What did Jesus save us from?

[Matt16_18]

verismo:

I need here a more concrete explanation of the Catholic position. What does being a slave to sin look like …

It looks like Catholics that don’t practice their faith.

what is its result?

Being a slave to sin results in war. War between the flesh and the spirit, with the flesh winning the battle.

… when I want to do right, evil is at hand. For I take delight in the law of God, in my inner self, but I see in my members another principle at war with the law of my mind, taking me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members
Romans 5:22-25

For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Romans 8:7-8

For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would.
Gal 5:17

I am carnal, sold into slavery to sin. What I do, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, but I do what I hate.
Romans 7:15

You will know them by their fruits.
Matt 7:16

… the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like
Gal 5:19-21

For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.
Mark 7:21-22

For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by men and hating one another …
Titus 3:3

What is Redemption look like …

Redemption looks like the God-man nailed to the cross for the sins of the world.

and what is its result?

What then shall we say? Shall we persist in sin that grace may abound? Of course not! How can we who died to sin yet live in it?
Romans 6:1-2

We know that our old self was crucified with him, so that our sinful body might be done away with, that we might no longer be in slavery to sin
Romans 6:6

… you too must think of yourselves as (being) dead to sin and living for God in Christ Jesus. Therefore, sin must not reign over your mortal bodies so that you obey their desires.
Romans 6:11-12

… thanks be to God that, although you were once slaves of sin, you have become obedient from the heart to the pattern of teaching to which you were entrusted. Freed from sin, you have become slaves of righteousness.
Romans 6:17-18

… put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the desires of the flesh
Romans 13:14

Let love be sincere; hate what is evil, hold on to what is good; love one another with mutual affection; anticipate one another in showing honor.
Romans 12:9-10

… you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds; they are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart; they have become callous and have given themselves up to licentiousness, greedy to practice every kind of uncleanness.
Eph 4:17-19

Put off your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
Eph 4:22-24

Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, with all malice, and be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
Eph 4:31-32

If the firstfruits are holy, so is the whole batch of dough; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Romans 11:16

… the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Gal 5:22-25

 

[Philthy]

verismo:

In apologetic endeavors, I have a problem explaining (especially to Protestants of the OSAS idea)…

If a Christian can still sin and it is counted against him as a sin: Jesus did not save us from sin.

If a Christian can commit “mortal sin” and still go to Hell: He didn’t save us from Hell.

So, in a Theology (Catholic) that believes that a Christian can still sin and go to Hell for it (like a Jew), what did Jesus save us from?

any thoughts?

Thanks.

Plenty of thoughts!

You must be VERY careful and deliberate and articulate not only in presenting Catholic theology, but especially in understanding it first. I don’t pretend to have all the answers, nor the skill, but your “if then” proposals above are unclear in their implications.

Lets start off with your first “if then”:

(a)IF a Christian can still sin and (b) it is counted against him as a sin: THEN (c) Jesus did not save us from sin.

Just to let you know, this wording is inadequate. You should have stated as such:
IF a christian sins AND it is counted against him THEN Jesus did not save him from sin. Nonetheless…

(a)First off, is there really any question in anyones mind whether or not we can still sin? Of course we sin.
(b)Second, of course our sin is counted as sin - what else would it be counted as? Why else did Christ suffer if our sins were not counted? Don’t forget 1John1:9 IF we acknowledge our sins (THEN) He is faithful and just and will forgive our sins… What could this mean other than our sins are counted against us but if we seek forgiveness it is granted?
(c)Here’s the tricky part: what does the word “us” mean exactly here? Does it mean everyone? {Some will tell that Christs sacrifice for all sins was perfect and that there is no more price to pay. But doesn’t that lead to “everyone” being saved? No it doesnt} Does it mean those who have died “in Christ” ie, as part of the body of Christ? Does it mean those who are “in Christ” and alive? Does it mean those who were once “in Christ” but have fallen away?
A paradox should have registered at this point in your logic centers: If Christ paid the price for our sins, how can they be counted against us? The answer, I believe, is that the gift of forgiveness, impossible without Christs sacrifice, is made available to all. But is only made actual to those who accept it and complete in those who remain “in Christ” until death. This discussion is usually framed within the context of the sufficiency vs the efficacy of christs salvific work. Catholics beleive that Christs crucifixion was SUFFICIENT for all, but EFFICACIOUS only for those who accept his gift and remain in His grace.
So, yes Christ saved us from sin since without his sacrifice we are all doomed. And no Christ did not save us from sin since if we fail to accept this gift, or choose to reject it after accepting it our sins are counted against us.

