What did Paul really mean in Tit 3:5

[NoelFitz]

I am trying to understand Paul and at present I am considering Titus. I consider significant what I read in 3:5 (NRSV):

[H]e saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

I note this echoes the most important theme of Paul that we are made righteous not by our works. But Paul wrote that the mercy of God, our Savior, saves us, through baptism and the Holy Spirit, not through Jesus Christ.

But the Spirit is poured out through Jesus Christ, so in fact we are saved through Jesus. I wonder what did Paul really mean by the Holy Spirit (or holy spirit). Paul goes on to say we are justified by the grace of Jesus Christ, not the mercy of God, this reinforces the traditional view of the role of the grace of Jesus. But what exactly did Paul mean by this?

Thus here there is huge room for meditation, which might not seem obvious, or might seem too obvious, at first.

I would welcome comments.

 

[guanophore]

I am trying to understand Paul and at present I am considering Titus.  I consider significant what I read in 3:5 (NRSV):

[H]e saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

I note this echoes the most important theme of Paul that we are made righteous not by our works. But Paul wrote that the mercy of God, our Savior, saves us, through baptism and the Holy Spirit, not through Jesus Christ.

You are creating a false dichotomy that does not exist. Grace and mercy come to us through Jesus Christ. In Baptism, we are joined with Him in His death, burial, and resurrection. The washing of our souls by the cleansing blood of the cross is applied to us in the "bath of regeneration (baptism). The baptismal waters save us BECAUSE Jesus purchased our redemption by the shedding of His Blood on the Cross.

 But the Spirit is poured out through Jesus Christ, so in fact we are saved through Jesus.  I wonder what did Paul really mean by the Holy Spirit (or holy spirit).  Paul goes on to say we are justified by the grace of Jesus Christ, not the mercy of God, this reinforces the traditional view of the role of the grace of Jesus.  But what exactly did Paul mean by this?

For Paul, it is not “and not”. He does not separate the mercy from the grace of God. He does not separate baptism from the blood of Christ.

Thus here there is huge room for meditation, which might not seem obvious, or might seem too obvious, at first.

I would welcome comments.

I encourage you to read the catechism along with reading Paul. The Catechism will give you references in scripture and other Church documents so that your reading of scripture will be well informed by the teaching of the Church.

 

[NoelFitz]

Guanophore,

Thanks for your immediate reply.

I see you have almost 20000 posts. Wow!

A dichotomy is a division of two things that are different. Grace and mercy are different, thus there is no false dichotomy. In fact mercy, grace, baptism and the blood of Christ are all different.

I was making the point (not successfullty) that what is in Tit 3:5 is in agreement with traditional belief. We are saved by God’s mercy, which comes through the Holy Spirit, which in turn is through Jesus Christ, who justifies us. Where faith comes in is another day’s work.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Mercy is an aspect of grace, so to say they are different is mistaken. The blood of Christ is made available to us through grace, so I do not believe you can separate those two either. Baptism is the means of grace, etc. etc. I think you are, in fact, creating a false dichotomy as Guanaphore stated. Think of grace as the umbrella term, and all the others as extensions of that grace. Yes, God saves us through the Holy Spirit through Christ’s baptism, but out faith is what makes us receive that baptism.

 

[guanophore]

Guanophore,

Thanks for your immediate reply.

I see you have almost 20000 posts. Wow!

I just happenend to be passing through right after you posted it.

I am trying to catch up with PuzzleAnnie!

A dichotomy is a division of two things that are different.  Grace and mercy are different, thus there is no false dichotomy.  In fact mercy, grace, baptism and the blood of Christ are all different.

Where do you come up with this definition of dichotomy?

Yes grace and mercy are different, and the blood and the water are difffrerent. That does not mean they are diametrically opposed to one another, as you suggest. There is no opposition between the mercy and the grace, nor between the blood and the water.

I was making the point (not successfullty) that what is in Tit 3:5 is in agreement with traditional belief. We are saved by God’s mercy, which comes through the Holy Spirit, which in turn is through Jesus Christ, who justifies us. Where faith comes in is another day’s work.

Faith is the faculty by which we receive saving grace, that abounds from His Mercy toward us. Faith is part of our human makeup. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Our faith must meet with His grace so that salvation can happen. This is already being discussed in another thread.

