What did we use before the Tridentine Mass?

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Thats good to hear that some Dominican communities still use their rite. I was told that the reason why they discontinued it that it would be too expensive to print missalettes in every language where the order is represented.

I grew up in a Carmelite parish where I was an altar boy. One day, I served Mass for a Dominican priest and a Passionist (Roman Rite). So I served 3 rites in one day!

I was in Milan a few years ago, but had no opportunity to assist at Mass. I would like to see the Ambrosian and Mozarabic Rites.
 
Was the earliest Mass said in Latin, Aramaic, Greek or Hebrew ?
 
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tom.wineman:
Was the earliest Mass said in Latin, Aramaic, Greek or Hebrew ?
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Well, given that the earliest Masses would have been said by the apostles for Palestinian Jewish converts, I’m betting on Aramaic.

(And yes, I know that there was no such place as Palestine at that time, but the term “Palestinian Jew” is a convenient way to distinguish them from “Hellenistic Jews.”)

DaveBj (language geek)
 
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DaveBj:
Well, given that the earliest Masses would have been said by the apostles for Palestinian Jewish converts, I’m betting on Aramaic.

(And yes, I know that there was no such place as Palestine at that time, but the term “Palestinian Jew” is a convenient way to distinguish them from “Hellenistic Jews.”)

DaveBj (language geek)
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I am thinking you are right, Aramaic for sure in Galilee among the Jews there (the gentiles mostly spoke Greek there). Possibly Aramaic in Jerusalem too. The diaspora Jewish community was mainly Greek speaking all points west and north of Palestine (generally the whole empire outside of Palestine). A good case can be made for Greek use in the Jewish colonies of southern India as well as whatever languages were current there.

It is this Greek speaking Jewish diaspora which incubated the early church as it grew, whether they were happy about it or not. And they used the Septuagint.

It is known that the church in Rome used Greek until the fourth century, and I am sure someone here could give the date and the reigning Pope when the decision was made to change to Latin! 🙂

Michael
 
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Trad_Catholic:
The Tridentine Mass substantially has been the same since St. Gregory the Great (c. AD 590). He also wrote most of the chants still used today. The TLM is closest to the Mass of the Apostles.
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I think I missed something in reading all the the threads of this post, but what does the acronym “TLM” mean? Sorry if I missed the answer already.
 
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jkalange:
I think I missed something in reading all the the threads of this post, but what does the acronym “TLM” mean? Sorry if I missed the answer already.
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Traditional Latin Mass or Tridentine Latin Mass.
 
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tom.wineman:
Was the earliest Mass said in Latin, Aramaic, Greek or Hebrew ?
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This IMHO is a very interesting question because it really asks when and where a “mass” began to be formed (an ordered rite commemorating the Sacrifice of the Christ), as opposed to a local collection of prayers, hymns, and Eucharistic meal with little formalism. Perhaps these began to be recognizable in the late 2nd century? Does someone have a good reference for this?

As to language, Hebrew had not been used as a common language for several centuries before Christ; Aramaic was the Semitic language used throughout most of the old Babylonian Empire. I suggest that Latin in the Western Empire and Greek in the Eastern were used in the first formalized “masses” (which took their name from the Latin ceremonial dismissal, of course).
 
I found an EWTN link on the rites of the Catholic Church, which is more complete. It doesn’t address prior versions of the Roman Rite, but it does address the several other rites that are in full communion with the Holy Father. There are more than I expected, so you may want to check it out.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/rites.htm

Enjoy…
 
I started reading some of the writings of the Early Church Fathers, there are descriptions of liturgies from the 4th Century. There are two liturgies outlined, and they are surprisingly similar to the N.O.
I had read that the reason for the changes to the New Order were partly to bring back those traditions. This does NOT change my preference for the TLM, but it does show a little more historic validity for the changes that were made.
 
I do support the Traditional Latin Mass. Lyoncoeur, do you translators sometimes don’t follow the text and add words or takeout words so that it agrees with their own theories.An example of this is the use of the word presider or presbyter instead of priest.
 
Again, while the NO missal my somwhat resmble the Roman mass before it had the gallacian influences added to it, it only does so under these conditions.

1.) The priest facing the altar, in the same direction of the parishoners, in the early church the altar also being the tomb of a saint or martyr.

2.) The mass being celebrated in a more formal liturgical language.

3.) The Roman Canon being used, the Confetior being used

4.) No lay ministers being used in the liturgy

I do not know much about the offertory used in the early church. Certainly the TLM offertory was mostly Gallacian based, since the Dominican Offertory was quite a simple form, but from what I understand, the NO Offertory is based off a Hebrew prayer.
 
I don’t have the specifics in front of me, but from what I remember the Mass has changed several times from the time of the Apostles to now. For instance, in the TM, on Christmas Eve, the Agnus Dei was not receited because in the old Mass,it wasn’t receited. Up until about the year 250, the Mass was receited in Greek. (Remember Kyrie Eleyison? Thats Greek, not Latin).

yes, the Eastern Churches still use their old rites. For instance, during Lent, in the Eastern Churches we do not celebrate the Divine Liturgy during the week. A ceremony called "The Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts "(similar to the Communion service on Good Friday in the Western Church). According to legend it was invented by Pope St. Gregory.
 
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Trad_Catholic:
The Tridentine Mass substantially has been the same since St. Gregory the Great (c. AD 590). He also wrote most of the chants still used today. The TLM is closest to the Mass of the Apostles.
Click to expand...
If you check the Catholic Encyclopedia there is little mention of Gregory being associated with music until a biographer mentioned it 200 years after his death.
The Tridentine Mass is certainly not close to the Mass of the Apostles, which was in fact a passover meal.
 
That’s a very interesting question and I thank everyone for their (name removed by moderator)ut. I had NO idea that the “Tridentine” mass was NOT the mass of ALL times as has been the usual reference on it’s use.

I do know the mass has had changes all through the years. If anyone wants to go back to the mass of the apostles, then I guess we should be talking Greek? Am I right? But why do we need a Pope or the catechism if we don’t follow what they explain to us. Are we trying to “re-invent” the wheel?
 
New member. I did it then, and have recently posted a response to something similar. It happens, and who knows: it just may revive a topic.
 
The Traditional Latin Mass is ancient. It’s from the Apostles. The Society of St. Pius X celebrates the True Mass. You should find a good traditional Catholic priest to help you on your journey. The Traditional Latin Mass developed over the centuries.

Today is the Feast of St. Sixtus I who deemed that it was forbidden for Catholic laymen to touch the sacred vessels. He reigned in the early 100s.
 
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