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THEOPHILUS
Guest
- Status
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THEOPHILUS
Guest
My bishops are in the church, just as Paul and all the Apostles said. We must obey them as they teach us the Word of God.
And there are many bishops in many other churches, for the Church of Christ is Catholic ( Universal ).
But, correct me if I am wrong: this topic is not about bishops, is it?
THEOPHILUS†
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Genesis315
Guest
THEOPHILUS†:
I’ll start a new thread for you.
Like who? Name one. Or are they your preacher?
I’ll start a new thread for you.
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Lazerlike42
Guest
Jesus tells us that NOT everyone who has faith will make it to Heaven: “Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will” inherit the Kingdom of God (or something I don’t feel like looking it up lol)
In any case, something very important to remember is this:
The Caholic, faith+works position, and the (usually lol)Protestant faith alone position teach almost exactly the same thing.
Catholics start off by saying that you must have faith and works, but that true faith will inspire works.
Protestants say you must have true faith alone, but that a person without works doesn’t have true faith, so you must have both.
In other words, Catholics start of at Both and work down to faith, and Protestants start off with faith and work up to both. They say the same thing, they just go in opposite directions to say it.
This becomes abundantly clear if you read the various faith vs. works documents over on tektonics.org, an apologetics site run by a Protestant. He, unlike many Protestant apologists, is very concerned with using all the right means to intepret: the culture, the Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic, the context, all that jazz. Because of this, he presents (usually) a pretty well founded analysis. When it comes to faith vs. works, he makes mention of a cultural phenomenon known as the Semitic totality concept. Basically, he argues the faith vs. works from a Protestant perspective, but results in very Catholic conclusions, though he may not realize it.
In any case, something very important to remember is this:
The Caholic, faith+works position, and the (usually lol)Protestant faith alone position teach almost exactly the same thing.
Catholics start off by saying that you must have faith and works, but that true faith will inspire works.
Protestants say you must have true faith alone, but that a person without works doesn’t have true faith, so you must have both.
In other words, Catholics start of at Both and work down to faith, and Protestants start off with faith and work up to both. They say the same thing, they just go in opposite directions to say it.
This becomes abundantly clear if you read the various faith vs. works documents over on tektonics.org, an apologetics site run by a Protestant. He, unlike many Protestant apologists, is very concerned with using all the right means to intepret: the culture, the Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic, the context, all that jazz. Because of this, he presents (usually) a pretty well founded analysis. When it comes to faith vs. works, he makes mention of a cultural phenomenon known as the Semitic totality concept. Basically, he argues the faith vs. works from a Protestant perspective, but results in very Catholic conclusions, though he may not realize it.
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THEOPHILUS
Guest
The Rev. Father Keghart.
I named one
No need to start a new thread, for this doesn’t interest me.
THEOPHILUS†
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THEOPHILUS
Guest
It’s not the same to say Faith + works and Faith working through love. For when you say Faith + works, this means after believing, you need to do some things to be saved, while Salvation by faith means you are SAVED without anything you do, and then you do works as a RESULT ( fruits, as our Lord calls them ).
You can’t have the fruits of Salvation without having first the tree which is Salvation. You have that tree by faith without works.
Faith + works leads to self-righteousness.
THEOPHILUS†
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Lazerlike42
Guest
Father Keghart Kusbekian of the Antelias-based Armenian Catholicosate of Cilicia (dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=1&article_id=11548)
armenianchurch.ca/parish.php?parish=vn
(If this is not allowed I apologize, just inform me
)
armenianchurch.ca/parish.php?parish=vn
(If this is not allowed I apologize, just inform me
)
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Genesis315
Guest
THEOPHILUS†:
Sorry this is a bit of a hijack, but I’ve never heard that before. It’s pretty intriguing. You don’t have a problem with the whole “call no man father” thing?
Wow, you’re an interesting one. I’ve never heard of a non-denom call someone “father.” Are you sure you don’t have a denomination you want to share?The Rev. Father Keghart.
I named one
No need to start a new thread, for this doesn’t interest me.
