Little Deb, to infinity and beyond! So that’s what Notworthy was trying to tell me. Thank you, everybody!

 

[toaslan]

if I may, now what about this:

Was Mathew written in Aramaic or Greek?

Notworthy:

Aramaic.

I went to the Chacon/Burnham book Beginning Apologetics, The Canon of the Bible, page 10: (regarding the Septuagint) "This Greek translation of the OT was very popular because Greek was the common language of the entire Mediterranean world by the time of Christ. Hebrew was a dying languge (Jews in Palestine usually spoke Aramaic), and so…Remember, the entire New Testament was written in Greek."

?

 

[LittleDeb]

Oh, wow. the light came on. :extrahappy: Thank you, Little Deb, to infinity and beyond! So that’s what Notworthy was trying to tell me. Thank you, everybody!

And to further expand on it…I was thinking about it as I made my son’s breakfast…

The Greeks then have a clearer understanding than many current English speakers because ours takes away a little from the play on words. Our English versions say, “You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church.” This would have been the equivalent to the Greek version reading like this, “You are Cephas and on this Petra I will build my Church.” I have actually had many Evangelicals (who self interpret Scripture) say to me, “So you’re saying Peter actually means rock?!”

A priest I dearly love started out a homily like this, “So when Rock Johnson and his buddies were preaching… Oh wait, that’s right you guys know him as Peter or Simon bar-Jona. Study in Rome for awhile. You’ll be calling him Rock too.”

Gotta love him!

 

[toaslan]

And to further expand on it…I was thinking about it as I made my son’s breakfast…

A priest I dearly love started out a homily like this, “So when Rock Johnson and his buddies were preaching… Oh wait, that’s right you guys know him as Peter or Simon bar-Jona. Study in Rome for awhile. You’ll be calling him Rock too.”

talk about multi-tasking! suuper stuff, LDeb