What did the crowd not know?

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As we heard this famous verse on Palm Sunday, I am interested in what others observe/believe/think when reflecting on this:

Luke 23:34New International Version (NIV)

34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

What did they not know? Of course, they did not know many things, and neither do we.

What did they not know, such that if they had known, they would not have called for the crucifixion of Jesus?

Thank you for your responses! 🙂
 
I always took it to mean they didn’t know they were crucifying God and the Truth.
 
As we heard this famous verse on Palm Sunday, I am interested in what others observe/believe/think when reflecting on this:

Luke 23:34New International Version (NIV)

34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

What did they not know? Of course, they did not know many things, and neither do we.

What did they not know, such that if they had known, they would not have called for the crucifixion of Jesus?

Thank you for your responses! 🙂
That Jesus Christ was the son of God.
 
As we heard this famous verse on Palm Sunday, I am interested in what others observe/believe/think when reflecting on this:

Luke 23:34New International Version (NIV)

34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

What did they not know? Of course, they did not know many things, and neither do we.

What did they not know, such that if they had known, they would not have called for the crucifixion of Jesus?

Thank you for your responses! 🙂
Always figured it was that they wouldn’t be killing the Son of God had they known who he really was.
 
I took it to mean , just as it reads they didn’t know , or accept that they were killing the son of God …Looks like most of us feel the same
 
And here I always thought he was just offering a critique about them not knowing how to carry out a proper execution. 😉
 
I took it to mean , just as it reads they didn’t know , or accept that they were killing the son of God …Looks like most of us feel the same
I think too that like us they really didn’t realize the gravity and effect of sin on themselves and the world.
 
I took it to mean , just as it reads they didn’t know , or accept that they were killing the son of God …Looks like most of us feel the same
If they truly knew that by him dying, he was taking the punishment for everyones sins, Id say they would have still chosen to go ahead with it.
 
And here I always thought he was just offering a critique about them not knowing how to carry out a proper execution. 😉
First I heard of that one! 😃
I think too that like us they really didn’t realize the gravity and effect of sin on themselves and the world.
Yes, I can really relate to that! Whenever I am condemning anyone, I am totally unplugged from the gravity and effect of my resentment.

Would you agree with my own observation, that not only was the crowd blind to His divinity, but they were also blind to his humanity? That they basically saw a negative value in the person they were hanging?
If they truly knew that by him dying, he was taking the punishment for everyones sins, Id say they would have still chosen to go ahead with it.
Well, it depends on one’s image of God I suppose. There are different ways of looking at the “substitutionary” or “payment of debt” approach (St. Anselm) vs. the “revealing the true God” approach, which is more in keeping with Pope Benedict XVI.

If the crowd had the image of God promoted by Pope Benedict XVI, it is hard to imagine them calling for crucifixion. If that of Anselm, yes. This is my understanding at this point.

Thanks, folks! 🙂
 
I always took it to mean they didn’t know they were crucifying God and the Truth.
That seems to be the most basic response, a great summary. The details get to be a bit more unclear. For example, is the Truth found in the infinite value of Jesus? If so, and since Jesus is found in all of us, the same Truth (and God) is found in everyone. And, when we do any such thing to the “least” of our fellow man, we do so to Christ! Does any human ever realize such value when they do evil to self or other?

I like the humility of your name! Me too. 🙂
That Jesus Christ was the son of God.
And in a very real way, we are all sons and daughters, are we not? Yet we bring evil upon others. I am thinking that there is something very universal in Jesus’ observation.

For example, I heard that Nelson Mandela reflected a great deal on Luke23:34 while in prison, and the verse was probably part of his call for forgiveness in healing post-apartheid South Africa. Were not all the promoters of apartheid blind and ignorant?
Always figured it was that they wouldn’t be killing the Son of God had they known who he really was.
Yes, I think so too. And would the murders have taken place in Brussels today if the murderers really knew the victims? (i.e, knew their value as much as they knew the value of their own parents?)
I took it to mean , just as it reads they didn’t know , or accept that they were killing the son of God …Looks like most of us feel the same
You have brought in the word “accept”, and I think that its use is very applicable. In their non-acceptance, do you find Jesus’ observation just as accurate, i.e., that their non-acceptance is also a matter of not knowing what they were doing?