THEOPHILUS†
Sorry this is a bit of a hijack, but I’ve never heard that before. It’s pretty intriguing. You don’t have a problem with the whole “call no man father” thing?
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THEOPHILUS
Guest
I am not calling anyone my Father. The Bishop is called Rev. Father Keghart
What, do you want me to change his name?We are going off topic, I guess :yup: Maybe because Roman Catholics do not believe in the existence of other Catholics…
In Him who saved us by His Blood,
THEOPHILUS†
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Lazerlike42
Guest
Faith plus works does not lead to self-righteousness any more than faith alone can. Believe me, faith alone absolutely can lead to self-reighteousness, I have seen it time and time again (especially since I was Protestant)
Jesus clearly tells us that if we come to Him, EVEN with faith, unless we have helped the poor and the needy and done various works that He will turn us away.
There are a number of reasons the faith alone, and true faith always produces works ideas don’t work.
For example, I know a great deal of atheists who love to do good works. It doesn’t mean that they have faith. The Protestant position, even though not all go as far as the Calvanist point of view, in most cases argues that in some way man is devoid of goodness and can only do good through the Grace of God. If this is so, atheists should do no good works.
For seconds, let me ask you a question. I trust you are a faithful, God-loving/fearing fellow who does plenty of good works. But let me ask you this: have you ever been out at the store and seen something you wanted, but knew you shouldn’t buy, or something along those lines, but bought it anyways? For instance, I have been with friends before, intending on staying in and watching television. Suddenly, we get bored and want to go out. Now, I know tha I should not go out and waste the money I have on something, and it has occured to me on several of these occasions that I should give the money to a charity, not spend it on the movies or something. I have given in and gone out. Does that mean I don’t have real faith? PLEASE! If you had any IDEA the way I live my life… If you did the same thing, as I am sure you have, does that mean you don’t have true faith? Of course not!
The biggest problem with that idea is this. When we are born, we have the free will to accept or reject God. When we truly accept Him, we have faith. Now, in the Catholic position, every moment of the day we are still in possession of our free will. We could freely reject God once more at any time. When we do good works, we are cooperating with God’s Grace and are accepting His Grace as He asks us to do works through our faith. However, we are still free to reject Him, and to not do the good works. In the non-Catholic, faith alone position, there is a major problem: we are prisoners of God, denied free will. If we have truefaith, then that means we will do works, which means that anybody with true faith is BOUND to do these good works because true faith necessarily produces them. We are not free to reject God any longer. The idea of faith alone by neccessity degenerates into a Calvanist, Irresistable Grace, Perserverence of the Saints heresy.
Jesus clearly tells us that if we come to Him, EVEN with faith, unless we have helped the poor and the needy and done various works that He will turn us away.
There are a number of reasons the faith alone, and true faith always produces works ideas don’t work.
For example, I know a great deal of atheists who love to do good works. It doesn’t mean that they have faith. The Protestant position, even though not all go as far as the Calvanist point of view, in most cases argues that in some way man is devoid of goodness and can only do good through the Grace of God. If this is so, atheists should do no good works.
For seconds, let me ask you a question. I trust you are a faithful, God-loving/fearing fellow who does plenty of good works. But let me ask you this: have you ever been out at the store and seen something you wanted, but knew you shouldn’t buy, or something along those lines, but bought it anyways? For instance, I have been with friends before, intending on staying in and watching television. Suddenly, we get bored and want to go out. Now, I know tha I should not go out and waste the money I have on something, and it has occured to me on several of these occasions that I should give the money to a charity, not spend it on the movies or something. I have given in and gone out. Does that mean I don’t have real faith? PLEASE! If you had any IDEA the way I live my life… If you did the same thing, as I am sure you have, does that mean you don’t have true faith? Of course not!