 

[NoelFitz]

Guanophore

Concise Oxford English Dictionary
dichotomy /dʌɪˈkɒtəmi, dɪ-/
■ noun (plural dichotomies)
1 a division or contrast between two things that are opposed or entirely different.
2 Botany repeated branching into two equal parts.
– DERIVATIVES dichotomous adjective dichotomously adverb
– ORIGIN 16th century: via modern Latin from Greek dikhotomia, from dikho- ‘in two, apart’ + -tomia (see -TOMY).

Faith can be used in many different ways. One can refer to one of the three theological (or Divine) virtues, and thus it is a habit. Usually for a Catholic (it seems to me)* faith* means assent to doctrines, while for a Protestant it means trust in God.

 

[NoelFitz]

NW

*Grace *and mercy are different.

Catholics distinguish between actual and sanctifying grace, usually sanctifying grace is meant when we refer to grace . It is defined below.

CCC 2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

Mercy is something totally different.

CCC 2447 The works of mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in his spiritual and bodily necessities. Instructing, advising, consoling, comforting are spiritual works of mercy, as are forgiving and bearing wrongs patiently. The corporal works of mercy consist especially in feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and burying the dead. Among all these, giving alms to the poor is one of the chief witnesses to fraternal charity: it is also a work of justice pleasing to God:

Again for mercy other definitions are possible, but usually when we talk of mercy we refer to the works we do, as outlined above. The mercy of God is another subject.

 

[Bookcat]

I am trying to understand Paul and at present I am considering Titus. I consider significant what I read in 3:5 (NRSV):

I note this echoes the most important theme of Paul that we are made righteous not by our works. But Paul wrote that the mercy of God, our Savior, saves us, through baptism and the Holy Spirit, not through Jesus Christ.

But the Spirit is poured out through Jesus Christ, so in fact we are saved through Jesus. I wonder what did Paul really mean by the Holy Spirit (or holy spirit). Paul goes on to say we are justified by the grace of Jesus Christ, not the mercy of God, this reinforces the traditional view of the role of the grace of Jesus. But what exactly did Paul mean by this?

Thus here there is huge room for meditation, which might not seem obvious, or might seem too obvious, at first.

I would welcome comments.

All these things are taken together…not parsed out so much. Yes we are saved by Jesus Christ …and yes this is by Faith and yes such is by grace and yes water baptism is ordinary involved and yes it is not just a washing of water…but the Holy Spirit (who is involved too at every turn) and yes it is the mercy of God…

There are of course other aspects that can be emphasized…which Paul does in other places…or others do…or theologians since Different aspects …looked at from different perspectives…(saved by the Death and Resurrection of Christ…etc)

 

[Big_Dummy]

Eph 2:8-10

our good works are done through the Holy Spirit after salvation is given. All our works in our own power before salvation is rotten rags in God’s sight.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

No, NoelFitz, they are not different. What you are doing that you apparently don’t realize is quoting two parts of the Chatechism: one referring to the Grace of GOD, and one referring to OUR “works of mercy”. Mercy itself, however, is an aspect of God’s grace, we have none intrinsic to ourselves that can please him.

 

[NoelFitz]

Bookcat

Our religion is a both/and religion.

I see the point that we should not try to understand/parse our religion too much and just have a simple faith. But I also see that we should try to understand the depths and riches of our Catholic faith.

 

[ProVobis]

[Titus 3]

{3:1} Admone illos principibus, et potestatibus subditos esse, dicto obedire, ad omne opus bonum paratos esse:
{3:1} Admonish them to be subordinate to the rulers and authorities, to obey their dictates, to be prepared for every good work,

{3:2} neminem blasphemare, non litigiosos esse, sed modestos, omnem ostendentes mansuetudinem ad omnes homines.
{3:2} to speak evil of no one, not to be litigious, but to be reserved, displaying all meekness toward all men.

{3:3} Eramus enim aliquando et nos insipientes, increduli, errantes, servientes desideriis, et voluptatibus variis, in malitia et invidia agentes, odibiles, odientes invicem.
{3:3} For, in times past, we ourselves were also unwise, unbelieving, erring, servants of various desires and pleasures, acting with malice and envy, being hateful and hating one another.

{3:4} Cum autem benignitas, et humanitas apparuit Salvatoris nostri Dei:
{3:4} But then the kindness and humanity of God our Savior appeared.