If people really* know* Jesus, why would they not accept?

Thanks, folks, all great points!

Feel free, anyone, to cut in and answer one of these follow-up questions! Or ask one of your own…

Thanks. 🙂
 
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 The details get to be a bit more unclear.  For example, is the Truth found in the infinite value of Jesus?
No. Human beings are incapable of grasping the infinite, so we are not held accountable for that which is not possible for us to do. We must make moral decisions based on the degree of knowledge and revelation we have - it is not infinite.
If so, and since Jesus is found in all of us, the same Truth (and God) is found in everyone. And, when we do any such thing to the “least” of our fellow man, we do so to Christ! Does any human ever realize such value when they do evil to self or other?
Jesus is not found in all of us, in the sense that not all human beings are “in Christ”.

Yes, we are made in the image and likeness of God. Yes, whatever we do to the least we do to Him.

Some do realize the value, and they are so angry they do not make their decisions based upon the value of another person, but upon their passions.

The Apostle makes it clear that people choose to walk by the flesh rather than the Spirit:

“For the entire law is fulfilled in one statement: Love your neighbor as yourself.But if you bite and devour one another, watch out, or you will be consumed by one another. I say then, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.” Gal. 5:14

One who “bites and devours” another is walking by the flesh, and not by the Spirit, but this is not always because one is blind or ignorant. Sometimes it is malicious and willful.

You have championned the view that no one every willingly and knowingly rejects God.

There are some who are ignorant and blind, and thus reject God. But there are some who do see, and choose to reject Him. Lucifer was such a one.

“Those who passed by were yelling insults at Him, shaking their heads and saying, “The One who would demolish the sanctuary and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross!” He saved others, but He cannot save Himself! He is the King of Israel! Let Him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in Him. He has put His trust in God; let God rescue Him now–if He wants Him! For He said, ‘I am God’s Son.’” Matt. 29:39

These people had heard HIm preach, for they knew the content of his message. They heard his claim to raise the temple in three days. they heard HIs claim to be the Son of God. They heard the stories that he had saved others. They knew He put his trust in the Father. These people were not ignorant of His message.
And in a very real way, we are all sons and daughters, are we not? Yet we bring evil upon others.
In the sense that we are made in the image and likeness sof God, perhaps. But adoption into the Kingdom, where we become spiritually members of His One Body, the Church is not the condition of every person. In fact, Christ testified:

"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45"But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.…John 8:44

Some of the Jews chose to reject God, and Christ. They aligned themselves instead with the first one who rejected God (Lucifer). This was a choice they made - not to believe the Truth He brought.
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 Were not all the promoters of apartheid blind and ignorant?
Perhaps. Some were just mean and greedy.
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 And would the murders have taken place in Brussels today if the murderers really knew the victims?  (i.e, knew their value as much as they knew the value of their own parents?)
It is a choice, OneSheep, to degrade others. It is walking according to the flesh, and not by the Spirit.
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 You have brought in the word "accept", and I think that its use is very applicable.  In their non-acceptance, do you find Jesus' observation just as accurate, i.e., that their non-acceptance is also a matter of not knowing what they were doing?
Those who jeered at Christ on the cross heard His preaching, and knowingly and willingly mocked him - rejecting HIs message.

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!” Luke 13:34
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 If people really* know* Jesus, why would they not accept?
Each of those who heard Jesus’ message, including those who mocked him on the cross, had sufficient knowledge and grace to accept Him. Their hearts were hardened and “they would not have it!”

You seem to want to believe that, if a human being really “knew” and “saw” the truth, they would accept Christ, but this is not the case.
 
No. Human beings are incapable of grasping the infinite, so we are not held accountable for that which is not possible for us to do. We must make moral decisions based on the degree of knowledge and revelation we have - it is not infinite.

Jesus is not found in all of us, in the sense that not all human beings are “in Christ”.

Yes, we are made in the image and likeness of God. Yes, whatever we do to the least we do to Him.

Some do realize the value, and they are so angry they do not make their decisions based upon the value of another person, but upon their passions.