The biggest problem with that idea is this. When we are born, we have the free will to accept or reject God. When we truly accept Him, we have faith. Now, in the Catholic position, every moment of the day we are still in possession of our free will. We could freely reject God once more at any time. When we do good works, we are cooperating with God’s Grace and are accepting His Grace as He asks us to do works through our faith. However, we are still free to reject Him, and to not do the good works. In the non-Catholic, faith alone position, there is a major problem: we are prisoners of God, denied free will. If we have truefaith, then that means we will do works, which means that anybody with true faith is BOUND to do these good works because true faith necessarily produces them. We are not free to reject God any longer. The idea of faith alone by neccessity degenerates into a Calvanist, Irresistable Grace, Perserverence of the Saints heresy.
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THEOPHILUS
Guest
As you wish. But this is not what God says.
Yes, right. Jesus will turn us away if we are not truly saved as to help the poor and the needy.
Yes, right. The atheists can do many good works, even more than many Christians. But their good works are not to the Glory of the Father, i.e. no one glorifies the Father for their good works. So it is just as if they didn’t do any good work for heaven. They just did it to their glory. This kind of good works is what God calls dead works. They can’t save anyone.
Salvation is by faith, not by your obedience. It’s an obedient faith, not faith + your obedience.
Yes, that’s the Roman Catholic position. But the Bible says Salvation is by faith, without any good thing you can do.
Do you like to do that?
By the way: will we still be free in Heaven? If yes, can we reject God while in Heaven and go to Hell?
Just asking…Yes, indeed. Just as you also believe that every baby born is born in the original sin, as if the baby is BOUND to be sinner…
I am not Calvinist, so I can’t tell you if it degenerates there or not
Have nice time knowing Jesus more and more.
In Him,
THEOPHILUS†
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Lazerlike42
Guest
The answer, which I believe has been made by many theologians (perhaps Thomas Aquinas though I could be wrong), is that yes, we could reject Him in Heaven, but that nobody ever, ever would because of the true happiness that is in heaven (on this last part, about happiness, there is a much deeper theological understanding of it that I am not qualified to state).
Faith by definition includes obedience. There is no such thing as an obedient faith. By the very definition of faith as it was held by Jesus and the peoples of His time, FAITH=OBEDIENCE. The idea of a true, obedient faith vs. a faith lacking in obedience is fallacious, as faith and obedience to Christ are one in the same. A faith lacking in obedience is only a belief, NOT a faith.
Not exactly, no. The Bible says that works alone can get us nowhere, and this is true. The idea that works alone can be sufficient is called Pelagianism, and it was an early heresy condemned by the Church.
Further, you contradicted your own point. How can one be saved both by a faith which produces works, and also by a faith without them? I sense that you simply misstated your position, and you meant to say that we are saved by faith independant of any good things we do.
I also believe that you are referring here (or in other places) to St. Paul’s statement that we are saved “Not of works, lest any man boast.” I beleive that is why you say that works make men self-righteous.
Read the passage in context, however:
“Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
What St. Paul is saying here is essentially that works alone don’t save men. He is saying that we are saved through faith, not works, because if it were works alone men would boast. He is essentially condemning Pelagianism, though the idea didn’t have that title yet. There were people trying to teach (namely many of the Pharisees) that doing good works was all it took to get to Heaven. This is not at all true. St. Paul is saying that faith is required, but he does NOT say it is required ALONE. He merely says that we are not saved by works.
The faith alone crowd tends to create a false dichotomy between faith and works, acting as though it’s either or, and specifically acting as though Catholics teach it’s works alone! Having faith does not exclude doing works too. Both are required.
In any case, your position is that an obedient faith is all that is required. Well, ok, let’s say that’s all it takes. An obedient faith means we have faith, and because it’s obedient, we must obey God, though we are only obeying because of our faith. God tells us to do works. If we don’t do works, we are not obdedient, and our faith is not obedient. Therefore, however you arrive there, if we don’t do works, we’re not getting to Heaven!
Finally, Calvanism is the exact opposite of Armeniansim, which is what I believe you to be. Because of what Calvanism teaches about free will, it is impossible for an Armenien to truly (they say they do) believe in free will if they also believe in faith alone, because as I have pointed out faith alone binds us to be without free will.
