What did Voltaire mean by "if God didn't exist, it would be necessary to invent him"?

[davidv]

Why would being immortal make any value objective?

It wouldn’t. That wasn’t my point.

If value is created in the the mind as NonServiam claims, then values will exist eternally, as God’s mind is eternal. And since God’s mind in not ours, his values are objective and unchanging.

 

[tonyrey]

It wouldn’t. That wasn’t my point.

If value is created in the the mind as NonServiam claims, then values will exist eternally, as God’s mind is eternal. And since God’s mind in not ours, his values are objective and unchanging.

Of course if values were created in human minds which are not eternal - as physicalists maintain - they would be neither objective nor eternal nor significant!

 

[Abba]

Hello davidv and tonyrey,

Okay, I am lost here.

Are you guys saying that thoughts and values are eternal because they are produced by the human mind which is eternal (as the mind is part of the soul which is eternal)? If so, I do not see how. I understand the soul is eternal but it does not necessarily follow the thoughts are eternal just because they are products of an eternal mind. Thoughts do not exist outside or independent of the thinker. I would think that if the thinker forgets the thoughts do not exist.

Also, isn’t it the case that not all values are objectives or extrinsic as they can be intrinsic? I can decide to be happy.

‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.’” – Hebrews 10:14-17

Just wondering…:coffeeread:

 

[tonyrey]

Hello davidv and tonyrey,

Okay, I am lost here.

Are you guys saying that thoughts and values are eternal because they are produced by the human mind which is eternal (as the mind is part of the soul which is eternal)? If so, I do not see how. I understand the soul is eternal but it does not necessarily follow the thoughts are eternal just because they are products of an eternal mind. Thoughts do not exist outside or independent of the thinker. I would think that if the thinker forgets the thoughts do not exist.

Also, isn’t it the case that not all values are objectives or extrinsic as they can be intrinsic? I can decide to be happy.

‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.’” – Hebrews 10:14-17

Just wondering…:coffeeread:

Truths and values are eternal because they are objective and immutable. For example, existence is valuable because it is a source of opportunities for love, development, enjoyment, creativity and fulfilment. That is an example of an objective, immutable truth which is independent of a person’s thoughts. Even before we existed on this planet life wasn’t valueless!

That’s it for today…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

“The atheists are for the most part impudent and misguided scholars who reason badly, and who not being able to understand the creation, the origin of evil, and other difficulties, have recourse to the hypothesis of the eternity of things and of inevitability….That was how things went with the Roman Senate which was almost entirely composed of atheists in theory and in practice, that is to say, who believed in neither a Providence nor a future life; this senate was an assembly of philosophers, of sensualists and ambitious men, all very dangerous men, who ruined the republic." (from Voltaire’s essay “On Atheism”).

 

[John21652]

It is necessary to reinvent him if he commands me to have sex only in marriage. I would rather close my eyes to the existence of that God, and pretend that he really wants me to have as much sex as i possibly can in any way shape or form.

Tell me why not.

To prevent the harm you’d cause, we’d need a God, a higher authority, to set rules for your behaviour, because you wouldn’t listen to your fellow man, who would be harmed by your behaviour. Being so arrogantly hedonistic, you’d need the threat of eternal damnation and the denial of an ultimate and eternal love to make you re-think your ways. The rules would be called ‘morals’, of course.

 

[tonyrey]

“The atheists are for the most part impudent and misguided scholars who reason badly, and who not being able to understand the creation, the origin of evil, and other difficulties, have recourse to the hypothesis of the eternity of things and of inevitability….That was how things went with the Roman Senate which was almost entirely composed of atheists in theory and in practice, that is to say, who believed in neither a Providence nor a future life; this senate was an assembly of philosophers, of sensualists and ambitious men, all very dangerous men, who ruined the republic." (from Voltaire’s essay “On Atheism”).

“It is a serious question among them whether they [Africans] are descended from monkeys or whether the monkeys come from them. Our wise men have said that man was created in the image of God. Now here is a lovely image of the Divine Maker: a flat and black nose with little or hardly any intelligence. A time will doubtless come when these animals will know how to cultivate the land well, beautify their houses and gardens, and know the paths of the stars: one needs time for everything.” !

• Les Lettres d’Amabed (1769): Septième Lettre d’Amabed [6]

“Ours is assuredly the most ridiculous, the most absurd and the most bloody religion which has ever infected this world. Your Majesty will do the human race an eternal service by extirpating this infamous superstition, I do not say among the rabble, who are not worthy of being enlightened and who are apt for every yoke; I say among honest people, among men who think, among those who wish to think. … My one regret in dying is that I cannot aid you in this noble enterprise, the finest and most respectable which the human mind can point out.”