The Apostle makes it clear that people choose to walk by the flesh rather than the Spirit:

“For the entire law is fulfilled in one statement: Love your neighbor as yourself.But if you bite and devour one another, watch out, or you will be consumed by one another. I say then, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.” Gal. 5:14

One who “bites and devours” another is walking by the flesh, and not by the Spirit, but this is not always because one is blind or ignorant. Sometimes it is malicious and willful.

You have championned the view that no one every willingly and knowingly rejects God.

There are some who are ignorant and blind, and thus reject God. But there are some who do see, and choose to reject Him. Lucifer was such a one.

“Those who passed by were yelling insults at Him, shaking their heads and saying, “The One who would demolish the sanctuary and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross!” He saved others, but He cannot save Himself! He is the King of Israel! Let Him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in Him. He has put His trust in God; let God rescue Him now–if He wants Him! For He said, ‘I am God’s Son.’” Matt. 29:39

These people had heard HIm preach, for they knew the content of his message. They heard his claim to raise the temple in three days. they heard HIs claim to be the Son of God. They heard the stories that he had saved others. They knew He put his trust in the Father. These people were not ignorant of His message.

In the sense that we are made in the image and likeness sof God, perhaps. But adoption into the Kingdom, where we become spiritually members of His One Body, the Church is not the condition of every person. In fact, Christ testified:

"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45"But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.…John 8:44

Some of the Jews chose to reject God, and Christ. They aligned themselves instead with the first one who rejected God (Lucifer). This was a choice they made - not to believe the Truth He brought.

Perhaps. Some were just mean and greedy.

It is a choice, OneSheep, to degrade others. It is walking according to the flesh, and not by the Spirit.

Those who jeered at Christ on the cross heard His preaching, and knowingly and willingly mocked him - rejecting HIs message.

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!” Luke 13:34

Each of those who heard Jesus’ message, including those who mocked him on the cross, had sufficient knowledge and grace to accept Him. Their hearts were hardened and “they would not have it!”

You seem to want to believe that, if a human being really “knew” and “saw” the truth, they would accept Christ, but this is not the case.
Hello, Guanophore!

I would love to respond to your post, but first, a question.

Can we agree that we will remain charitable, that first and foremost we will write charitably to one another?

If so, let us shake hands and agree, okay? 🙂 I am quite certain that anyone else on the CAF would be happy to do so.

Thanks.
 
As we heard this famous verse on Palm Sunday, I am interested in what others observe/believe/think when reflecting on this:

Luke 23:34New International Version (NIV)

34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

What did they not know? Of course, they did not know many things, and neither do we.

What did they not know, such that if they had known, they would not have called for the crucifixion of Jesus?

Thank you for your responses! 🙂
I believe, and it’s only my idea, that he meant they didn’t know the full consequences of their actions. Sure, they knew they had sent an innocent man to his death–that alone made them guilty of breaking God’s law, but just what this death would mean they didn’t know or could not accept. And that was the end of all they held dear and the beginning of another era for them and for the world. Even though Jesus had predicted their downfall, they still believed God would raise up another David to deliver them from the Romans. Instead, Jerusalem was destroyed, and the temple worship along with it. They were scattered to the four corners of the world Pretty big consequences, even without having rejected the Messiah.

I saw a very interesting TV show about assassins from ancient times and one of the groups they portrayed were the Jewish assassins who killed those who collaborated with the Romans. Barabbas was probably one of these. The people of Israel weren’t looking for a spiritual renewal, but a military one in which the restored kingdom of David would be reestablished. Jesus knew all this, of course. I believe he sympathized with their frustrations, but he had wanted to restore God as the head of Israel in his person, but they didn’t want that. Anyway, that’s just my poor thoughts on the topic. 🙂
 