Your statement on original sin shows such a fundamental misunderstanding of Catholicism that I am giving it its own post, to be up shortly.
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Lazerlike42
Guest
This statement shows a complete and utter misunderstanding of Catholicism that it deserves it’s own post. This is not even anywhere CLOSE to being correct, not even within a million miles.
Original sin is first of all a state. We as humans may either be in a state of Grace, in which we are accepting of and receiving the Graces of God, or we are in a graceless State, in which we are rejecting and have not the Grace of God. Original sin is a graceless state. It is not actual sin (it is not something counted against us as if we actually did something), nor is it a requirement to sin. It merely means we are born detached from God, without His grace working in our lives.
Along with original sin comes something called concupiscence. Concupiscence is a disorderment of our minds and souls which puts us out of line with what God wants. It’s basically a confusion of priorities. What it’s practical effects are is that we are more prone to sin. We are more likely to sin. We are NOT required to sin. No baby is BOUND to sin. Every person born is born in a gracelss state. No child is born with any requirement or binding to become a sinner.
Baptism conveys God’s Grace on to us. In laymen’s terms, we say it cleanses our original sin. What it technically does, though, is not cleanse us. In reality, Baptism conveys God’s Grace to us. Whereas we are born with no Grace, baptism puts Grace into us where it was no before.
Somebody else somewhere made the analogy to a ball. We are born as a ball. God’s grace is like water pouring on the ball. When we are born, we are round and the water just falls off the ball. Baptism is like smashing a dent into the top of the ball. This dent is then capable of filling up with water, God’s Grace. When we sin, we turn the ball upside down and dump the water (Grace) out, and make it so no more can come in. When we repent, we turn the ball back up so we can get Grace again.
Original sin does NOT bind us to be sinners in any way whatsoever.
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gardenswithkids
Guest
Romans 3:24 They are now justified by his grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.First of all, we are justified by **grace **as Paul tells us in this passage.
Romans Chapter 4 discusses the faith of Abraham. Abraham had faith in God, but he did not know God by the name of Jesus. Yet Abraham’s faith helped bring Jesus into the world because Jesus was a descendant of Abraham. How do we know Abraham had faith? Not because he performed lots of Jewish cermonies–Abrahams circumcision hadn’t even happen yet. (Romans 4:12) But we know from the story in Genesis that Abraham went where God led him, trusted God’s promise that God would give him many descendents, and he was willing to sacrafice his child to God. So Abraham’s faith was an active faith- a faith that trusted and was willing to do something. So while work of Jewish law aren’t needed, faith and works still cooperate with each other, responding to God’s initial grace.
Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whole we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand and we boast in our hope of sharing the glory of God. Romans 5:1-2
Note again the mention of God’s grace. Note also the use of the word “hope”, Paul follows this by writing next of our suffering leading to endurance, which leads to character, which leads to character hope. So again, even our hope flows from our actions combined with faith, but all of that is only possible through the grace of Jesus.
Romans Chapter 4 discusses the faith of Abraham. Abraham had faith in God, but he did not know God by the name of Jesus. Yet Abraham’s faith helped bring Jesus into the world because Jesus was a descendant of Abraham. How do we know Abraham had faith? Not because he performed lots of Jewish cermonies–Abrahams circumcision hadn’t even happen yet. (Romans 4:12) But we know from the story in Genesis that Abraham went where God led him, trusted God’s promise that God would give him many descendents, and he was willing to sacrafice his child to God. So Abraham’s faith was an active faith- a faith that trusted and was willing to do something. So while work of Jewish law aren’t needed, faith and works still cooperate with each other, responding to God’s initial grace.
Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whole we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand and we boast in our hope of sharing the glory of God. Romans 5:1-2
Note again the mention of God’s grace. Note also the use of the word “hope”, Paul follows this by writing next of our suffering leading to endurance, which leads to character, which leads to character hope. So again, even our hope flows from our actions combined with faith, but all of that is only possible through the grace of Jesus.