• Letters of Voltaire and Frederick the Great (New York: Brentano’s, 1927), transl. Richard Aldington, letter 156 from Voltaire to Frederick II of Prussia, 1767-01-05

Voltaire’s concept of God was a remote deity who seems unconcerned about what happens on a miniscule planet in an immense universe. Yet shortly before he died he said:

“I die adoring God, loving my friends, not hating my enemies, and detesting superstition.”

 

[Abba]

Thank you in advance.

I think Voltaire meant that if God did not exist, humans would invent him anyway, because, given human nature, in order for individuals and societies to exist in harmony, humans need for a God to exist in order to have order in their existence. The belief in the existence of God provides the harmony in society needed for its members to live well (and one may add for the survival of the specie). To say that, rather he exists or not, humans would event God as a result of the human need to have order, social justice and harmony to this existence.

This argument can be used against the existence of God. For, someone can argue that the very fact many people believe in the existence of God and have done so historically is meaningless in the light of the understanding that humans have a need to believe in the existence of God. So, that rather God exists or not people would event him anyway. Of course, since Voltaire was a deist this would be to misinterpret his meaning but, nonetheless, the argument can be used against his deism.

I do not appreciate his argument because it is very limited. It has some truth in it but it is what I would call a truth presented out of context and limited. This is exactly it’s weakness. It’s like taking a lobster to a kid who lives out in the desert and telling him that this is edible and delicious and it is not from around here. But, not telling him about the ocean nor about the other species that are in the ocean, never mind, actually taking the kid to the ocean so he can see for himself and take a dip and maybe even go sailing.

The fact that belief in God is good for humans demonstrate the love of God for us and that he is our maker. It demonstrates his goodness and beauty. But, I think that if we only note and appreciate in a pragmatic way belief in God we miss the boat. We need to go beyond the ‘usefulness’ it is to humans to come to know God. Who is this God who designed human nature as such that for its own well being it needs to accept his existence? Did God create human beings with such a need just so they can live better in this existence or is there more? It is because Voltaire does not delve in that ‘more’ and is satisfied with a utilitarian understanding that he fails.

I think Voltaire is the man with the lobster but, he never went to the sea.

Peace,

Abba

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Abba

It is because Voltaire does not delve in that ‘more’ and is satisfied with a utilitarian understanding that he fails.

True. It is not just useful to believe in God. It is all praise and thanksgiving.

Though Voltaire railed against superstition, both of the Church and of atheism, one cannot help but suspect that his Deism was little more than a metaphysical superstition.

 

[Abba]

True. It is not just useful to believe in God. It is all praise and thanksgiving.

Though Voltaire railed against superstition, both of the Church and of atheism, one cannot help but suspect that his Deism was little more than a metaphysical superstition.

Right.

It’s like that man with the lobster in the desert. The kids asks him where is its habitat and the man starts inventing and imagining possible habitats… Ah, well, I think it is where there are a lot of huge mountains with many caves and the caves are humid. Tralari, tralaro… It sometimes takes courage to find God. Why not just admit; I do not know, but, let’s set out on a journey and find out.

One thing I respect about Plato is that he destroyed his poems. When he grew enough intellectually to recognize that they were a product of his imagination and emotions and that following these is not the way to seek knowledge - he destroyed them.

Voltaire was too proud to recognize his errors and discard some of his misconceptions and he lacked courage, so he kept it all and just kept juggling. :juggle:

He was a member of the aristocracy. It’s nice and comfy there - and then there were the plebeians. What a waste of a good Jesuit education! They fed him and he turned back to bite them. I don’t think that the contradictions in his thinking can be reconciled. :juggle:

I don’t waste time reading stuff of people whose work I have no appreciation for. But, I like one of his quotes - false science makes atheist, true science makes man prostrate before the deity. Well said but he has no foundation to base his wisdom. I am actually bored with Voltaire. I am out of here.

Here is a nice website with a lot of his works:
oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=352&chapter=53856&layout=html&Itemid=27

Peace,

Abba

 

[perro_sarnoso]

Thank you in advance.

Because God is the only being whose existence is necessary.

Everyone and everything else is contingent.

God is the only being that cannot not be. Voltaire realized this and came to the inevitably logical conclusion.

 

[Patty23]

Because God is the only being whose existence is necessary.

Everyone and everything else is contingent.

God is the only being that cannot not be. Voltaire realized this and came to the inevitably logical conclusion.

I’m sorry but that’s not quite what he meant. Search for Sartre’s Existentialism is a Humanism and start with the paragraph that starts with the sentence “abandonment”. I provided the link for you.

marxists.org/reference/archive/sartre/works/exist/sartre.htm