{3:5} non ex operibus iustitiæ, quæ fecimus nos, sed secundum suam misericordiam salvos nos fecit per lavacrum regenerationis, et renovationis Spiritus Sancti,
{3:5} And he saved us, not by works of justice that we had done, but, in accord with his mercy, by the washing of regeneration and by the renovation of the Holy Spirit,

{3:6} quem effudit in nos abunde per Iesum Christum Salvatorem nostrum:
{3:6} whom he has poured out upon us in abundance, through Jesus Christ our Savior,

{3:7} ut iustificati gratia ipsius, heredes simus secundum spem vitæ æternæ.
{3:7} so that, having been justified by his grace, we may become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

{3:8} Fidelis sermo est: et de his volo te confirmare: ut curent bonis operibus præesse qui credunt Deo. Hæc sunt bona, et utilia hominibus.
{3:8} This is a faithful saying. And I want you to confirm these things, so that those who believe in God may take care to excel in good works. These things are good and useful to men.

 

[NoelFitz]

ProVobis

I note ypur post.

You give a Latin and an English version of Tit 3:1-8. Are you making some point?

My immediate reply to your post is “So what?”

 

[ProVobis]

ProVobis

I note ypur post.

You give a Latin and an English version of Tit 3:1-8. Are you making some point?

My immediate reply to your post is “So what?”

No point. Just presenting the origin and some context to those unfamiliar with Titus. I don’t understand why this particular line bothers the OP; there are various ways of translating it.

 

[NoelFitz]

**ProVobis **

many thanks.
you wrote

Just presenting the origin and some context to those unfamiliar with Titus.

The original was in Greek, so what you call the origin is a translation, as is the English one you gave.

 

[zarthan]

I am trying to understand Paul and at present I am considering Titus. I consider significant what I read in 3:5 (NRSV):

I note this echoes the most important theme of Paul that we are made righteous not by our works. But Paul wrote that the mercy of God, our Savior, saves us, through baptism and the Holy Spirit, not through Jesus Christ.

But the Spirit is poured out through Jesus Christ, so in fact we are saved through Jesus. I wonder what did Paul really mean by the Holy Spirit (or holy spirit). Paul goes on to say we are justified by the grace of Jesus Christ, not the mercy of God, this reinforces the traditional view of the role of the grace of Jesus. But what exactly did Paul mean by this?

Thus here there is huge room for meditation, which might not seem obvious, or might seem too obvious, at first.

I would welcome comments.

Greetings:

The mercy of God is represented by scriptures as the forgiveness of sins, which we have through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ in our profession of faith through baptism and the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is grace, a gift from our heavenly Father. There is another sort of grace, it is the grace by which we are enabled to live a holy life through our Lord Jesus Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 4:15-16 “For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has similarly been tested in every way, yet without sin. So let us confidently approach the throne of grace to receive mercy and find grace for timely help.”

The most perfect of graces from our heavenly Father is to abide in the holy love of our Lord Jesus Christ without which there is no holiness. These scriptures are a wonderful apostolic prayer for holiness: 1 Thess. 3:12-13 “May the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all just as we have for you, so as to strengthen your hearts, to be blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones.Amen}.”

 

[NoelFitz]

Zarthan

You wrote:

The mercy of God is represented by scriptures as the forgiveness of sins, which we have through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ in our profession of faith through baptism and the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is grace, a gift from our heavenly Father. There is another sort of grace, it is the grace by which we are enabled to live a holy life through our Lord Jesus Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

This is good stuff.

I had thought that we are forgiven our sins in the sacrament of penance.

 

[zarthan]

Zarthan

You wrote:

This is good stuff.

I had thought that we are forgiven our sins in the sacrament of penance.

Well, we are forgiven through the sacrament of penance. Sometimes, when we are not the confessional is not accessible, we can come to throne of grace to obtain mercy, especially if the sin(s) of commission, or the sin(s) of ommission are not serious, nor sins which easily ‘beset us’. We often need the anointed ones of the Lord to stand in the gap for us when we are struggling with habitual sins, whether they be attitudinal or actual. This is strictly my own position, and not the position of any Catholic teaching that I am aware.

God bless you too, and may you rest in peace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[NoelFitz]

Zarthan

thanks for your reply.

Like in most things I partially agree. When I was in school, about 1000000 years ago, I learned that venial sins can be forgiven without confession, and mortal sins if one has perfect contrition, which seems almost impossibvle to have.

 

[ProVobis]

The original was in Greek, so what you call the origin is a translation, as is the English one you gave.

Okay, here’s the Greek but I’m only a beginner at Biblical Greek so I can’t help you more.

5 οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων τῶν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ ἃ ἐποιήσαμεν ἡμεῖς ἀλλὰ κατὰ τὸ αὐτοῦ ἔλεος ἔσωσεν ἡμᾶς διὰ λουτροῦ παλιγγενεσίας καὶ ἀνακαινώσεως πνεύματος ἁγίου,