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Lazerlike42
Guest
That’s called sola gracia, and is an often overlooked point of agreement between Catholicisim and Protestantism. In fact, it’s more important than faith or works, but noody ever talks about it.
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johnpaullover
Guest
This should be simple.
Works in Paul’s epistle means works of the law. Passover, fasting, festivals, and so on. This in NO way contradicts James 2:24 which is perhaps the best refutation of SOLA FIDE.
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Lazerlike42
Guest
Correct. Actually, Tim Staples had a spectacular analysis of James 2:24 which simply destroyed most of the “James means works come with a true living faith” objections on one of the open forums on Catholic Answers Live. I wish I could remember which one. It may have been the open forum for non-Catholics from a month or two back, but I’m not sure. I think it’s a relatively recent show anyways.
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello All,
It is clear that St. Paul is talking about circumcision and the Pharisee created “law” when he tells us that the “law” justifies no one. St. Paul himself tells us that what matters is to obey God’s commandments if we wish to go to heaven. Jesus also tells us to obey the commandments if we wish to go to heaven.
The way people go to heaven is through the blood of Jesus, the reason people go to heaven is because they love God and love for God is accomplished through free from the will of God obedience to the will of God.
NAB ACT 15:1
Some men came down to Antioch from Judea and began to teach the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.” This created dissension and much controversy between them and Paul and Barnabas.NAB ACT 21:20 (St. Paul is speaking)
“You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have come to believe, all of them staunch defenders of the law. Yet they have been informed that you teach the Jews who live among the Gentiles to abandon Moses, to give up the circumcision of their children, and to renounce their customs.” **NAB PHI 3:5 (St. Paul is speaking.) **
I was circumcised on the eighth day, being of the stock of Israel and the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrew origins; in legal observance I was a Pharisee, and so zealous that I persecuted the church. I was above reproach when it came to justice based on the law. **NAB 1CO 7:19 (St. Paul is speaking.) **
Circumcision counts for nothing, and its lack makes no difference either. What matters is keeping God’s commandments.
NAB LUK 18:18
If with Christ you have died to cosmic forces, why should you be bound by rules that say, “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!” as though you were still living a life bounded by this world? Such prescriptions deal with things that perish in their use. They are based on merely human precepts and doctrines. While these make a certain show of wisdom in their affected piety, humility, and bodily austerity, their chief effect is that they indulge men’s pride.**NAB MAR 7:9 **(Jesus destroys the “law” to uphold the Law.)
He went on to say: **“You have made a fine art of setting aside God’s commandment in the interests of keeping your traditions! **For example, Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and in another place, ‘Whoever curses father or mother shall be put to death.’ Yet you declare, ‘If a person says to his father or mother, Any support you might have had from me is korban’ (that is, dedicated to God), you allow him to do nothing more for his father or mother. **That is the way you nullify God’s word in favor of the traditions you have handed on.” **NAB 2PE 3:14 Preparation for the Coming.
So, beloved, while waiting for this, make every effort to be found without stain or defilement, and at peace in his sight. Consider that our Lord’s patience is directed toward salvation. Paul, our beloved brother, wrote you this in the spirit of wisdom that is his, dealing with these matters as he does in all his letters. There are certain passages in them hard to understand. The ignorant and the unstable distort them (just as they do the rest of Scripture) to their own ruin. You are forewarned, beloved brothers. Be on your guard lest you be led astray by the error of the wicked, and forfeit the security you enjoy.
It is clear that St. Paul is talking about circumcision and the Pharisee created “law” when he tells us that the “law” justifies no one. St. Paul himself tells us that what matters is to obey God’s commandments if we wish to go to heaven. Jesus also tells us to obey the commandments if we wish to go to heaven.
The way people go to heaven is through the blood of Jesus, the reason people go to heaven is because they love God and love for God is accomplished through free from the will of God obedience to the will of God.