Phil

 

[Philthy]

verismo:

In apologetic endeavors, I have a problem explaining (especially to Protestants of the OSAS idea)…

If a Christian can still sin, and it is counted against him as a sin: Jesus did not save us from sin.

If a Christian can commit “mortal sin” and still go to Hell: He didn’t save us from Hell.

So, in a Theology (Catholic) that believes that a Christian can still sin and go to Hell for it (like a Jew), what did Jesus save us from?

any thoughts?

Thanks.

OK, on to mortal sin…
If a Christian can commit “mortal sin” and still go to Hell: He didn’t save us from Hell.
Again the “us” here is poor wording and ambiguous. No problem, it will reemphasize what we covered before. I would state it as such:
If a Christian can commit “mortal sin” and still go to Hell: He didn’t save all mortal sinners from Hell.
Again, hell still exists and Christ said people would be going to hell, so we know He didn’t save us ALL from hell. Just a fact.
Mortal sin is distinguished from other (venial) sin by its effects: it ruptures the relationship with Christ. After one commits mortal sin one is no longer “in Christ” Still, a mortal sin does not permanently separate one from God if the sin is confessed. And the reparation of the ruptured relationship is restored (Wow! Thats a lot of “r” words! ) And on what basis is that relationship restored? On the basis of Christs sacrifice.
So in the end, its more accurate to say that Christ MADE AVAILABLE the forgiveness of sin and the avoidance of hell through his salvific work on the Cross. Without that sacrifice we would all be doomed to certain judgement of our sins and condemned to hell.
Here’s an analogy on the subject framed for the “works vs faith” debate, but it illustrates our hopelessness without Gods initiative AND our duty to respond to it:
You have a pot, a watering can, a water supply and some dirt and you want to grow a flower.
You are hopeless without a seed. Nothing you do works. Your works do nothing!
God comes along and freely gives us a seed which begins to grow.Thank you God!
He also tells us - I’ll provide the Son, but you need to water the plant or it will die!
You water it at first, but eventually become weary, stop, and it dies.
Explanation:
The pot, can, water and dirt - everything we are - is us in our sinful state.
The desire for a flower is the desire for eternal life
The attempt to grow the flower without a seed is works without faith
The seed is God’s gift of Grace and without it there will be no “flower”
Jesus is the Sun - the metaphor was to good to pass up - also necessary (without it the flower can not grow)
The statement by God is His Word - it tells us what we need to do.
Failing to water the plant is “faith without works”
Watering the plant is the “works” part of eternal life - ignore them, and the plant dies. It grew for a while, but you let it die

 

[verismo]

Philthy:

…
Just to let you know, this wording is inadequate. You should have stated as such:
IF a christian sins AND it is counted against him THEN Jesus did not save him from sin. Nonetheless…

…

How is that different from what I said?

 

[Philthy]

verismo:

How is that different from what I said?

You started with a particular (“a christian sins”) and applied it to a universal (didnt save us). Gotta be careful to say exactly what you mean. Gotta know exactly what it is you want to say first…
Is that all you got out of those 2 posts?!!

Phil

 

[reen12]

Dear Mike,

quote; mhansen

As for me, I respectfully decline to answer at this time. I’ve never been accused of being the most “orthodox” Catholic, but even I know my limits.

That is very funny!

Maureen

 

[reen12]

Dear verismo,

Yours is a very complex question, I think.

The phrase removed “the burden of sin” is used
in the New Testament, as is the concept of
the righteousness of Christ becomes our righteousness.

