What did Luther "throw out"

[SnakeMauler]

What sacrements did Martin Luther leave out when he left the CC?
Today i just learned that Luther taught the faithful must confesss their sins to the pastor.

I guess while what Martin Luther did was bad, and while he did write some complete garbage such as “on the jews and their lies”, he did keep some good stuff. But he inexplicably got rid of some books like 2 Maccabees, which has might I say, very Christian theology, so, we’ll never know. What he basically did was create conflict for no real reason and there was no reason to do anything. I’m sure we’d all be fine without the Protestant reformation.

 

[Juliebug108]

I guess while what Martin Luther did was bad, and while he did write some complete garbage such as “on the jews and their lies”, he did keep some good stuff. But he inexplicably got rid of some books like 2 Maccabees, which has might I say, very Christian theology, so, we’ll never know. What he basically did was create conflict for no real reason and there was no reason to do anything. I’m sure we’d all be fine without the Protestant reformation.

If that’s your understanding of the reformation, then you are seriously misinformed.

 

[SnakeMauler]

If that’s your understanding of the reformation, then you are seriously misinformed.

Well jeez, listen to the coporal works of mercy and instruct the ignorant then. Why did we need a reformation? Who gives who the authority to do it? Did it really make peoples lives better?

 

[Juliebug108]

Well jeez, listen to the coporal works of mercy and instruct the ignorant then. Why did we need a reformation? Who gives who the authority to do it? Did it really make peoples lives better?

If you read through all the previous posts on this thread, you’ll find all of this has already been discussed. There needed to be reform because abuses and corruption were like a virus in the Catholic Church during that time. The sale of indulgences was perhaps the largest contributing factor. I have only heard maybe a handful of Catholics deny that reform needed to occur. Most that I’ve encountered simply think that Luther took it a bit too far and let his ego go to his head, but they do not deny that things needed to change.

 

[SnakeMauler]

If you read through all the previous posts on this thread, you’ll find all of this has already been discussed. There needed to be reform because abuses and corruption were like a virus in the Catholic Church during that time. The sale of indulgences was perhaps the largest contributing factor. I have only heard maybe a handful of Catholics deny that reform needed to occur. Most that I’ve encountered simply think that Luther took it a bit too far and let his ego go to his head, but they do not deny that things needed to change.

How can we be so sure these abuses were as widespread as Luther claims? I mean he lived in Germany. Its not like he traveled to places like Africa and eastern europe to check if abuses were there too.

 

[Juliebug108]

How can we be so sure these abuses were as widespread as Luther claims? I mean he lived in Germany. Its not like he traveled to places like Africa and eastern europe to check if abuses were there too.

The corruption was coming out of Rome. In fact, it wasn’t until after Luther went on a trip to Rome and was so outraged by what he saw that he began seeking reform. Also, following Luther’s movement, reformation was adopted in Switzerland, Zwingli, Scandinavia, Scotland, France, Netherlands, Hungary ,Ireland, and Italy. That’s pretty widespread.

 

[SnakeMauler]

Okay, you’ve got me convinced. Looks like I’m going to be a Lutheran from now on.

 

[fbl9]

Basically Luther did not “throw out” too much rather tweaked the teachings regarding sacrements.
However the biggest thing Luther did throw away was the authority of the Church.
You can’t “fire” me cause i quit!

 

[JonNC]

Basically Luther did not “throw out” too much rather tweaked the teachings regarding sacrements.
However the biggest thing Luther did throw away was the authority of the Church.
You can’t “fire” me cause i quit!

Its interesting, because Luther’s initial intent was to inform the Pope about abuses - a whistleblower as it were.

Actually, he kind of “got quit”.

Jon

 

[guanophore]

Its interesting, because Luther’s initial intent was to inform the Pope about abuses - a whistleblower as it were.
Jon

I often wonder if Luther had consecrated himself in prayer and obedience, if Reform would have occurred without the subsequent splintering. We do see this with other reformers, such as Catherine of Sienna, Teresa, and Hildegaard of Bingen.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Catherine of Sienna, Teresa, and Hildegaard of Bingen, Ignatius of Loyola. Yes there we have the example of the correct way to go about change. Even as late a Padre Pio and his involvement with the Blue Army.

Theres so many examples in other areas and analogys that we can go can go on all-day.

Ultimately, here in this time followers who do have some kind of belief in Christ are being lead astray. Not by the Lutherian Church, but by all the fractions of fringe thinking which resulted.

In the end the question can only be did this serve God or complicate the process of saving souls? No need to debate it. its a question one must honestly answer in their own reflection.

No doubt heretical idealism existed long before Luther ever came along. But look at todays situation? And no doubt the CC plays its part in all of this. But I’m affraid we have entered a dangerous period in the timeline of man. We shall need to do much better than we are doing or mankind will suffer. The prevelant sin of today and abomination which now is accepted as human life will not continue at this pace.