Hello Della,
I believe, and it’s only my idea, that he meant they didn’t know the full consequences of their actions. Sure, they knew they had sent an innocent man to his death–that alone made them guilty of breaking God’s law,…
Interesting viewpoint. I always thought that that the Centurion’s exclamation of His innocence after the fact was an anomaly, that most folks present saw Him as guilty of blasphemy, which I understand was punishable by death. Anyone reading the Gospel, though, could easily say that the crowd should have known His innocence. The Gospel does not delve deeply into the mindset of the crowd, we don’t get their POV.
but just what this death would mean they didn’t know or could not accept. And that {it?} was the end of all they held dear and the beginning of another era for them and for the world.
Yes, the “didn’t know” coincides with Jesus’ observation. So, a corollary questions are “Why could they not accept” and “why could they not accept the beginning of a new era?” Do the answers to these questions also fall into Jesus’ observation?
Even though Jesus had predicted their downfall, they still believed God would raise up another David to deliver them from the Romans. Instead, Jerusalem was destroyed, and the temple worship along with it. They were scattered to the four corners of the world Pretty big consequences, even without having rejected the Messiah.
I hadn’t ever understood that those were the consequences of hanging Jesus, but I can see how that makes some sense. It’s like, “if that hadn’t happened, then that would not, and that, etc.” I can see it.
I saw a very interesting TV show about assassins from ancient times and one of the groups they portrayed were the Jewish assassins who killed those who collaborated with the Romans. Barabbas was probably one of these. The people of Israel weren’t looking for a spiritual renewal, but a military one in which the restored kingdom of David would be reestablished. Jesus knew all this, of course. I believe he sympathized with their frustrations, but he had wanted to restore God as the head of Israel in his person, but they didn’t want that. Anyway, that’s just my poor thoughts on the topic. 🙂
Yes, that too makes sense. In fact, I heard or read somewhere that Barabbas was a militant - type, an insurgent, and that was why the crowd saw his value. Lucky guy!

Thanks for your response! If you are interested in answering the questions I raised above, I’d be happy to respond.
 
Hello Della, Interesting viewpoint. I always thought that that the Centurion’s exclamation of His innocence after the fact was an anomaly, that most folks present saw Him as guilty of blasphemy, which I understand was punishable by death. Anyone reading the Gospel, though, could easily say that the crowd should have known His innocence. The Gospel does not delve deeply into the mindset of the crowd, we don’t get their POV.
Well, we do get their viewpoint if we read their words and their actions, as well as Jesus’ own statements as to their motives. If taken as a whole it makes the most sense. Jesus’ enemies hated him long before they denounced him. Again and again, they tried to trap him into saying something they could use to condemn him. And when they did finally condemn him, they had people lie about what he said to get the Sanhedrin to denounce him. So, those who did the accusing knew perfectly well he hadn’t done the things they accused him of. The crowd, like all crowds, yelled for what they were told to yell for. I’m sure they stacked the crowd before Pilate with those who would yell what Jesus’ enemies want them to.
Yes, the “didn’t know” coincides with Jesus’ observation. So, a corollary questions are “Why could they not accept” and “why could they not accept the beginning of a new era?” Do the answers to these questions also fall into Jesus’ observation?
The era Jesus wanted to institute wasn’t the one they were hoping for. Also, the leaders of the people were jealous of Jesus because the people were listening to him instead of to them. We humans are fallen creatures who are easily corrupted. Power makes people do things they wouldn’t ordinarily do, and they wanted the Romans out, ASAP. Jesus simply wasn’t who they wanted with his call for universal brotherhood.
I hadn’t ever understood that those were the consequences of hanging Jesus, but I can see how that makes some sense. It’s like, “if that hadn’t happened, then that would not, and that, etc.” I can see it.
Indeed, Jesus wept over Jerusalem because he knew the consequences of Israel’s rejection and their desire to be free of Rome and to be a great nation again. They were thinking in strictly human terms, and in a way, rejecting God being their king instead of a mere man. In Christ they would have had both, but they didn’t want the kind of kingdom he came to establish.
Yes, that too makes sense. In fact, I heard or read somewhere that Barabbas was a militant - type, an insurgent, and that was why the crowd saw his value. Lucky guy!
One of the Gospel accounts calls him an insurgent. He was lucky merely in the earthly sense. Although I believe there is a tradition (small “t” tradition) that he became a believer, but I don’t know how reliable that is.
Thanks for your response! If you are interested in answering the questions I raised above, I’d be happy to respond.
You’re welcome. I’ve tried my best based on what I know. There’s one title I can give you, although I haven’t read it: The Day Christ Died. Those who have read it have given it good reviews. 🙂
 