A simple and biblical approach [to me]
is to say that Christ paid the price for our sins,
before the Father. He “became” sin. He lifted the
burden of sin from our shoulders, and took it on His.

He also took on Himself the harm that resulted, even
when a person didn’t *mean *to cause such harm…
diminished capacity etc.

He is our justification and salvation…in the sense that
He paid a debt that many of us could never pay ourselves.

He removed the guilt, as well as the penalty for sin, which
we would have had to have paid.
He made us right with God [righteousness] and
at one with God [at-one-ment =atonement.]

So, when a Christian sins, the burden of guilt and
the penalty for that sin is already “absorbed” by
Christ. He triumphed over sin and death.

Hope this helps,

reen12

 

[allhers]

…and let’s not forget that the wages of sin is death
so when Jesus redeemed us, He opened the way to eternal life.

 

[Philthy]

reen12:

Dear verismo,

Yours is a very complex question, I think.

The phrase removed “the burden of sin” is used
in the New Testament, as is the concept of
the righteousness of Christ becomes our righteousness.

A simple and biblical approach [to me]
is to say that Christ paid the price for our sins,
before the Father. He “became” sin. He lifted the
burden of sin from our shoulders, and took it on His.

I mostly agree with this - but it is a bit more complicated. Complications arise when you consider that despite paying the price for all our sins, some people still go to hell and pay the price themselves. So we wonder, “did Christ pay the price for their sins?” Some have been led to the belief that Christ didn’t pay the price for all our sins, just those of the elect. I find this disturbing that despite the biblical assertion that “God wishes all men to be saved” that some are predestined to hell. I find the Catholic position more reasonable and equally scriptural: Christs sacrifice was sufficient for the salvation of all, but only efficacious for those who truly accept it.

reen12:

He also took on Himself the harm that resulted, even
when a person didn’t *mean *to cause such harm…
diminished capacity etc.

He is our justification and salvation…in the sense that
He paid a debt that many of us could never pay ourselves.

He removed the guilt, as well as the penalty for sin, which
we would have had to have paid.
He made us right with God [righteousness] and
at one with God [at-one-ment =atonement.]

So, when a Christian sins, the burden of guilt and
the penalty for that sin is already “absorbed” by
Christ. He triumphed over sin and death.

Not bad theology, but loose. I could make a lengthy discussion of this topic but wont. Just because Christ has made reparation to God for our sins does not mean that we immediately enjoy that benefit, nor does it mean it is unconditional in being applied to us. I will simply quote one scripture verse that would seem to refute this concept of our sins already paid: “If you do not forgive others their sins, neither will your father in heaven forgive you yours” Sorry- cant find the address. People will continue to sin against us. We must embrace forgiving others throughout our lives in order to have our “father in heaven” forgive us as well…

Phil

 

[verismo]

Philthy:

You started with a particular (“a christian sins”) and applied it to a universal (didnt save us). Gotta be careful to say exactly what you mean. Gotta know exactly what it is you want to say first…
Is that all you got out of those 2 posts?!!

Phil

I did say exactly what I meant.

If “any” Christian can go to Hell for sin then “all” Christians are not saved from Hell for sin.

 

[verismo]

Folks, Just want to say thanks, and these are awesome replies, how about a rephrase:

OSAS: it is clear what “saved” means in their Theology, and it is clear and makes sense (as in it is a clear application of terms), and the believer in that model can clearly be seen as being “saved” from something, i.e. the chance of ever going to Hell for any reason. And you can clearly see how that is a “saved” version of the Jewish situation.

NOW

Given that in the Old Covenant, you went to Hell for sin, and in the Catholic New Covenant you do too, how do you quantify Catholic salvation.

I can’t use Scriptural proof of Mortal Sin etc., i.e. not negative proof of Heaven, but I need positive proof of it that is an improvement over the Old Covenant.

Here is a possible possibilities:

We Catholics actually are OSAS until we decide that we aren’t. The only real difference is OSAS and Catholicism is that we can undo our “osas-ness.” So, that as long as we are not in unrepentant mortal sin, we in effect are OSAS. Until we aren’t. You know what I mean.