God Bless, Gary

 

[edowitz1]

Roman Catholic Doctrine Vs. The Doctrinal Teaching of the Word of God

Eternal life is a merited reward [1821, 2010]. - Roman Catholicism
Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 6:23)

No one can know if he will attain eternal life [1036, 2005] - Roman Catholicism
The believer can know that he has eternal life by the Word of God (1 John 5:13)

The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation [846]. - Roman Catholicism
There is salvation in no one but the Lord Jesus Christ, “for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)

Purgatory is necessary to atone for sin and clean the soul [1030-1031]. - Roman Catholicism
Purgatory does not exist. Jesus made purification for sins on the cross (Hebrews 1:3)

Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception (the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception) [490-492].
Mary, a descendant of Adam, was born in sin (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12)

Mary is the Mother of the Church [963, 975]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus ( John 2:1)

The Magisterium is the authoritative teacher of the Church. [85-87]. - Roman Catholicism
The Holy Spirit is the authoritative teacher of the church (John 14:26; John 16:13, I John 2:27)

The pope, as the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of Peter [882, 936] - Roman Catholicism
Peter had no successor, nor was he a pope.

The pope is infallible in his authoritative teaching [891]. - Roman Catholicism
God alone is infallible (Numbers 23:19)

Scripture and Tradition together are the Word of God [81, 85, 97, 182]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the Word of God (John 10:35, 2 Timothy 3:15-17, 2 Peter 1:20-21). Tradition is the words of men (Mark 7:1-13).

The sacrificial work of redemption is continually carried out through the Sacrifice of the Mass. [1364,1405, 1846]. - Roman Catholicism
The sacrificial work of redemption was finished when Christ gave His life for us on the cross (Ephesians 1:7, Hebrews 1:3).

God desires that consecrated bread and wine be worshiped as divine. [1378-1381] - Roman Catholicism
God forbids the worship of any object, even t hose intended to represent Him (Exodus 20:4-5, Isaiah 42:8)

Justification is lost through mortal sin [1033, 1855, 1874] - Roman Catholicism
Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:8-9).

Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works [1212, 1392, 2010] - Roman Catholicism
Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). In Christ the believer has been made complete (Colossians 2:10).

Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments [183, 1129, 1815, 2002]. - Roman Catholicism
Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation (Ephesians 2:10).

Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life [411, 493]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was a sinner; God alone is sinless (Luke 18:19, Romans 3:23, Revelation 15:4).

Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ [496-511]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary remained a virgin until after the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:25). Later she had other children (Matthew 13:55-56, Psalm 69:8).

Each Sacrifice of the Mass appeases God’s wrath against sin [1371, 1414]. - Roman Catholicism
The once-for-all sacrifice of the cross fully appeased God’s wrath against sin. (Hebrews 10:12-18).

The Bishops, with the Pope, as their head, rule the universal church. [883, 894-896]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ, the head of the body is the Head of the Church. (Colossians 1:18).

The faithful receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure through the Sacrifice of the Mass [1366, 1407]. - Roman Catholicism
Believers receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure in Christ through faith (Ephesians 1:3-14).

God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and Earth [966]. She is to be praised with special devotion [971, 2675]. - Roman Catholicism
The name of the Lord is to be praised, for He alone is exalted above heaven and earth (Psalm 148:13). God commands, “You shall have no other gods before Me.” (Exodus 20:3).

Mary is the co-mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions 9 968-970, 2677] - Roman Catholicism
Christ Jesus is the one mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions (1 Timothy 2:5, John 14:13-14, 1 Peter 5:7).

Mary is the co-redeemer, for she participate with Christ in the painful act of redemption [618, 964, 968, 970]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ alone is the Redeemer, for He alone suffered and died for sin (1 Peter 1:18-19).

The sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated in the Sacrifice of the Mass [1323, 1382] - Roman Catholicism
The Sacrifice of the cross is finished (John 19:30).

Indulgences dispensed by the Church for acts of piety release sinners from temporal punishment [1471-1473]. - Roman Catholicism
Jesus releases believers from their sins by His blood. (Revelation 1:5).

The Magisterium has the right to define truth found only obscurely or implicitly in revelation. [66, 88, 2035, 2051]. - Roman Catholicism
No one has the right to go beyond what is written in Scripture (1 Corinthians 4:6, Proverbs 30:5-6).

Scripture and Tradition together are the Church’s supreme role of faith [80, 82]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the church’s rule of faith (Mark 7:7-13, 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

 

[JonNC]

I often wonder if Luther had consecrated himself in prayer and obedience, if Reform would have occurred without the subsequent splintering. We do see this with other reformers, such as Catherine of Sienna, Teresa, and Hildegaard of Bingen.

And perahps his opponements had they done the same… The real issue is whether we, 500 years after the fact, can overcome the differences and move toward reconciliation.

Jon

 

[guanophore]

And perahps his opponements had they done the same…

Oh, that goes without saying! Had they been consecrated and prayerful people, then the corruption with which Luther found it necessary to take issue would not have been running rampant over Europe.

The real issue is whether we, 500 years after the fact, can overcome the differences and move toward reconciliation.

Jon

I believer Jesus wants unity, and He will have it! God grant that each of us may become a part of it.