NAB ACT 15:1
Some men came down to Antioch from Judea and began to teach the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.” This created dissension and much controversy between them and Paul and Barnabas.NAB ACT 21:20 (St. Paul is speaking)
“You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have come to believe, all of them staunch defenders of the law. Yet they have been informed that you teach the Jews who live among the Gentiles to abandon Moses, to give up the circumcision of their children, and to renounce their customs.” **NAB PHI 3:5 (St. Paul is speaking.) **
I was circumcised on the eighth day, being of the stock of Israel and the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrew origins; in legal observance I was a Pharisee, and so zealous that I persecuted the church. I was above reproach when it came to justice based on the law. **NAB 1CO 7:19 (St. Paul is speaking.) **
Circumcision counts for nothing, and its lack makes no difference either. What matters is keeping God’s commandments.
NAB LUK 18:18
"Good teacher, what must I do to share in everlasting life? "Jesus said to him, "Why call me ‘good’? None is good but God alone. **You know the commandments: **
’You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not kill.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear dishonest witness.
Honor your father and your mother.’"
NAB ROM 2:13 (St. Paul is speaking.) For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; it is those who keep it who will be declared just. When Gentiles who do not have the law keep it as by instinct, these men although without the law serve as a law for themselves. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts. Their conscience bears witness together with that law, and their thoughts will accuse or defend them on the day when, in accordance with the gospel I preach, God will pass judgment on the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.**NAB COL 2:20 **(St. Paul is speaking.)’You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not kill.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear dishonest witness.
Honor your father and your mother.’"
If with Christ you have died to cosmic forces, why should you be bound by rules that say, “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!” as though you were still living a life bounded by this world? Such prescriptions deal with things that perish in their use. They are based on merely human precepts and doctrines. While these make a certain show of wisdom in their affected piety, humility, and bodily austerity, their chief effect is that they indulge men’s pride.**NAB MAR 7:9 **(Jesus destroys the “law” to uphold the Law.)
He went on to say: **“You have made a fine art of setting aside God’s commandment in the interests of keeping your traditions! **For example, Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and in another place, ‘Whoever curses father or mother shall be put to death.’ Yet you declare, ‘If a person says to his father or mother, Any support you might have had from me is korban’ (that is, dedicated to God), you allow him to do nothing more for his father or mother. **That is the way you nullify God’s word in favor of the traditions you have handed on.” **NAB 2PE 3:14 Preparation for the Coming.
So, beloved, while waiting for this, make every effort to be found without stain or defilement, and at peace in his sight. Consider that our Lord’s patience is directed toward salvation. Paul, our beloved brother, wrote you this in the spirit of wisdom that is his, dealing with these matters as he does in all his letters. There are certain passages in them hard to understand. The ignorant and the unstable distort them (just as they do the rest of Scripture) to their own ruin. You are forewarned, beloved brothers. Be on your guard lest you be led astray by the error of the wicked, and forfeit the security you enjoy.
L
linus
Guest
You’re absolutely right when you conclude that Paul is saying in Romans chapters 3-5 that a man is declared righteous before God through personal faith in Jesus Christ alone. When it comes to being justified before God Paul is VERY explicit in stating that works are totally excluded:
“…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus…” (Rom. 3:19-24).
"Now to the one who works, his wage is NOT reckoned as a favor (i.e., grace) but as what is due. BUT to the one who DOES NOT WORK, but BELIEVES in Him who justifes the ungodly, HIS FAITH is reckoned as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom GOD RECKONS RIGHTEOUS APART FROM WORKS…" (Rom. 4:4-6).
Do you believe the Apostle Paul was a Catholic or a “Protestant?” If a Catholic, then the “Protestants” are actually teaching what should be a Catholic message based on Paul’s Holy Spirit inspired writings.
When one carefully examines Paul’s soteriology (i.e., his “gospel”) presented in his Epistles, one clearly sees that Paul is very consistent in his BY GRACE message: *“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast…” * (Eph. 2 8-9).