Well, we do get their viewpoint if we read their words and their actions, as well as Jesus’ own statements as to their motives. If taken as a whole it makes the most sense. Jesus’ enemies hated him long before they denounced him. Again and again, they tried to trap him into saying something they could use to condemn him. And when they did finally condemn him, they had people lie about what he said to get the Sanhedrin to denounce him. So, those who did the accusing knew perfectly well he hadn’t done the things they accused him of.
Della, I agree with your post, but I think OneSheep is using a socratic method to draw readers into his view that no one willingly and knowingly rejects God. Therefore, your perspective that they knew “perfectly well” will be questioned.
The crowd, like all crowds, yelled for what they were told to yell for. I’m sure they stacked the crowd before Pilate with those who would yell what Jesus’ enemies want them to.
By bribery, intimidation, persuasion, and any other method that might work, yes, I think the crowd was fanned by the flame of Jesus’ enemies. But that is precisely why OneSheep claims they are not responsible for any sin, because they were ignorant, blind, threatened, etc. led astray through no fault of their own.
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The era Jesus wanted to institute wasn't the one they were hoping for.  Also, the leaders of the people were jealous of Jesus because the people were listening to him instead of to them.  We humans are fallen creatures who are easily corrupted.  Power makes people do things they wouldn't ordinarily do, and they wanted the Romans out, ASAP.  Jesus simply wasn't who they wanted with his call for universal brotherhood.
Yes, they were desiring an earthly Kingdom - even His Apostles!

So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” Acts 1:6

Sister Angelica is always callling the Apostles “dummies”. It is so cute, and so accurate.
Indeed, Jesus wept over Jerusalem because he knew the consequences of Israel’s rejection and their desire to be free of Rome and to be a great nation again. They were thinking in strictly human terms, and in a way, rejecting God being their king instead of a mere man. In Christ they would have had both, but they didn’t want the kind of kingdom he came to establish.
While I agree with you, I think OneSheep will construe this to mean that they are not to blame for their rejection, because they did it ignorantly and in blindness. Therefore they are to be “forgiven for they know not what they do”.
You’re welcome. I’ve tried my best based on what I know. There’s one title I can give you, although I haven’t read it: The Day Christ Died. Those who have read it have given it good reviews. 🙂
I don’t think any Catholic sources will be of use in this case, Della, because the goal is not really to learn what the Catholic faith teaches, but to squeeze the preconception into a Catholic cloak.
 
Della, I agree with your post, but I think OneSheep is using a socratic method to draw readers into his view that no one willingly and knowingly rejects God. Therefore, your perspective that they knew “perfectly well” will be questioned.
If so, he simply wrong about that, no offense to him. We are responsible for our actions, but we may not share the same culpability for an action that is intrinsically evil.
By bribery, intimidation, persuasion, and any other method that might work, yes, I think the crowd was fanned by the flame of Jesus’ enemies. But that is precisely why OneSheep claims they are not responsible for any sin, because they were ignorant, blind, threatened, etc. led astray through no fault of their own.
All the methods were certainly wrong, but again, how culpable each person was who participated is something only God can judge.
Yes, they were desiring an earthly Kingdom - even His Apostles!
So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” Acts 1:6
Sister Angelica is always callling the Apostles “dummies”. It is so cute, and so accurate.
I was going to mention that but didn’t want to take the attention off Jesus’ enemies, but it’s something that adds to the picture. :tiphat:
While I agree with you, I think OneSheep will construe this to mean that they are not to blame for their rejection, because they did it ignorantly and in blindness. Therefore they are to be “forgiven for they know not what they do”.
There’s such a thing as willful blindness and ignorance. I think, rather, that Jesus meant they didn’t fully realize the consequences of their actions, otherwise it makes no sense–at least to me it doesn’t. 🙂
I don’t think any Catholic sources will be of use in this case, Della, because the goal is not really to learn what the Catholic faith teaches, but to squeeze the preconception into a Catholic cloak.
Those who take that approach (I can’t speak for OneSheep) are wrong-headed. Catholic teaching speaks for itself. It doesn’t need to be squeezed into anyone’s philosophy. If the philosophy is in line with Christ’s teachings, it’s fine. If not, it should be noted, but rejected as not useful.
 
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Hello, Guanophore!
I would love to respond to your post, but first, a question.