OR

Well…it is a question of the Will. What happens now is our will is taken into account, whereas before it wan’t-just what you did. Orthodoxy is the rule as opposed to the OT’s orthopraxy. What you want not just what you do. Like Romans 7. Jesus saved us from going to Hell over things that we don’t really agree with doing, but can’t seem to stop. So, so long as we will against forbidden things, and we recognize and confess our failures: Heaven is actually assured to us.

 

[Matt16_18]

verismo:

The only real difference is OSAS and Catholicism is that we can undo our “osas-ness.”

IOW, Catholics don’t believe in OSAS at all.

OSAS means “once saved, ALWAYS saved”. It is the ALWAYS thing that forces OSAS Protestants into pernicious heresy, since all OSAS Protestants deny that a Christian can be damned for dying as an unrepentant apostate.

If Christians cannot be damned for the sin of apostasy, who can? How could a non-Christian ever become an apostate? Such is the absurdity of OSAS.

 

[Philthy]

verismo:

I did say exactly what I meant.

If “any” Christian can go to Hell for sin then “all” Christians are not saved from Hell for sin.

Our problem now is how you define “Christian”. Remeber: not all who call him Lord will enter the kingdom, but only those who do the will of his father. So lets get a little more specific on the term Christian and we will begin to make progress…

What did Christ accomplish for all of us?
He eliminated the certainty of hell for ALL of us. We ALL now have the possibility of eternal life because of what Christ did - no more than that though. To believe that we are all going to Heaven because of Christs savific work on the cross is a form of the heresy “Universalism”.
We know that what Christ did ALONE does not get us into heaven: we must AT LEAST accept his gift of forgiveness through faith - otherwise we go to hell. Protestants and Catholics agree on this.
So what did Christ accomplish?

• Before Christ: HELL is CERTAIN
• After Christ: HEAVEN is POSSIBLE

That is quite an accomplishment!

Is this helping?

Phil

 

[Philthy]

Matt16_18:

IOW, Catholics don’t believe in OSAS at all.

Technically, there is a form of OSAS for Catholics: postmortem OSAS! We believe that when your earthly life has ended that if you are judged as saved then that is your eternal destiny. Right?
Its just a question of when the “once” part occurs…

Matt16_18:

OSAS means “once saved, ALWAYS saved”. It is the ALWAYS thing that forces OSAS Protestants into pernicious heresy, since all OSAS Protestants deny that a Christian can be damned for dying as an unrepentant apostate.

If Christians cannot be damned for the sin of apostasy, who can? How could a non-Christian ever become an apostate? Such is the absurdity of OSAS.

good point!

Phil

 

[Contarini]

verismo:

In apologetic endeavors, I have a problem explaining (especially to Protestants of the OSAS idea)…

If a Christian can still sin, and it is counted against him as a sin: Jesus did not save us from sin.

If a Christian can commit “mortal sin” and still go to Hell: He didn’t save us from Hell.

So, in a Theology (Catholic) that believes that a Christian can still sin and go to Hell for it (like a Jew), what did Jesus save us from?
.

To say that someone is saved from sin but still habitually sins is to make a mockery of sacred language. Being saved from sin means that we don’t sin. Being saved from Hell means that we are no longer the kind of people who belong in Hell.

You need to ask them why they don’t want to be really saved from sin? Why do they just want to escape the consequences of their sin, instead of escaping their sin?

If you fall into sin through weakness, and repent and turn to the Lord, the Lord will always forgive you. It’s not that God is always looking to catch us slipping and zap us (though I think some traditional forms of Catholic piety and theology did give this picture). But if you give yourself over to sin, then you will lose your faith in Christ and be damned forever. Tell them that this was said by none other than Martin Luther (in the Galatians commentary on 2:17).

If you habitually sin, then you are not saved from sin. God does not deal in sham salvation. It’s as simple as that.

Edwin

 

[verismo]

Philthy:

…
Is this helping?

Phil

Well, the semanic stuff…no.

But your answer here is just the type I am looking for. That is my general, and usual reply.

But…

Hell was not certain to ALL before the Cross surely.