Paul never concludes that salvation is ever devoid of works (see Eph. 2:10), but that works have nothing to do with attaining salvation itself. It is wholly a GIFT of God based on personal faith in the One who did all the work FOR US on the cross. True salvation faith produces works, but those works do nothing to produce one’s salvation. Salvation being a one time event through faith: “For by grace you HAVE BEEN saved through faith…” (see Titus 3:5).
Some have appealed to James. But James does not contradict Paul by concluding that one is justified by faith PLUS works. James is simply demonstrating a false faith, based on the fact that no works could be observed in the one who claimed he had truly believed. True faith will alway produce works, but works themselves can never justifiy.
Others have appealed to faith PLUS obeying the 10 Commandments. But the Apostle Paul calls these "letters engraved on stones" the *“ministry of death” * (2 Cor. 3:7) and “condemnation” (vs. 9). Commandments can only condemn a person, they cannot justify. They vividly show how one falls short of the glory of God. For this reason Paul called himself a servant of a new covenant, “not of the letter, but of the Spirit; FOR THE LETTER KILLS, but the Spirit gives life” (2 Cor. 3:6). The “letters engraved on stones” were the 10 Commandments. They were part of the Mosaic Law, and in his letter to the Romans Paul states:
“But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manisfested…even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe…” (Rom. 3:21-22).
Again Paul remains consistent in his divinely inspired writings when he states in Galatians:
"For if a Law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law (i.e., the principle of). But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise (justification) BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST might be given to THOSE WHO BELIEVE… Therefore the Law has become our tutor (prior to Christ) to lead us to Christ, that we may be JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. But now that faith has come WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A TUTOR…" (Gal. 3:22-25).
“Justification by faith alone” is not a “Protestant message,” it’s Paul’s. Was Paul a “Protestant?” Protestants have simply gone back to Paul’s teaching that salvation and justification are clearly by grace through faith as revealed in his Epistles. In fact, Rome would do well to carefully examine the Epistle written to them (Romans).
L
Lazerlike42
Guest
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Catholics do not believe that a man can be saved by his own works. -
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Catholics believe that only faith can save a person, and that works must go side by side along with it. Catholics believe that works without faith will not save anybody. -
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All Christians believe that only God’s Grace saves us. Catholics do too. In the Catholic belief, God wants us to have faith. When we have faith, we are cooperating with God, and letting his Grace create faith in us. All Christians believe this. Catholics also believe that God wants us to do good works, and that if we do them we are cooperating and letting God’s Grace do works through us. All Christians believe this. Catholics believe that if we do not do good works, we are not cooperating with God, and we are ignoring Him. Non-Catholics do not believe this. They will accept that God is doing good through a person when He is, but they deny that a person is ignoring God when someone does not do what God wants. Catholics accept the gifts of God and the responsibility that God has given. Non-Catholics will accept the gifts of God, but deny that He gives us any responsibility (because works are optional to them). -
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When we hear the word “faith” today, we think of something different from what the people of Jesus’ time thought. To us, faith means we believe and we trust. People of Jesus’ time also thought of obedience and loyalty when they spoke about faith. When an ancient person was told to have faith in Christ, they knew that they were supposed to believe in Christ, trust Christ, and obey and be loyal to Christ. Anytime a writer in the Bible used the word faith, they were telling us to do all four of these things. Since Christ tells us that we must help the poor, be good to people, and do other good works, we must follow his commands. -
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Jesus says that if we love Him we should obey his commands (John 14:15) -
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In John 9, Jesus heals a blind man. This is the famous blind man who cries, “I was blind but now I see!” When Jesus comes to the man, He tells the man to do something (go and wash in the pool of Siloam). After this action, the man receives his sight. He had to perform a work, not just have faith. -
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Jesus says on judgment day, He will tell those who have done good works to go into Heaven, but He will tell those who have not done good works to depart from Him into the eternal fire. (Matthew 25:31-46) Non-Catholics believe that all a person has to do to be saved is believe in Jesus and believe that He is Lord. The people Jesus sends to the eternal fire in this passage do have faith. They call Him Lord! When they plead with Him, Jesus does not seem to care that they call Him Lord. He is concerned with the fact that they have done no good works.
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