Can we agree that we will remain charitable, that first and foremost we will write charitably to one another?
One must agree to this forum rule if one wishes to remain a member. I have complete trust and confidence that, if I ever fail in my charity (this does happen to me on occasion), you will provide me with immediate and appropriate fraternal correction. 😃

You know I have difficulty with your definition of “crowd”. I suggested that Jesus made the prayer of forgiveness about the soldiers that were nailing Him to the cross:

“When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.” Luke 23:34

This context seems to place Jesus with his executioners and the other criminals at the time of His prayer.

But I noticed during the passion reading today some other references to who made up the “crowd”.

It starts with…

“So Judas, procuring a band of soldiers and some officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, went there with lanterns and torches and weapons.” John 18:3

“So the band of soldiers and their captain and the officers of the Jews seized Jesus and bound him. First they led him to Annas …” John 18:12-13

"Now the servants[a] and officers had made a charcoal fire, because it was cold, and they were standing and warming themselves…Jn. 18:18

“One of the servants** of the high priest, a kinsman of the man whose ear Peter had cut off…” Jn. 18:25 (there was also a maid that knew John)

"When the chief priests and the officers saw him, they cried out, “Crucify him, crucify him!” John 19:6

So we have chief priests and officers, it does not specify if they are Roman or Temple. From the beginning there was a detachment with one Roman Captain (Tribune) and “some officers from the chief priests” (part of the temple guard?), possibly servants of the high priest, and members of the Pharisee party.

“They cried out, “Away with him, away with him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.” 16 Then he handed him over to them to be crucified.” John 19:15

This passage does not describe a collection of random Jews from the marketplace, but specific persons invested in making sure that “one person die for the people”.

Jesus had this to say about them: "Jesus answered him, “You would have no power over me unless it had been given you from above; therefore he who delivered me to you has the greater sin.” John 19:11

Jesus affirms that Pilate has sin, and those who brought Jesus to him have “greater sin”.

Therefore, they knew enough to be culpablel for their actions, and they are not excused for their sins because they are too ignorant and blind.**
 
One must agree to this forum rule if one wishes to remain a member. I have complete trust and confidence that, if I ever fail in my charity (this does happen to me on occasion), you will provide me with immediate and appropriate fraternal correction. 😃

You know I have difficulty with your definition of “crowd”. I suggested that Jesus made the prayer of forgiveness about the soldiers that were nailing Him to the cross:

“When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.” Luke 23:34

This context seems to place Jesus with his executioners and the other criminals at the time of His prayer.

But I noticed during the passion reading today some other references to who made up the “crowd”.

It starts with…

“So Judas, procuring a band of soldiers and some officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, went there with lanterns and torches and weapons.” John 18:3

“So the band of soldiers and their captain and the officers of the Jews seized Jesus and bound him. First they led him to Annas …” John 18:12-13

"Now the servants[a] and officers had made a charcoal fire, because it was cold, and they were standing and warming themselves…Jn. 18:18

“One of the servants** of the high priest, a kinsman of the man whose ear Peter had cut off…” Jn. 18:25 (there was also a maid that knew John)

"When the chief priests and the officers saw him, they cried out, “Crucify him, crucify him!” John 19:6

So we have chief priests and officers, it does not specify if they are Roman or Temple. From the beginning there was a detachment with one Roman Captain (Tribune) and “some officers from the chief priests” (part of the temple guard?), possibly servants of the high priest, and members of the Pharisee party.

“They cried out, “Away with him, away with him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.” 16 Then he handed him over to them to be crucified.” John 19:15

This passage does not describe a collection of random Jews from the marketplace, but specific persons invested in making sure that “one person die for the people”.

Jesus had this to say about them: "Jesus answered him, “You would have no power over me unless it had been given you from above; therefore he who delivered me to you has the greater sin.” John 19:11

Jesus affirms that Pilate has sin, and those who brought Jesus to him have “greater sin”.

Therefore, they knew enough to be culpablel for their actions, and they are not excused for their sins because they are too ignorant and blind.**

Good morning, guanophore!

So, I think you may have thought my second question was rhetorical, but it wasn’t. Can we shake hands and agree to be charitable?

Telling Della what I think (though somewhat accurate) was not a good start, but I continue to see your good intent.

Something to reflect on: are you building walls, or are you building bridges?

God bless you, guanophore, on this holy Saturday

🙂
 
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